A la recherche du Third Programme perdu

[amateur51]

I've just found three examples of old-style Third programme talks by Deryck Cooke and it made me all nostalgic about bothe the content, the style and the time allocated to it.

The first is from 1960 and Cooke talks about his work unravelling what Mahler left behind of his Symphony No 10. There is also a performance here of the early drafts of Cooke's work by conducted by Berthold Goldschmidt. On the new Testament 3CD release, there is a CD devoted to this talk and performance each, and another gives us the performance of 13 August 1964, at the Proms, when Goldschmidt conducted the London Symphony Orchestra in the world premiere of the Cooke realization.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/DeryckCookeWeb/videos/1

This next recording comes from !970 and here Cooke gives a 15 minute pre-concert talk about Mahler symphony No 4 and the songs from Des Knaben Wunderhorn.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/DeryckCookeWeb/videos/4/

Lastly, Cooke does a comparison of performances of Mahler Symphony No 4' in an attempt to divine an authentically Mahlerian performing tradition.' There is no date given for this 49 minute talk but Deryck Cooke died sadly young at 57 in 1976 and the performances available for his comparison will give listeners a clue or two.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/DeryckCookeWeb/videos/2/

Elitist radio?

Marvellous radio?

I'd love to hear your thoughts :smiley:

[Bryn]

Thanks for those links, a51. The first downloads quite easily as an FLV file from which a 128kbps joint stereo (no idea why that was used - it's a mono source, afet all) mp3 can be extracted. A very handy 'pre-hear' of at least some of the forthcoming Testament content.

[Sydney Grew]

I've just found three examples of old-style Third programme talks by Deryck Cooke and it made me all nostalgic about the content, the style and the time allocated to it. . . . I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks for those links - to which we will listen properly in a few days' time.

Here: http://www.sendspace.com/file/aiihg4 is a sixteen-minute talk we recorded from the Third Programme on the day previous to the 28th June 1965, when the first two acts of Schönberg's opera Moses and Aaron were for the first time performed in Great Britain. Mr. Hall the producer called it "the only great tragedy this century has produced." The talk consists of a description of the opera and musical excerpts from its pivotal moments, which we remember finding very helpful and memorable at that time.

History does not relate the identity of the male speaker, but could this too have been Deryck Cooke? Some one will know. There is also a short comment from the second Mrs. Schönberg, who had come over from her northern American exile especially for the performance. Her view, as well as that of the interviewer, and that of the composer himself she says, was that the opera was essentially complete in its two musical acts, and that the script of the third act was "only for reading"!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Let's not get too nostalgic. Remember too those Hans Keller "Potter's Wheel" style fillers which were factually reliable, but rather like listening to a dalek in auto mode.

[french frank]

Let's not get too nostalgic. Remember too those Hans Keller "Potter's Wheel" style fillers which were factually reliable, but rather like listening to a dalek in auto mode.Alps, I've been emailed and asked to post this talk by Hans Keller (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VxIIJWlyU) in response to your 'dalek in auto mode' comment :laugh:

[Wary]

That Schoenberg talk really doesn't sound like Deryck Cooke's voice. And Cooke didn't like Schoenberg very much, if you read his 'Vindications' collection.

I wonder if that was Humphrey Searle?

W.

[Chris Newman]

Alps, I've been emailed and asked to post this talk by Hans Keller (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VxIIJWlyU) in response to your 'dalek in auto mode' comment :laugh:

Although Hans Keller came across as an earnest and very serious man (rather like Gerard Hoffnung without that magic twinkle in the voice) he was (along with fellow critic Percy M. Young) a complete football fanatic. They both wrote books on the game and Keller was for many years Football Correspondent for the Observer. He did try to crack jokes in his talks but without a hint of humour showing.

Perhaps his greatest moment came when he and Susan Bradshaw instigated the infamous 'Piotr Zak' hoax on unsuspecting Third Programme listeners http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_Zak not on April the 1st but in June of 1961. Here is a bit of the "performance" by Keller and Bradshaw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6maWI85kSxU

He was perhaps a bit out of his depth with Pink Floyd but had the good grace to say not enjoying them was his fault. Funny to see a young Robert Robinson who has hardly changed over the years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2vc7XA5M7Y&feature=related

[Mark Sealey]

Are there many (any) other such clips on You Tube: could be useful in helping jog memories about just how outstanding the Third was?

And - even - in helping build a platform from which to advocate making a better job of updating the Third than has been done so far :-).

[amateur51]

Great stuff Chris - Keller's voice brings it all back. My word, he packed a lot in ... and there was no iPlayer to enable you to do 'what did he say?' playback :yikes:

[aeolium]

There is a list of Isaiah Berlin's radio broadcasts here, many of them on the Third and Radio 3. Some items are available to listen to, either on Youtube or elsewhere:

http://berlin.wolf.ox.ac.uk/lists/broadcasts/index.html

[ahinton]

That Schoenberg talk really doesn't sound like Deryck Cooke's voice. And Cooke didn't like Schoenberg very much, if you read his 'Vindications' collection.

I wonder if that was Humphrey Searle?

W.
No; I've just listened to abit of it and, although I'm uncertain as to the identity of the speaker, it certainly wasn't Humphrey Searle; I'd have recognised his voice from having studied with him, for all that I did so more years ago than I care to remember...

[Sydney Grew]

Whoever it is, he towards the end pronounces "allegory" in a curious way, emphasizing the second syllable, and eliding the third almost to vanishing point, making it essentially a word of three syllables: a pronunciation not sanctioned by the Oxford English Dictionary and one we have never before heard.

[kernelbogey]

Whoever it is, he towards the end pronounces "allegory" in a curious way, emphasizing the second syllable, and eliding the third almost to vanishing point, making it essentially a word of three syllables: a pronunciation not sanctioned by the Oxford English Dictionary and one we have never before heard.

Miserere nobis.

[PJPJ]

The third clip about M4 is fascinating - how can I save as mp3?

[Bryn]

Actually, the FLVs for M2 and M4 have their audio in aac format. Only M1 uses mp3. You would need to use something like HiDownload Platinum Edition to grab the FLV, then FLVExtract.exe to extract the aac file. That can then be transcoded to mp3 with Free M4a to MP3 Converter.

PM me if that all seems too much.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Alps, I've been emailed and asked to post this talk by Hans Keller (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VxIIJWlyU) in response to your 'dalek in auto mode' comment :laugh:Wow! Thank's for that. I really enjoyed it. What nostalgia!

[PJPJ]

Actually, the FLVs for M2 and M4 have their audio in aac format. Only M1 uses mp3. You would need to use something like HiDownload Platinum Edition to grab the FLV, then FLVExtract.exe to extract the aac file. That can then be transcoded to mp3 with Free M4a to MP3 Converter.

PM me if that all seems too much.

Many thanks, Bryn - I'll have a go and PM you if I fail!

[vinteuil]

Alps, I've been emailed and asked to post this talk by Hans Keller (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VxIIJWlyU) in response to your 'dalek in auto mode' comment :laugh:

ahh, Hans Keller. That voice - along with those of Isaiah Berlin and Basil Lam - is my memory of listening to the Third as a child. I saw them as my rôle models; theirs was the world I wanted to inhabit. Is there, I wonder, anyone currently on R3 who a young me wd look up to in such a way?

[Steerpike]

Lastly, Cooke does a comparison of performances of Mahler Symphony No 4' in an attempt to divine an authentically Mahlerian performing tradition.' There is no date given for this 49 minute talk but Deryck Cooke died sadly young at 57 in 1976 and the performances available for his comparison will give listeners a clue or two.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/DeryckCookeWeb/videos/2/

Many thanks for this link, amateur 51.

As a clue to the date of Cooke's talk, he mentions round about the 2 minute mark that the Klemperer recording with the Philharmonia was issued 'a few months ago'. The recording was made in April 1961, though I don't know when it was first issued, but I imagine that puts the talk in the early 60s.

[Sydney Grew]

http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/pic200/drz000/z085/z08598eurjy.jpg

HERE (http://www.sendspace.com/file/32k684) is a recording I made in 1966 of the Leamington man Wilfrid Mellars, in a discussion with a northern American named Earle [sic] Brown, said to be a "sidekick of Cage." I have always loved the sound of Mellers's opening phrase: "Well Earle Brown . . ."

Indeed for the worldly-wise there are many chuckles in this programme, which lasts forty minutes.

I had not until recently been aware of Mr. Mellers's having himself been a composer with a considerable number of works of all kinds to his name. He wrote, for example, two symphonies. But they are both marked "withdrawn" in the Grove list; indeed something like nine of what appear to be major works from his pen are thus marked, and that includes late works as well as early ones - a fact I find curious since most composers continue do they not to find some value in the works they issue at the various stages in life.

Mellers also wrote prolifically (or prolificly if you prefer) on music, both in book form and in journals. He was in fact rather influential as an arbiter of taste, and here we must take issue with him, since he encouraged the introduction and increasing acceptance of "popular music" into hitherto serious circles - groups of youths ululating and thwacking their "guitars," that sort of carry-on. One knows in one's heart that behaviour of that kind is unacceptable does one not.

Indeed the fact that so many British schools of to-day are more like prisons than schools is in the end largely due to Mellers's activities. He misguidedly attempted to "bridge a gap" but in fact permitted cultural standards to slide. Another result of that is the present lamentable and squalid condition of the B.B.C.

[Sydney Grew]

http://www.royalphilharmonicsociety.org.uk/resources/images/SusanBradshawmedweb.jpg

Here:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/809kw5

is the last recording of old broadcast talks we have readily available. This one, which we recorded in 1966, goes on for thirty-two minutes. It is given by the talented pianiste Susan Bradshaw, who presents her own most interesting illustrated exposition of all the compositions of M. Boulez. (And the announcer introduces her very correctly as "Miss Bradshaw," which would regrettably not be done to-day.)

[Bryn]

http://www.royalphilharmonicsociety.org.uk/resources/images/SusanBradshawmedweb.jpg

Here:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/809kw5

is the last recording of old broadcast talks we have readily available. This one, which we recorded in 1966, goes on for thirty-two minutes. It is given by the talented pianiste Susan Bradshaw, who presents her own most interesting illustrated exposition of all the compositions of M. Boulez. (And the announcer introduces her very correctly as "Miss Bradshaw," which would regrettably not be done to-day.)

Sadly, today she might more politely be refered to as "the late Susan Bradshaw". She and John Tilbury gave the first performance of Cardew's Boulavogue at Wigmore Hall, some 9 months before the composer's untimely death at the hands of a hit and run driver. On June 23rd 1984 she took part in a relay perfomance of Satie's Vexations at the Almeida Theatre. After doing her one hour stint she repared to the bar and ventured that she did not much lie the piece, but it was for charity, so she had agreed to particpate.

[Mark Sealey]

Bryn,

Have you been (has anyone been) to, has there ever been, a complete performance of Vexations?


…took part in a relay perfomance of Satie's Vexations…

[MrGongGong]

I've been to a couple

its lightweight stuff compared to what La Monte Young demands !
:biggrin:

[Bryn]

I've been to a couple

its lightweight stuff compared to what La Monte Young demands !
:biggrin:

La Monte Young demanding? In what way? :whistle:

[Bryn]

Bryn,

Have you been (has anyone been) to, has there ever been, a complete performance of Vexations?

Only of the relay variety, and I've attended three of those, including the Almeida one already referred to (which I also recorded to a series of cassettes, though unfortunately only a few stretches remain).

[MrGongGong]

I think (and i'll have to check ) that there have been a couple of non relay performances with a single player
as to La Monte Young
a piece like "Dream House" (is it a piece or a place to be ?) had a version that lasted from September 1966 to January 1970. Composition 1960 #7 could be seen to be much more or a marathon for the audience (but ultimately very satisfying)
:smiley:

[Bryn]

Came to think of it, two of the performances if Vexations I attended were not so much relays and shared. Both were given by Christopher Hobbs and Gavin Bryars. This was around four decades ago.

[Alf-Prufrock]

... which I also recorded to a series of cassettes, though unfortunately only a few stretches remain

Why on earth would you want a complete recording of Vexations? It would seem a waste of, what, a dozen cassettes or more. (How many did it take?)

Surely you were not intending to listen to the composition all over again? :doh:

[Bryn]

Firstly because there were some 20 pianists involved (some played two stints) and their different approaches to the piece were of interest to me (from John TIlbury's highly consistent performance without pedalling, so relying totally upon finger legato technique, via John White's exquisitely 'salon' approach, to Michael Nyman's attempt at playing each repetition differently) and secondly as raw material for a project I was working on at the time which involved multi-tracking the 840 cycles as one (with, effectively, 840 simultaneous performances of a single cycle.

[Dave2002]

Only of the relay variety, and I've attended three of those, including the Almeida one already referred to (which I also recorded to a series of cassettes, though unfortunately only a few stretches remain).Ah - so you like stretching tapes do you? Not the same with CD, DVDs or downloads is it? Do you have a preferred process for the stretching? :laugh:

[Alf-Prufrock]

Firstly because there were some 20 pianists involved (some played two stints) and their different approaches to the piece were of interest to me (from John TIlbury's highly consistent performance without pedalling, so relying totally upon finger legato technique, via John White's exquisitely 'salon' approach, to Michael Nyman's attempt at playing each repetition differently) and secondly as raw material for a project I was working on at the time which involved multi-tracking the 840 cycles as one (with, effectively, 840 simultaneous performances of a single cycle.

I have just seen your reply and thank you for your courteousness after what seems to me now to be a brusque and ill-considered comment of mine. What you did with Vexations seems to be fascinating, and I apologise for my flippancy.

[Bryn]

The result was made available in data compressed format on the BBC Radio 3 site for a couple of years, from late 2000 or early 2001. I forget exactly when it went 'live' but I recently chanced upon the payment advice for my contribution to the experimental website project which included it. The payment dated 14 September 2000. Some here may even have heard (if not listened to) the item. I was amused to recieve an email from an Australian gentleman who rather liked it.