English (or British) patriotic songs - advice appreciated

[Bert Coules]

I'm looking for patriotic songs from (or before) the very early 1700s, say up to 1710. Any suggestions will be very gratefully received.

Many thanks.

[Bert Coules]

Should I have posted this in the Early Music section?

[french frank]

Should I have posted this in the Early Music section?The best place is probably where most people would be likely to read it. I'll leave it here, but you can post it again on the Early Music board if you think it might catch the attention of the specialists.

[doversoul]

Bert
I haven’t read the content yet (just found it), but will this be any use?

http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511693854&cid=CBO9780511693854A013&p=10

[Bert Coules]

FF, thanks: I'll post it again in Early Music.


I haven’t read the content yet (just found it), but will this be any use?Thanks very much for that. The book sounds just what I'm after, but unfortunately only a brief extract from the relevant chapter seems to be available online, even after registering. I'll see if I can track down a copy.

Incidentally, according to Amazon, the book (which was first published in 1895) is or was regarded as controversial for the author's claims that "the earliest known free instrumental compositions, as well as the polyphonic style, originated in England during the fifteenth century". Sounds fascinating.

[doversoul]

According to the ‘Buy the Book’ link, the publication date is 2009 but I expect that is of this print on demand edition. I wonder if it is a revised version. Either way, this chapter looks very interesting. If you manage to get hold of it, do report back. It will be most welcome on the Early Music Board!!

[MickyD]

Peter Holman and the Parley of Instruments did a nice CD called "Fairest Isle" on Hyperion, but most of the patriotic songs date from the 18th century...it's an attractive programme, though!

[doversoul]

This chapter does say 1701-1800, so I hope Bert won’t be disappointed. From the brief description of the chapter, English music wasn’t particularly exciting around 1701. Here is the opening paragraph.


WE have now reached the prosaic period, when England, for 300 years distinguished by its musical skill, sank so far from its old repute as to acquire the name of an unmusical country, a disrepute which it still retains so far that many read with astonishment and even incredulity of its glorious achievements in the past.

[Bert Coules]

Thanks for the replies. I don't need a good or even a distinguished song, just one with (preferably over-the-top) patriotic sentiments. Rule, Britannia (which is a good song, of course) would be ideal if it wasn't a few years too late.

[Flosshilde]

Bert, are you looking for popular songs, or, for want of a better word, 'art' songs? If the latter there would probably be some by Purcell?

I wonder if the political situation would have a bearing on songs, as well? The period you mention is about the time of the Act of Union, which could/would have had an impact on political/patriotic songs.

[Bert Coules]

Definitely more popular than art. To be sung by a small group of men in a round-the-campfire sort of situation.

[doversoul]

Bert
In that case, how about something like this (I haven’t checked all the songs so it may be completely usefless)?

http://www.contemplator.com/england/

[Ferretfancy]

Isn't it rather the point that patriotic songs would have been uncommon before the Act of Union? Elizabethans and Stuarts would probably not have recognised the idea in the way we think of it. The sort of music of the period that we enjoy today would only have been rarely heard in small towns and villages outside court circles.

[Bert Coules]

Doversoul, thanks for the link.

FF, you have a point, of course. Any of the obvious (and even no so obvious) choices are later than the period I need. Even God Save the King doesn't crop up until the mid-1700s. I might have to be anachronistic.

[french frank]

Bert

This might be of interest (http://www.contemplator.com/england/deadmen.html), with music. As you'll read, an earlier version than this one dates from the time of George I and the tune is older. I found it in a book of traditional songs (in the 'King' version) where it was described as a Cavalier song.

I'll see if there are any more in the same book.

[LeMartinPecheur]

A teeny tad too early (1691) but is the duet 'Round thy Coasts, Fair Nymph of Britain' from Purcell's King Arthur any use?

Or the following 'Harvest Home' chorus, which has the verse replete with typical native understatement "We'll toss off our Ale till we canno' stand,/ And Heigh for the Honour of Old England' :ale::ale::ale:

And with a huge false stress on the last word EngLAND:winkeye: - Purcell the exemplary setter of the English language Mr Britten??:laugh:

[Ferretfancy]

Bert Coules,

I've just remembered the Agincourt Song, but perhaps that's going back too far!

[Flosshilde]

Isn't it rather the point that patriotic songs would have been uncommon before the Act of Union? Elizabethans and Stuarts would probably not have recognised the idea in the way we think of it. The sort of music of the period that we enjoy today would only have been rarely heard in small towns and villages outside court circles.

Surely the idea would have been there, even if it wasn't expressed as such - patriotism arises from a belief in one's superiority against a real or imagined enemy - both Scotland & England had those in the 17th century - each other, & France in the case of the latter.

[Bert Coules]

Thanks again to everyone for all the thoughts and suggestions, and for an interesting discussion. You've given me lots to consider.

[Anna]

Definitely more popular than art. To be sung by a small group of men in a round-the-campfire sort of situation.

This is too late, at 1731, but would be rather jolly sung around a campfire! :smiley: Lucy Skeaping and her band did it on R3. You might actually consider emailing her for suggestions?

Roast Beef Of Old England
When mighty roast beef was the Englishman's food
It ennobl'd our veins and enriched our blood
Our soldiers were brave and our courtiers were good
Oh! The roast beef of Old England, and Old English roast beef.
But since we have learned from all vapouring France
To eat their ragouts, as well as to dance.
We are fed up with nothing but vain complaisance
Oh! The roast beef of Old England, and Old English roast beef.

Our fathers, of old, were robust, stout and strong
And kept open house, with good cheer all day long.
Which made their plump tenants rejoyce in this song
Oh! The roast beef of Old England, and Old English roast beef.

But now we are dwindled, to what shall I name
A sneaking poor race, half begotten and tame
Who sully those honours that once shone in fame
Oh! The roast beef of Old England, and Old English roast beef.

When good Queen Elizabeth sat on the throne
E'er coffee and tea and such slip-slops were known
The world was in terror if e'er she did frown.
Oh! The roast beef of Old England, and Old English roast beef.

In those days, if fleets did presume on the main
They seldom, or never, return'd back again
As witness, the vaunting Armada of Spain.
Oh! The roast beef of Old England, and Old English roast beef.

Oh! Then we had stomachs to eat, and to fight
And when wrongs were a-cooking to do ourselves right
But now we're a... I could, but goodnght.
Oh! The roast beef of Old England, and Old English roast beef.