View Full Version : BaL 19.03.11 Mahler Symphony no. 10
Eine Alpensinfonie
11-03-11, 13:14
Reviewed by Stephen Johnson
Mahler’s 10th symphony is available in a complex array of versions.
The nearest we can be to true authenticity is to hear the Adagio only, but even this appears in varying editions.
The other movements have been completed by
Deryck Cooke, Clinton Carpenter, Joe Wheeler and Rudolph Barshai.
Then there is a recomposed version by Matthew Herbert, which is unlikely to be considered in BAL.
Adagio only:
Cleveland Orchestra; Boulez
Bamberg Symphony Orchestra; Rickenbacher
San Francisco Symphony Orchestra; Tilson Thomas
Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra; Jarvi
London Symphony Orchestra; Gergiev
Vienna Symphony Orchestra; Adler (with “Purgatorio”)
Kremerata Baltica; Kremer (arr. Hans Stadlmer for strings)
Atlanta Symphony Orchestra; Levi
Chicago Symphony Orchestra; Abbado
Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra; Wit
Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra; Mitropoulos
Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra; Kubelik
*Philadelphia Orchestra; Levine
Concertgebouw Orchestra; Haitink
Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra; Bernstein
Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra; Maazel
Czech Philharmonic Orchestra; Neumann
Concertgebouw Orchestra; Chailly
Philharmonia Orchestra; Sinopoli
Sofia Philharmonic Orchestra; Tabakov
New York Philharmonic Orchestra; Bernstein
Koln Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester; Bertini
Deryck Cooke version:
Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra; Harding
Philadelphia Orchestra; Ormandy
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra; Rattle
BBC Philharmonic Orchestra; Noseda
Swr Sinfonie orchester Baden-Baden; Gielen
Berlin Symphony Orchestra; Sanderling
London Symphony Orchestra; Goldschmidt
Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra; Chailly
Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra; Inbal
New Philharmonia Orchestra; Wyn Morris
Christopher White (arr. for piano)
Clinton Carpenter version:
Tonhalle Orchestra, Zurich; Zinman
Singapore Symphony Orchestra; Shui
Dallas Symphony Orchestra; Litton
Rudolph Barshai version:
Junge Deutsche Philharmonie; Barshai
Wheeler version:
Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra; Olson
Mazzetti version:
St Louis Symphony Orchestra; Slatkin
Wheeler/Mazzetti version:
Cincinnata Symphony Orchestra; Lopez-Cobos
Matthew Herbert recomposed version:
Philharmonia Orchestra; Sinopoli
What about Mazzetti's, Wheeler's or Samale & Mazzuca's, all of which performing versions or completions have been recorded at least once? As to the supposed authenticity of performing the Adagio alone, that's nonsense. What's so 'authentic' about presenting a 'bleeding chunk' single movement of a five movement work?
HighlandDougie
11-03-11, 14:01
Apart from the Adagio, I resisted listening to this symphony for years for the pretty feeble reason that it was not echt-Mahler and that it was spurned by Mahler conductors whom I greatly respected (Abbado, Bernstein etc). A chance hearing last year of Mahler arr Cooke made me wonder if I had been missing something so I've been listening to it quite a bit since then. It can never be completely echt-Mahler but if one is prepared to listen to it as a piece of music without worrying too much about its provenance (heresy, I know) it is pretty convincing as a symphony - and, dare one say, a great symphony. I'm as moved by its final movement as that of the 9th. While I'm not sure that I'm ready to move beyond Cooke (the Carpenter sounds, to use a good Scots expression, like a right guddle), the fine recording and the sheer beauty of the VPO's playing has me seduced by the Daniel Harding recording, which I suspect that others will hate (and not just because it's Daniel Harding) as he treats the music as if it were Mahler discovering a new direction, rather than harking back to the pathos of the 9th.
Harding's, along with the BBC Music Magazine cover disc with the BBCNOW conducted by Wigglesworth, is the Mahler 10 recording I have the greatest regard for. Good for Harding - a great Cooke et al performing version of the sketches for Mahler's 10th, and a fine Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs (2008) completion of Bruckner's 9th (just Google "bruckner 9th harding download", without the quotes) under his cap.
Eine Alpensinfonie
11-03-11, 17:54
Thanks to Bryn and those who have sent private messages with corrections and additions
The Wheeler recording I had in mind was this one:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515biWsjHgL._SS500_.jpg ,
while the Mazzetti was that recorded by Slatkin:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51svzRzw0%2BL._SS400_.jpg
which I really cannot find anything good say about (i.e. I did not like it).
Szell recorded both the Adagio and Purgatorio ('live') in the old Krenek et al edition, though neither appear to be currently in print. They can, however, be found via the Internet, and at a price.
Eine Alpensinfonie
11-03-11, 18:48
As to the supposed authenticity of performing the Adagio alone, that's nonsense. What's so 'authentic' about presenting a 'bleeding chunk' single movement of a five movement work? Strictly speaking, the only way to be "authentic" is to play Mahler's score exactly as he left it, which would be disrespectful. However, as he left the Adagio more or less complete, playing this whole movement (hardly a bleeding chunk) is more authentic than presenting any other version. Having said that, I applaud the attempts by Cooke and others to help us to appreciate the rest of Mahler's vision.
I've added Slatkin to the list as it's still obtainable online.
Who's the reviewer ?
Not Secko please !
Eine Alpensinfonie
11-03-11, 22:12
Who's the reviewer ?
Not Secko please !
Stephen Johnson
french frank
11-03-11, 22:13
Who's the reviewer ?
Not Secko please !No - you'll be pleased to hear it's Stephen Johnson!
Edit: :doh: you wait an hour and a half for an answer and two come along at the same time ....
The discs of the Samale & Mazzuca performing version are ridiculously expensive, but you can get some idea from this series of YouTube postings. Unfortunately the first and fifth movements are divided into two sections each, and the edit points are rather untidy. They data rate of the aac audio appears to be at around 112kbps.:
Movements
1a = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JPe6l3sK10&feature=player_detailpage
1b = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JPe6l3sK10&feature=player_detailpage
2 = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anrdRXT93sU&feature=player_detailpage
3 = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNwamC0xVIk&feature=player_detailpage
4 = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SXl1p8rLhQ&feature=player_detailpage
5a = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daV2gj1NOmQ&feature=player_detailpage
5b = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osp591b4QOM&feature=player_detailpage
Barbirollians
12-03-11, 01:07
EA - you have left out the Bournemouth SO/Rattle.
Brassbandmaestro
12-03-11, 06:55
I love this work. I dont care if it not 'pure' Mahler. As far as I am concerned, it is. There are some very good advocates for this work, of which I have the BPO/Rattle reocrding. I am not so taken with(my nnamesake, as it happens), Joe Wheeler. It just just doesnt flow as the Derycke Cooke version does.
Eine Alpensinfonie
12-03-11, 07:47
EA - you have left out the Bournemouth SO/Rattle.
As far as I'm aware this one isn't available at present.
As far as I'm aware this one isn't available at present.
Indeed not. Something of a suprise, that. Not on CFP any more and not even on HMV Classics, it would appear. It can, however, be purchased as a download (at a somewhat inflated price where amazon.co.uk is concerned), from various vendors, so I think it might just get a mention in passing.
Eine Alpensinfonie
12-03-11, 08:17
Indeed not. Something of a suprise, that. Not on CFP any more and not even on HMV Classics, it would appear. It can, however, be purchased as a download (at a somewhat inflated price where amazon.co.uk is concerned), from various vendors, so I think it might just get a mention in passing.How does the Bournemouth Rattle version compare with his Berlin performance? The latter is my only "complete" version of this symphony.
How does the Bournemouth Rattle version compare with his Berlin performance? The latter is my only "complete" version of this symphony.
I have never been much taken with either of the Rattle recordings of Cooke et al performing versions, and have not listened to them for quite a while, so will leave it to others to comment on their relative merits. I know some very much prefer the approach taken in Bournemouth recording, but that may well be down to familiarity.
I am very much looking forward to this BAL. Having lived with the Morris recording on lp for many years and having performed the Cooke 2 (with Goldschmidt and Matthews) version maybe 15 years ago, I recently acquired the Barshai version. Tony Duggan's Musicweb review (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/mar04/Mahler105Barshai.htm) of this last-named is very interesting.
And I agree with Bryn about the Rattle, at least in his first recording, which I do not own but have heard a few times. I do not know Rattle's second.
Stephen Johnson. That's better.
In any case Secko wouldn't be able to follow his familiar NOT PASSIONATE ENOUGH THEREFORE GO FOR THE INCOMPARABLE BERNSTEIN
template this time.
Brassbandmaestro
12-03-11, 19:14
How does the Bournemouth Rattle version compare with his Berlin performance? The latter is my only "complete" version of this symphony.
I reckon the Berlin recording far outways the Bournemouth.Alkthough, with memories of the old messageboards, I think there was a discussion about this and therre were a view differences of opinion, naturally!
Eine Alpensinfonie
12-03-11, 19:25
I reckon the Berlin recording far outways the Bournemouth.Alkthough, with memories of the old messageboards, I think there was a discussion about this and therre were a view differences of opinion, naturally!
Now that you mention it, I think I recall that discussion.
You can still get Rattle's original recording with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra (e.g. here : http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0001E8C1O/ref=dm_dp_cdp?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1300007276&sr=8-4 or as a download: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001LOAZL8/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1300007276&sr=8-4).
Chris
PS NYO are playing it in April (Gateshead and RFH).
The VPO/Harding recording is superb - how couldn't it be with that orchestra? - but the one that for me packs a real emotional clout is the recording from Kurt Sanderling and the Berlin Symphony Orchestra. The rather close miking gives it even more punch and it's a pity this one will probably be overlooked in favour of more suave readings. I know that some don't care for Chailly's way with those notorious drum thwacks in the finale but his Prom performance with the Leipzig Gewandhaus a couple of years ago was one if the most moving Proms I've attended.
Eine Alpensinfonie
13-03-11, 12:40
The VPO/Harding recording is superb - how couldn't it be with that orchestra? Even recordings with the VPO can be less than top drawer. I shudder every time I hear the DG Karajan Turandot; Frau Alpensinfonie thought there was something wrong with the CD and that I should take it back to the shop.
Even recordings with the VPO can be less than top drawer. I shudder every time I hear the DG Karajan Turandot; Frau Alpensinfonie thought there was something wrong with the CD and that I should take it back to the shop.
What was wrong with it? Was it more the engineering than any deficiency in the playing? Of course the VPO can produce a duff recording but the Harding Mahler 10 isn't one if them.
Eine Alpensinfonie
13-03-11, 12:57
There are indeed deficiencies in the recording, but it's more serious when the likes of Domingo and the VPO are not being held together by Karajan. One wuld expect a big-name recording like this to be technically and musically stunning. It is far from that. Sample Nessun Dorma - with which you'd think they would have made a bit more effort.
Alf-Prufrock
14-03-11, 21:50
I do hope the Barshai is given a fair hearing. It is his own version, but I cannot think of any reason to doubt its worth. There is a quite remarkable electricity running through the performance, I think.
Eine Alpensinfonie
15-03-11, 11:17
This could be one of the most interesting BALs in recent times.
Eine Alpensinfonie
18-03-11, 14:00
I'm pleased to see that this BaL is longer than usual - 70 minutes according to the Radio Times.
I'm very much looking forward to this BAL and I'm so pleased that Stephen Johnson is doing it and not Edward Seckerson.
In the recent BAL about Mahler releases Seckerson was given the platform to broadcast his thoughts. Fair enough, I found them a bit dodgy but the man has to make a living.
But imagine my horror on opening the March 2011 Gramophone to find that the reviewer of the new Rattle Mahler Symphony no 2 and the Saraste Mahler symphony no 9 was ... Edward Seckerson.:yikes: A little diversity is a lovesome thing, please :smiley:
For information, there is an extended review of the available (at that time) versions of Mahler's symphony no 10 in the December 2010 issue of Gramophone by David Gutman. It contains a short but interesting history of the several versions of the various completions. I am not knowledgable enough to know if it is complete but I am sure that more knowledgeable heads such as Bryn will advise if there are major errors or omissions.
In the immortal words of Delia Smith: "Let's Be 'Avin' You!!" :biggrin:
mathias broucek
18-03-11, 19:22
It's sooooo exciting
Although I have not problems about it's echt-ness or otherwise, I know the 10th less well than the other 9 and BAL is a good way of becoming more familier with a work. The fact that there are multiple completion gives this another dimension. (All mine are of Cooke.)
I'm sharing others' enthusiasm for this BAL - the luxury 65 minute time-slot suggested by the website listing, Stephen Johnson doing it.. I hope it will be a return to form for BAL which I think has had a disappointing year so far - two Liszt 'Années de Pélerinage' in quick succession :sadface: ...the slightly half-baked Beecham and Bruckner non-BALs :whistle: ...the silly Alborada one :yikes: etc etc.
Mahler 10 is really one to get the teeth into. I had the Rattle/Bournemouth on cassette at University and played the magnetic particles off the side with the final movement on - those drum thwacks, the heart-melting flute solo... it was played to many new friends as the sun set over the autumn trees, steam curled from mugs of tea and the butter dripped from crumpets...
Er-hem... sorry... :blush: ...but it was a bit of a talisman piece for me. I stuck with the Rattle for years. And bought the BPO version which I think is also good - meatier sound, also a powerful reading. And I became obssessed for a while with the opening adagio... I have an extraordinary performance with Svetlanov and the RSSO, coupled with No 7, which really digs the guts out of the piece: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-No-7-etc/dp/B000003HYC (not mentioned in EA's post #1 perhaps because in that form it is unavailable, although the complete box is I think http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Symphonies-Mahler/dp/B002IYLEN8.)
The only conversation I ever had with Claudio Abbado (also in those student days - I'd hung around behind the RFH, got his autograph, but his limo hadn't appeared, so we were hanging around together) was about Mahler 10 - I asked him if he was going to record the whole piece, and he explained no because he didn't find anything other than the Adagio to be 'real', so he only played that, in the same way as he only played the two movements of Schubert's Unfinished...
I 'inherited' from a late relative the Wigglesworth BBC MM recording and am afraid I've never played it. Thanks to Bryn's comments earlier on this thread, I will give it a spin. The broken box,and missing cover notes rather put me off.
What has happened to BAL? Much as I admire AMcG, is he an expert on everything? Why not let SJ get on with it in the tried and tested one presenter dashion?
What has happened to BAL? Much as I admire AMcG, is he an expert on everything? Why not let SJ get on with it in the tried and tested one presenter dashion?
Quite - as per my thread last week, http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?1581-What-s-happening-to-BAL
It was a very good listen, though! :smiley::ok:
IMHO I usually prefer the double format. Andrew and Rob are always good value, and I enjoyed today's programme with Andrew and Stephen Johnson.
Why not let SJ get on with it in the tried and tested one presenter dashion?
But AMcG did let SJ get on with it. He argued his views with great clarity throughout, and it was a riveting listen. When it's as good as it was this morning, the two-handed format wins hands down. This is clearly the way BaL is moving.
Nachtigall
19-03-11, 12:14
Yes, I thought the dialogue worked very well. It was interesting to listen with Cooke's full orchestral score in front of me, which prints Mahler's four-bar sketch beneath Cooke's orchestration. I've never invested in any of the other "completions" and certainly won't be acquiring the Clinton Carpenter after listening to his version of the flute passage in the final Adagio with applied "lip-gloss" (Stephen Johnson's metaphor). No mention was made of the Ormandy recording, which preceded the Rattle/BSO by fifteen years and was the first recording following the Cooke/Goldschmidt broadcasts which enabled me really to get to know the symphony in the late 60s.
As I listened to BAL, which I enjoyed in today's format, I couldn't help wondering how long it would take for a message to appear bemoaning the fact that it wasn't in the traditional form.
Not long was the answer.
One of the things I like about the "discussion" format is that it underlines the fact that the reviewer's is only one persons view. Helps to put it in context.
I'd like to think that BAL might continue to use both formats.
But AMcG did let SJ get on with it. He argued his views with great clarity throughout, and it was a riveting listen. When it's as good as it was this morning, the two-handed format wins hands down. This is clearly the way BaL is moving.
Agreed. There was the spectre of 'recent releases' in the background - AMcG introduced it as a look at the various versions (fine) and some 'recent releases' (at which my heart sank, because that trend in recent weeks tends to eliminate a key aspect of BAL, comparing the older versions with the later). But in fact as it turned out, SJ did cover the ground and of course the 'final choice' was from 1999.
I found the extract from the final movement in that 1964 prom overwhelming, helped by SJ deftly putting it in context. Hearing the very moment that unbelievably beautiful flute tune was first given voice had tears running down my face...
Well, sorry, but I didn't. I dislike the format, and frankly, I found this one particularly exasperating, and actually strangely competitive, as if each were trying to outdo each other in terms of titbits of knowledge.
I find Johnson in his own right a pretty compelling broadcaster and he simply does not need AMcG to hold his hand and guide him. It feels patronising, and the end result for me is diffusion, time consumed, extracts dutifully played, but as for conclusions......? Yes, I know that with an unfinished / uncompleted score that is inevitable, but it is the effect of having two who see themselves as equals quietly striving to make points that leaves the listener a bit frustrated. A single voice's thesis can be evaluated as it unfolds, it has discipline and focus, you can diaagree or agree as it goes along, but inevitably, the currently much beloved BAL format blurs, the listener becomes merely a target rather than a complicit part of the argument.
I genuinely do not see why it is suddenly finding favour. AND it has meant that this a.m., AMcG's voice has been going pretty well non-stop since 9 a.m., because after the BAL slot, he does exactly the same trot with Geoffrey Smith over the Domingo box set. So no variation in format, and it's just not good for the programme's engagement factor to implant such an end to end repetitive model.
Incidentally, no mention of the Huelgas Ensemble's Forty Voice CD earlier in which both the Striggio and the Tallis were given excellent performances?
visualnickmos
19-03-11, 12:59
This was a very interesting and enjoyable BaL, especially as I am only (slightly) familiar with the Adagio. The programme made me want to invest in a complete 10th, but I am nowhwere near being able to decide which one to go for! It seemd that many of the presented versions have something of great merit in them....
I was drawn towards Rattle's BPO version, but having read the postings on here - well that has thrown a cat amongst the pigeons, and I'm now back at square one. Help!!!!
I found this one particularly exasperating, and actually strangely competitive, as if each were trying to outdo each other in terms of titbits of knowledge...
Johnson ... simply does not need AMcG to hold his hand and guide him. ... it is the effect of having two who see themselves as equals quietly striving to make points that leaves the listener a bit frustrated. ... AMcG's voice has been going pretty well non-stop since 9 a.m., because after the BAL slot, he does exactly the same trot with Geoffrey Smith over the Domingo box set. So no variation in format, and it's just not good for the programme's engagement factor to implant such an end to end repetitive model.
I can see the point you are making in general terms about the discussion format, and certainly over the course of three hours, it probably made for too much two-handed discussion. And the opera section was much less illuminating - here I felt the guest added very little insight to what we were hearing, and think he is much more interesting when presenting jazz.
But I am really puzzled by what you say regarding the Mahler slot. There was no sense in which SJ was having his hand held, nor of any competitiveness that I could detect. And I cannot imagine many clearer expositions of the issues surrounding the 10th symphony than we got.
I'm happy with both formats if they're well done.
[Caliban, I had exactly the same reaction as you to the flute solo in the orginal Proms broadcast!]
The programme made me want to invest in a complete 10th, but I am nowhwere near being able to decide which one to go for! It seemd that many of the presented versions have something of great merit in them....
I was drawn towards Rattle's BPO version, but having read the postings on here - well that has thrown a cat amongst the pigeons, and I'm now back at square one. Help!!!!
As mentioned above, I've lived with and loved No 10 for 30 years. The BPO/Rattle version is very good, as they said on BAL, but it lacks the freshness of the earlier Bournemouth performance... If you can find a copy of the latter, I must say I'd start with that.
Incidentally, no mention of the Huelgas Ensemble's Forty Voice CD earlier in which both the Striggio and the Tallis were given excellent performances? Heard that, and agree. Interesting instrumental doubling. The Palestrina Papae Marcelli with altos on top wasn't to my taste though. There seemed a mis-match between the lower parts and the very bland top part. Listening to the whole thing (OK I know there were intersersions on the CD) would verge on tedium.
[Caliban, I had exactly the same reaction as you to the flute solo in the orginal Proms broadcast!]
I find that interesting. Is it the flute solo itself, ie do you react this way every time you hear it, or was it the recording of the first performance that produced the reaction?
I find that interesting. Is it the flute solo itself, ie do you react this way every time you hear it, or was it the recording of the first performance that produced the reaction?
Speaking for myself, I always find it moving. But this morning it was the additional poignant sense that such a sublime and obviously so personal a thing had been created by Mahler but remained silent (and could have gone on being unheard) but was in that moment at last being given life and released into the world.
(I still have some cassettes from an early telephone voicemail machine, on which are messages from a great friend who was killed nearly 20 years ago - once in a while, I listen to them. There is a similar poignancy there).
Brassbandmaestro
19-03-11, 13:41
In, some ways Im found this format rather exasperasting. A reviewer, of Stephen Johnson's calibre, certainly does not need someone else to discuss this or anyother work with. But, in other ways, a format like this brings out other things, likke titbits of knowledge that maybe the other participant hadnt realised.
I find that interesting. Is it the flute solo itself, ie do you react this way every time you hear it, or was it the recording of the first performance that produced the reaction?
It was the context in which it was introduced this morning, the sense of an occasion, a voice that was intended to be heard, finally being heard. And the sheer pared-down beauty of it.
A couple of posters have referred to this slot being about "titbits" of knowledge, and perhaps they know everything there is to know about the genesis of this work. But to me that is an unfair description of an exemplary piece of insightful broadcasting.
I enjoyed this BAL considerably and was pleased particularly to hear the Joe Wheeler completion/Naxos recording and a mention of the Barshai completion. I don't think we heard anything from the Sanderling of Deryck Cooke's second version, however.
I agree with Caliban & others about hearing that flute solo, imagining how Cooke must have felt to hear its being 'released' into the world for the first time in concert in the Albert Hall at a Prom.The Testament release of that concert is a 'must have' for me but not a first choice. Deryck Cooke was clearly a remarkable man and I wonder if there is an autobiography or an extended biography of him other than the notes we get on record sleeves.
I was thinking during the programme about the woman who inspired it all, and how lost and gutted Mahler felt when he discovered about her infidelity. It seems that this was all part of a pattern in her life, even with Zemlinsky before she met & married Mahler.
With the stramash about attractive young female violinists still rumbling on in another thread, perhaps a picture of Alma might put such thoughts in their correct perspective? :winkeye:
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2010/12/1/1291224504158/Alma-Mahler-006.jpg
Caliban and pilamenon, thank you both. I understand. I too find the flute solo almost indescribably beautiful and would also use the word "poignant".
I also thought that the whole discussion, with the excerpts played, was very insightful and opened my mind to deeper reflection on a work I had thought I knew well.
Bws, Iain
visualnickmos
19-03-11, 18:04
Many thanks, Caliban (msg 44)
I had myself started to think about the Bournemouth, as opposed to the BPO, as a 'possible' and your reply has confirmed that! I will try and search it out.
Nick
Many thanks, Caliban (msg 44)
I had myself started to think about the Bournemouth, as opposed to the BPO, as a 'possible' and your reply has confirmed that! I will try and search it out.
Nick
Pleasure - try a used one for £2.98!! Then if you don't like it, it's no disaster!
One of the aspects of the eagerness of the performance is that the bass drum thwacks that start the final movement are extremely loud!! Thrilling and visceral (though not the only way of doing it). But if they don't shiver your timbers, nothing will!
Hope you do enjoy it
PS: Mais je vois que vous êtes en France...:smiley:
Ca coute plus cher là-bas, paraît-il... http://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_fr_FR=%C5M%C5Z%D5%D1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=mahler+rattle+bournemouth&x=0&y=0
Donc vaudrait mieux utiliser amazon.uk je crois :winkeye:
I see there is a podcast of this week's discussion, which is good news (given that the Bruckner and Beecham "BAL"s were not available).
I can certainly endorse the enthusiasm for Rattle's Bournemouth Mahler 10. IMV the best thing he's ever done.
As mentioned above, I've lived with and loved No 10 for 30 years. The BPO/Rattle version is very good, as they said on BAL, but it lacks the freshness of the earlier Bournemouth performance... If you can find a copy of the latter, I must say I'd start with that.
thanks for the recommendation, Caliban - I'll get a copy and try it out.
I wasn't able to hear all the programme, but very much enjoyed the intelligence of what I did hear - particularly because it's not a work I know well.
Did he/they make any mention of the Michael Gielen / SWR Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden und Freiburg? - I like it for the clarity, but usually prefer Rattle/Berlin PO and Chailly / RSO Berlin...
visualnickmos
20-03-11, 18:27
Thanks again Caliban. (msg 53)
Oui - je suis en France. I often use Amazon UK, although there have been occasions when I have found Amazon France to be considerably cheaper. Just a question of checking all Amazons!
I hope to order it this week.
Flosshilde
20-03-11, 20:53
Like others here I've not listened to the 10th, on the grounds that it isn't 'real' Mahler, but BaL has persuaded me that I should try it (although I have only heard the berginning of the programme so far). One thought did strike me - given that there are a number of different 'completions' two programmes might be neccessary - one to discuss the various versions &, if possible, come up with the 'best', or most effective, and a following programme to discuss the available performances of that version.
Well as far as it went, the programme seemed fair enough, albeit that I fairly strongly disagree re. the final recommendation. However, the omission of at least four leading contenders (for various reasons) rendered it essentially inconsequential. There was no mention of the Ormandy (the first commercial recording of Cooke 1) none of Gielen (who is particularly important when one considers that he had a major change of mind, from only conducting the Adagio, to revising his opinion and taking on a Cooke performing version). There was a total disregard of the recent Lan Shui recording of the Carpenter completion (a superb performance and recording, whatever one's views re. the completion used), and the Samale/Mazzuca performing version might as well not even exist, let alone have been recorded by the Arnhem Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Martin Sieghart, as far as the Building a Library team are concerned. O.k., that SACD is ridiculously expensive, but it does exist and is worthy of consideration, even if then rejected from the final round-up.
All in all then, this Building a Library edition was quite frankly just not good enough! Effectively it was a superficial run-though of SJ's personal favourites with no serious attention to those he was not already familiar with, it would appear. Oh, and before anyone mentions the defence of current unavailability of particular recordings, the Bournemouth Rattle, and even the Wyn Morris, did get a mention, so that excuse falls at the first fence.
Currently spinning here, a lo-fi edit of the Samale/Mazzuca derived from the YouTube offering. Worth hearing, but not, I think, worth paying the current amazon, or even the cdJapan, asking price for on SACD.
Eine Alpensinfonie
20-03-11, 22:20
I've never quite understood why people are reluctant to listen to "completed" works on the grounds that they are not the total work of the original composer, whether this be Mahler's 10th, Elgar-Payne 3rd, Mozart's Requiem, Schubert's completed 7th, 8th & 10th, Bruckner's 9th or Puccini's Turandot. Is it better to pretend the music doesn't exist, or is it better to hear another musician's/composer's idea of how it might have been? Provided that no attempt is made to deceive the listener, it hardly matters who wrote it.
Consider Jeremiah Clarke's "The Prince of Denmark's March". Does it matter that it was composed by a lesser composer than Purcell (to whom it was once attributed)? Or the Minuet in G formerly attributed to Bach, but now thought to be by Petzold? How much does the name on the top right-hand corner of the music really matter. Surely, it's what the person sitting/standing in front of the music produces that matters.
I've never quite understood why people are reluctant to listen to "completed" works on the grounds that they are not the total work of the original composer, whether this be Mahler's 10th, Elgar-Payne 3rd, Mozart's Requiem, Schubert's completed 7th, 8th & 10th, Bruckner's 9th or Puccini's Turandot. Is it better to pretend the music doesn't exist, or is it better to hear another musician's/composer's idea of how it might have been? Provided that no attempt is made to deceive the listener, it hardly matters who wrote it.
Consider Jeremiah Clarke's "The Prince of Denmark's March". Does it matter that it was composed by a lesser composer than Purcell (to whom it was once attributed)? Or the Minuet in G formerly attributed to Bach, but now thought to be by Petzold? How much does the name on the top right-hand corner of the music really matter. Surely, it's what the person sitting/standing in front of the music produces that matters.
Agreed, and then there's the thorny issue of BWV 565. :whistle:
Chris Newman
20-03-11, 22:57
Agreed, and then there's the thorny issue of BWV 565. :whistle:
And Beethoven's Tenth.....
.... by the way, I too like the Bournemouth Mahler 10, though I have to remind my pacemaker when that massive bang is about to come. Wigglesworth is a tad more refined at that point on BBC MM and Wheeler on Naxos a damp squib.
Flosshilde
20-03-11, 23:07
The programme began with a run-through of the conductors who have refused to conduct a performance of the completed 10th on the grounds that it wasn't all Mahler - SJ's comment that they were quite happy to conduct Mozart's Requiem, which had less Mozart that the 10th has of Mahler, rather showed up their (& my) prejudice :smiley:
One reason for me deciding that I should listen to it was SJ's comment that following on from the 9th & its 'dying' ending the 10th suggested a new life, making it essential in understanding the journey through Mahler's symphonies.
The programme began with a run-through of the conductors who have refused to conduct a performance of the completed 10th on the grounds that it wasn't all Mahler - SJ's comment that they were quite happy to conduct Mozart's Requiem, which had less Mozart that the 10th has of Mahler, rather showed up their (& my) prejudice :smiley:
One reason for me deciding that I should listen to it was SJ's comment that following on from the 9th & its 'dying' ending the 10th suggested a new life, making it essential in understanding the journey through Mahler's symphonies.
For all my misgivings re. the lack of mention of far too many recordings, the point re. Mahler's not putting the finishing touches to the 9th and Das Lied von der Erde were well made too, I thought.
I found SJ somewhat less opinionated than usual in the conversational format.
I have always found the Rattle BPO account altogether too strident, weighty
and self aware for this most humane of works. So unmoving to my ears.
Panjandrum
21-03-11, 10:27
I often use Amazon UK, although there have been occasions when I have found Amazon France to be considerably cheaper.
I've noted that too (EMI's 30CD VW Collector's Edition for €28 for example). :winkeye: Unfortunately, those dastardly frenchies don't always fulfill to the UK. :whistle:
mathias broucek
21-03-11, 11:45
When listening, I was surprised at the extent to which they were making the case for the piece rather than comparing editions and performances.
However it's clear from the discussions above that many people have dodged the 10th as somehow a bit "dodgy".
Wouldn't it be great if they could come back and say quite a lot more about the performances! For example, we never really learned what SJ thought about Chailly or whether the Goldschmidt was a good performance (a la the Horenstein 8th) or just historically interesting (a la Walter's 1938 9th).
I do not post very often but do read and enjoy a lot of them.When it comes to Mahler 10 though i have to respond as it, along with DSCH 4 and Bruckner 8,has long been my top 3.I first got to know the piece via the Ormandy LP version followed by the Morris and Rattle/Bournemouth versions,also on LP.All my LP's have long since gone but I now have at least 12 CD versions plus some off-air recordings.The most recent CD version I have got from Ebay was the Philadelphia/Levine one which I was not that struck by.I must try to get the VPO-Harding version as many people praise it.If I had to choose my favourite recording I think I might go for the Morris one,although I have only got it as an MP3 download,but if you asked me again I would probably choose another version.
Nachtigall
21-03-11, 17:54
The Ormandy/Philadelphia LP version (1965) was how I too got to know and love this symphony, which in many ways does sound like the ne plus ultra of symphonic statements. I now possess that version on CD, but have just been listening on headphones (while doing the ironing) to the Daniel Harding/VPO recording. I think you'll like that, 338, if only for the sound of the Vienna strings in the final movement – such warmth and bittersweet richness.
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