View Full Version : Norman Lebrecht on Trinity College, Cambridge
NotNormanLebrecht
01-04-11, 16:31
http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2011/04/strange_goings-on_in_the_cambr.html
kernelbogey
01-04-11, 17:44
NL's coy innuendo leaves a nastier taste in the mouth than Trinity's actions. Why can't he come out and say what he means?
Eudaimonia
01-04-11, 18:48
What the hell? Good grief, who put the morality stick up his backside all of a sudden? I wonder what any of these people did (or who they offended) to deserve getting their names dragged through the mud in this kind of public smear campaign.
Lebrecht is a fine one to talk about things being a bit cozy, isn't he. Now there's a man who knows cozy when he sees it!
Oh, but everything's all as it should be, I'm sure. :erm:
Hang on a moment folks. If Stephen Layton and Trinity College Choir and a composer-in-residence are producing some excellent music, why are we so worried? We live in competitive times. Even your local comp. is having to vie for funds by declaring itself 'an academy of business enterprise' and by getting some superannuated captain of industry on the governing body. Whilst it would be lovely to think that both the capitalist ethos and the old-boy-network could be expunged from Fayre Musick, the world just ain't like that. I'm more worried by the probability that Eriks will turn out to be yet another Part/Whitaker sound-alike. I speak from a standpoint of pure ignorance...and so I hope I'm wrong.
NL's coy innuendo leaves a nastier taste in the mouth than Trinity's actions. Why can't he come out and say what he means?
He's having a sneaky little flirt with the law of libel...
french frank
01-04-11, 22:29
I'm more worried by the probability that Eriks will turn out to be yet another Part/Whitaker sound-alike. I speak from a standpoint of pure ignorance...and so I hope I'm wrong.Here's a sample (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSVQolhKmlc) - the choral conductor is Andris Nelsons.
(I think the Layton-Trinity stories were discussed long ago.)
Does anyone take Lebrecht seriously any more (assuming anyone ever did in the first place)?
He's just a dessicated gossip columnist of the music world.
AND he has a cavalier disregard for the truth (as he knows, to his own cost).
french frank
01-04-11, 23:05
Can we be circumspect about how we phrase our comments, please?
Can we be circumspect about how we phrase our comments, please?
Apologies if language was not circumspect, ff, but Lebrecht has got himself a 'rep': his last book on classical music was pulped when it was found to contain unfounded allegations against Klaus Heymann. He makes casual references to recordings that have never been made and incidents that never happened. And, as the article cited above illustrates, he does like to cast aspersions.
Really, it's just the Nigel Dempster column with the various toffs' names removed and replaced with those of classical musicians.
french frank
01-04-11, 23:23
Indeed, I'm well aware of the 'inaccuracies', Mandryka, but there could be all sorts of reasons why people get their facts wrong, like short term memory loss, illness ..................
'An apparently cavalier attitude towards 100% accuracy' I have no difficulty with :smiley:.
Only just got in to see this thread.
We have indeed been here several times before on the old R3 CE boards - the matter gets aired at some length every time Trinity or Stephen Layton, or Polyphony etc are mentioned and in similar fashion.
As ardcarp wisely says, whatever we may think about it, this is an increasingly usual symbiosis between performers, conposers. It may blur lines we thought we udnerstodd were there, but......? The sad thing is that the results tend to be rather an anti-climax, but who knows this time?
And yes, NL has somewhat revelled in his role of geriatricus terribilis. Is he taken as seriously as he would like to be these days, I wonder?
Here's a sample
I'm struggling to find words to describe the unashamed amalgam of styles. Certianly not the econmy of Part. Grieg, Lloyd- Webber, Janacek all floated through my head...and out again.
Sydney Grew
02-04-11, 09:33
Mr. Lebrecht is Britain's most eminent, admirable, intelligent and reliable living critic.
french frank
02-04-11, 10:17
Now, if this had been yesterday ...
Now, if this had been yesterday ...
:laugh:
I can only assume that Mr Grew has thus dropped his mask :smiley:
But even if it's today, it's a corker of a silly remark.
french frank
02-04-11, 15:01
I think I'd like to come back on this. NL writes:
"Recent incumbents include Nicholas Maw, Judith Weir, Thomas Adès, Richard Causton and Tarik O'Regan, all fairly well known in Cambridge and around the UK."
To me that gives the impression that this post has normally been given to composers of a certain distinction. In fact, according to Trinity (http://www.trin.cam.ac.uk/index.php?pageid=395), the Fellow Commoner post (not 'composer in residence', as NL describes it) is 'to assist creative artists at the beginning of their careers'. Weir got it almost 30 years ago, when she was 29. Maw was the first appointee back in 1966, so on two counts could hardly be described as 'a recent incumbent'. Adès was 23. Trinity's mention of Maw, Weir &c was - I would assume - to show that they had been good 'pickers' in the past or had helped to develop careers successfully.
And in case anyone might think that the appointment is within the gift of any individual, it isn't only for composers/musicians but for anyone working in the 'creative arts' . My scenario is that SL nominated Ešenvalds as his 'protégé', and in the light of the other nominations Ešenvalds got it (he is 'fairly well known' in his own country). Is that any 'cosier' than Cambridge appointing its own?
NotNormanLebrecht
02-04-11, 15:22
I'm not Norman Lebrecht, I just couldn't think of a suitable handle when trying to post the link! Have loved following these boards since closure of the old R3 boards, but had nothing to contribute until I saw NL's usual muck-raking!
I'm not much a fan of NL myself; however - if true, of course (big if) - it's the interrelation of these various events which looks a bit dodgy. For me, I think, the worst allegation is the creation of a post on the College staff, which wasn't advertised, and for it to be filled by his personal/professional agent without due process. If that *is* true, then I think they're getting very close to Martin Neary territory.
In this light poor Esenvalds is about to enter a rather complicated set-up which might not serve him well in the long run.
Maw was the first appointee back in 1966 - where did you find this? Good info!
I work in charitable law and, if this interests anyone, this year is the first year in which Oxbridge Colleges will have to publish their accounts (they had to register last year): http://www.cambridgenetwork.co.uk/news/article/default.aspx?objid=73492 - they will also come under the scrutiny of the Charity commission. I think this might be what NL is getting at - or rather encouraging someone to file an FOI etc.
Of course, everything depends on whether NL has his facts straight...
french frank
02-04-11, 15:32
SD
I did realise - belatedly - that you weren't NL, but I think it would have been better not to use his blogging name!
I found the info about Maw being the first appointee yesterday, I think in one of the obits. I couldn't find it this morning, but Trinity's comment about the length of time the post had been in existence coincided so I assumed it was correct. Trinity has a list of the obits of all its Fellows, Honorary Fellows and Alumni - I'm sure if I went through them I'd find the source. Though I suppose it could be 'unreliable' :smiley: - best say 'one of the first appointees' to be 100% proof until the claim has been verified.
Edit: Telegraph obit (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/music-obituaries/5351376/Nicholas-Maw.html). The Times, Guardian and Indie don't even mention the appointment, which doesn't suggest it was hugely prestigious.
NotNormanLebrecht
02-04-11, 15:37
I think it would have been better not to use his blogging name!
Ah, good point! Any ideas on how I change my handle?
french frank
02-04-11, 15:42
Ah, good point! Any ideas on how I change my handle?What would you like it changed to? :smiley:
NotNormanLebrecht
02-04-11, 16:03
How about: NotNormanLebrecht
Thanks!
french frank
02-04-11, 16:14
Fellow-commoner: Cambridge University slang for an empty bottle, so called because fellow-commoners (a class of students) were not held to be over-full of learning. ("Seeing the row of fellow-commoners on the stairs outside his door, I have to wonder just what kind of an education dear Freddy is getting.")
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/french_frank/fellowcommoner.jpg
NotNormanLebrecht
02-04-11, 18:36
FF, thanks for changing my name!
Do you ever feel you're living in a parallel universe? :sadface:
Eudaimonia
03-04-11, 07:12
Mr. Lebrecht is Britain's most eminent, admirable, intelligent and reliable living critic.
Fair enough; he certainly has his good points. But assuming you honestly believe this and aren't just taking the mickey, do you really think it's admirable, intelligent and/or reliable to accuse people of misconduct without coming right out and making the accusation and offering proof? Don't you think it's a little...odd...he chose to pick on this relatively insignificant group of people when their situation seems no better and no worse than scores of others appointments made everywhere? Is it really a music critic's job to hypocritically peddle sleazy gossip?
Personally, I think complaining about dodgy appointments in the music industry is about as stupid as whingeing about the tides coming in and going out. :erm:
NotNormanLebrecht
03-04-11, 10:29
Personally, I think complaining about dodgy appointments in the music industry is about as stupid as whingeing about the tides coming in and going out.
I more or less agree, however, I think NL is trying to point out that following the change in charitable law (mentioned above) as it applies to Oxbridge colleges from 2011, there ought to be more transparency where an institution receives tax-payer income (if only to ensure that this money doesn't go to sewn-up appointments).
I completely agree with NNL & Euda! :ok:
french frank
03-04-11, 10:36
In any case, let's repeat, it's an academic/college appointment, not a music appointment - it's for anyone working in the creative arts; and it's not a prestigious appointment - it's for people 'at the beginning of their careers', perhaps different, but on a par with, the New Generation Artists scheme.
And dodgy academic appointments aren't unusual: my head of department/doctoral supervisor invited me to apply for a vacancy that was imminent in my specialism. The post was advertised, two were shortlisted and I got it (probably to the surprise of no one). The prof had known me and my work for three years, I'd done undergrad teaching in the department along with other members of staff, he was satisfied I could do the job. If he has to choose between me and someone he doesn't know at all, all things being equal, why would he choose the stranger who might be a dead loss? When there are tens or hundreds who could be chosen, knowing someone is suitable/adequate is often the best you have to go on: your knowledge against someone else's opinion.
NotNormanLebrecht
03-04-11, 10:42
The post was advertised, two were shortlisted and I got it (probably to the surprise of no one).
That might be dodgy, but I'm sure you were the best candidate - and this is above board and legal. To not advertise a job at all - even internally only (if NL's intimation is correct) - is a different matter altogether and one which falls far short of the various regulations in place to stop conflicts of interest in the UK charitable sector.
Edit: to be clear I'm talking about NL's comments on the appointment of Paul Nicholson, Polyphony's agent, to the College's staff, not Esenvalds.
french frank
03-04-11, 10:57
Edit: to be clear I'm talking about NL's comments on the appointment of Paul Nicholson, Polyphony's agent, to the College's staff, not Esenvalds.In that case I have been labouring under a misapprehension :biggrin: . I was thinking of his reference to the appointment of EE, 'a Latvian composer of considerable obscurity', and his question, 'Why Eriks?'
Of Nicholson's appointment, I know nothing, but I think this might be the question that was aired some while ago.
Yes, a VERY long time ago. Wrangling thread back on R3 mbs.
NotNormanLebrecht
03-04-11, 14:51
Yes, a VERY long time ago. Wrangling thread back on R3 mbs.
Wasn't there some palaver over the way Layton was appointed in the first place (in Private Eye, or am I mis-remembering?) a few years ago; I (very vaguely) remember it was something similar - i.e. lack of transparency in the appointments process or something.
Eudaimonia
03-04-11, 17:59
"Personally, I think complaining about dodgy appointments in the music industry is about as stupid as whingeing about the tides coming in and going out." "In any case, let's repeat, it's an academic/college appointment, not a music appointment"
Whoops, Freudian slip! Chalk it up to my quietly fuming about all the truly questionable appointments, commissions, and promotions Lebrecht could have been exposing but wouldn't dare. Nobody would because that's just how the game works, isn't it.
Ugh. Time to put a sock in it and retire gracefully before I say something actionable.
NotNormanLebrecht
05-04-11, 19:01
Some more on the composer, at least, if not the internal appointment/Hyperion stuff: http://www.overgrownpath.com/2011/04/its-who-you-know.html
french frank
05-04-11, 19:33
:ok::smiley:
Norman Lebrecht is I'm afraid is a totally ignorant, badly informed, stupid man.
I Quote:
(Strad Magazine October 2011)
"Note for note, Alina Ibragimova !!!!! (my exclamation marks) and Gil Shaham can hold their own with any legend in the archive."
"Milstein when he was in his eighties, told me that me that he could never play as fast as the current crop ..." (my emphasis)
What total bull****!! Of course Milstein said that, because he saw what a total idiot NL was. Milstein always gave out these dubious messages (often against himself), even when interviewed by fellow fiddlers like Zukerman. Only fools like Lebrecht fell for it, due to their total ignorance and arrogance.
How this ******** can survive is a mystery to me.
EDIT: I did not want to offend Waldhorn's sensibilities as I had not realised how sensitive he might be. I had also not noticed that this thread was on the Choir platform. I suppose that it should really have all been on Platform 3.
I see that NL will not be "contributing" to the Strad Magazine after October so maybe I will reconsider my cancellation of my subscription next year, as the magazine will certainly have improved considerably with his absence.
let me be clear: I hold no brief for Norman Lebrecht, BUT
to quote FF
"Can we be circumspect about how we phrase our comments, please?"
Frankly, I'm rather surprised that the above bile from Ariosto hasn't been modded by now.
:grr:
One can't go moderating Ariosto for understating the case against Lebrecht, surely?
See, in particular, http://www.r3ok.com/index.php/topic,3411.200.html , from relply 223 onwards.
Maybe I am simply an ignoramus or perhaps a gulliblamus, but, what exactly is the 'case against' Norman Lebrecht?
Maybe I am simply an ignoramus or perhaps a gulliblamus, but, what exactly is the 'case against' Norman Lebrecht?
I refer you to the link already offered.
I would only add that like many others I find the actions of the LPO abbhorrent and I certainly would have walked out of that orchestra in the circumstances at least until they reinstated and apologised to the players suspended.
It just shows what the Israelis are able to accomplish even here in Britain.
And of course my opinion as stated re Lebrecht is unaltered and I stand by my extremely low opinion of this parasite.
Maybe I am simply an ignoramus or perhaps a gulliblamus, but, what exactly is the 'case against' Norman Lebrecht?Yes, I agree with you. You really need to be better informed.
PLEASE, this thread cannot go on like this. It is degrading to the Forum and doing no good, and degenderating into mere playground name calling.
I shall take steps to close it if some civility does not return.
"I shall take steps to close it if some civility does not return"
How can anybody other than the HOSTS 'close' a thread?
PLEASE, this thread cannot go on like this. It is degrading to the Forum and doing no good, and degenderating into mere playground name calling.
I shall take steps to close it if some civility does not return.Interesting vocabulary DracoM. So you think such topics are only that of the playground! You must have been brought up in some pretty upper class playgrounds!! :winkeye:
Edit:
Ariosto, as you have invaded The Choir before with inappropriate postings, you are now being denied further access to this particular board. There are other boards available for you to make your comments on these topics.
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