The hard Szell? [Archive] - The Radio 3 Forum

Karafan

03-05-11, 14:40

Umpteen years ago, my dormant love of classical music was reawakened by a friend's passion for music. Being a callow, whey-faced poltroon at the time he put together a tape (remember those?) of pieces that I might like, including Karajan's superb Finlandia, I recall. There was also a couple of Slavonic Dances from Georg Szell (whom my friend memorably described, in a crib sheet which accompanied the cassette, as "a shaven-headed tyrant who terrorised orchestras on both side of the Atlantic"! Well, it certainly got my attention and I was then promptly won over by the calibre of his music making with his Clevelanders, of course.)

My point in this rambling discourse, so tortuously arrived-at, is, why has no-one written a definitive biography on this fascinating musician? Especially as the orchestral players who served under him are probably getting rather long in the tooth themselves. We had Hart's book on Reiner which filled an aching gap there, but Szell I would rather like to read about at length.

Of course, should there have been such a book written, please point me in the right direction!

Best wishes

Karafan

Petrushka

03-05-11, 23:06

I, too, bemoan the lack of a Szell biography and recall I mentioned it on the old BBC boards at one time.

Yes, he did have this reputation of being a tyrant (anyone here played under him?) but for an unexpected different aspect of the man please do listen to his recordings of the Haydn Symphonies as recently collected in a Sony box: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Szell-Conducts-Haydn-Symphonies-Classical/dp/B003TUG3UO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1304460253&sr=1-1. They have all the wit, elegance and charm you could want.

amateur51

03-05-11, 23:13

Mandryka

03-05-11, 23:34

Maybe his life wasn't terribly interesting? Not all conductors have interesting lives, by any means.

I love John Culshaw's story about him renegotiating his contract......:laugh::laugh::laugh:

makropulos

04-05-11, 11:14

Here's one book that isn't a Szell biography as such, but has a great deal about him (and is a very good read too):
Donald Rosenberg: The Cleveland Orchestra Story - Second To None.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cleveland-Orchestra-Story-Ohio/dp/1886228248/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1304504048&sr=8-1
It's well worth a read for anyone interested in Szell.

amateur51

04-05-11, 12:23

Karafan

06-05-11, 16:47

Yes, my thanks too Makropulos.:ale:

Also agree with Amateur51 - Schwarzkopf and Szell hit such heights on that EMI recording - the set has simply never been bettered. Pure emotion, bottled.

K.

Brassbandmaestro

09-05-11, 10:55

Oh, yes! The combination of those artists quite immeasurable. I love the way Szell did Brahms symphonies.

Richard Tarleton

11-05-11, 08:06

I love his Mahler 4, with Judith Raskin and the Cleveland - first bought on LP in 1972, long since replaced with CD. I've never bothered with any more versions on disc.

amateur51

11-05-11, 08:36

I love his Mahler 4, with Judith Raskin and the Cleveland - first bought on LP in 1972, long since replaced with CD. I've never bothered with any more versions on disc.

:ok::ok:

Dave2002

11-05-11, 14:17

Any other conductors need a write up? I nominate Karl Boehm - because I'm curious about some seemingly off the cuff remarks about him.

aeolium

11-05-11, 14:29

Any other conductors need a write up?

How about Eduard van Beinum, whose recordings have always impressed me, and Erich Kleiber, who doesn't seem to get a fraction of the attention his son gets but on the basis of his recorded legacy definitely deserves a re-evaluation?

amateur51

11-05-11, 17:16

How about Eduard van Beinum, whose recordings have always impressed me, and Erich Kleiber, who doesn't seem to get a fraction of the attention his son gets but on the basis of his recorded legacy definitely deserves a re-evaluation?

I'd nominate Gunther Herbig and Lovro von Matacic :smiley:

bluestateprommer

07-08-11, 23:47

I, too, bemoan the lack of a Szell biography and recall I mentioned it on the old BBC boards at one time.

Well, for Petrushka, Karafan and others, your wish for a George Szell biography has been granted, c/o Michael Charry, who has written such a tome called George Szell: A Life of Music. Review from Tim Page in the Wall Street Journal is here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052702303406104576445911683308584.html

The Amazon.co.uk link is here, but it's not yet been released in the UK (read further, however):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/George-Szell-Life-Music-American/dp/0252036166/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312756877&sr=1-1

On Amazon.com here in the US, this book has been released:

http://www.amazon.com/George-Szell-Life-Music-American/dp/0252036166/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312756907&sr=1-1

Unless you're in a super-hurry to get your hands on it, you could wait some time for some more used copies, at cheaper prices, to appear down the line. However, don't let my advice stop you if you really, really want the book :winkeye: .

PJPJ

08-08-11, 08:10

How about Eduard van Beinum, whose recordings have always impressed me......

... and me, too. I've got his son's biography of him - it's a pity it's not been translated into English.

http://www.dutchdivas.net/dirigenten/eduard_van_beinum06.html

Biffo

28-09-11, 11:12

I can second the recommendation of the Szell/Haydn Symphonies box.

Another strange ommission, I have been unable to find out very much about Knappertsbusch. Very little in English and one longish internet posting in German which seemed rather opaque (to my admittedly inadequate German).

HighlandDougie

28-09-11, 16:27

Flying my tartan flag, 2 items from his sojourn in Glasgow as Conductor of the-then Scottish Orchestra:

"That year Sir John Barbirolli was invited to New York, and was soon appointed as Toscanini's successor at the Philharmonic. While he was negotiating his contract in New York, (Evelyn) Rothwell continued to play for the Scottish Orchestra. She turned down an offer of marriage from its new conductor, George Szell, and in 1939, after Barbirolli was divorced from the singer Marjorie Parry, they were married, and she went to live with him in New York." - quoted from the obituary of Evelyn Rothwell in The Times. Szell clearly found an alternative as he married the 2nd Mrs Szell in 1938.

And, for interest, see

http://www.sickinger.com/rsoconcerts.html

for the programmes from his seasons in Glasgow.

Haydn symphonies duly ordered from Amazon - I'd forgotten about this box. His late 1950s set of the Schumann Symphonies is, for me, incomparable. Sony, when they re-mastered some recordings as 2-channel SACDs, included some Szell recordings which still sound pretty amazing, not least the afore-mentioned Schumann - 1 and 2 only, alas.

jayne lee wilson

28-09-11, 19:31

Don't forget the justly famous "Live in Tokyo" Szell/Cleveland set on Sony with Mozart 40 and Sibelius 2...

And a fine Schumann 2 live (reading - similar to Cleveland stereo one) with the Berlin Phil from the Philharmonie in 1969 on Testament, c/w Strauss Don Juan and Brahms Tragic Overture.

If you love his Mahler 4, there's an open-reel transfer as a high-definition download (said to be 24/96) at High Definition Tape Transfers... be warned, it is warts and all, but despite some roughness you'd be amazed at what's been missed from the CD issues, which sound muted by comparison. Can't say this site offers the best customer services though!

Barbirollians

28-09-11, 23:10

Szell's Tchaikovsky 4th and 5th symphonies are my favourite recordings of both works . I agree about that Mahler 4 and would throw in his Eroica too.

Colonel Danby

28-09-11, 23:38

I have always been fascinated by the life and work of David Munrow and the Early Music Consort of London, especially as I love medieval music and we were at the same school in Birmingham. I was amazed that no biography has appeared about him, and my researches only came up with a few obits in the broadsheets otherwise nothing. Might ít be that his tragic death by suicide in 1976 makes a study of a wonderful musician a little beyond the pale?

Dave2002

29-09-11, 05:10

Szell's Beethoven 5 cw Sibelius 2 with the Concertgebouw Orchestra has to be one of the great CDs.

Now, is anyone going to fill in the details about Szell renegotiating his contract. It has been left as a tease in an earlier post in this thread.

waldhorn

29-09-11, 09:20

I don't know about Szell's contract.
There is a story about a young musician ( possibly David Zinman - anybody know?) visiting Szell for a conducting 'lesson'.
Szell asks
"are you another one of those virtuoso pianists who thinks he can turn into a conductor?"
"No" comes the reply,
"actually I can't play the piano at all".
"Aha" snorts Szell, " then you will never, ever be a conductor!"
:winkeye::laugh:

Biffo

29-09-11, 10:59

Szell was also a fine pianist. The Sony Original Jacket Collection of his Mozart recordings has him accompanying Rafael Druian in four of the Piano & Violin Sonatas and also with members of the Budapest String Quartet in the Piano Quartets. Anyone who has enjoyed his Haydn Symphonies would probably like his Mozart as well. The 10 -CD set contains symphonies, concertos, serenades etc. Unfortunately, it also contains 'bonus' material- mono recordings of Symphonies 39, 40 & 41 and some non-Szell material. They are not really bonuses, just filling up what would overwise be short-measure discs.

Richard Tarleton

29-09-11, 11:03

Andre Previn told a story about how, as a young man, he visited Szell in a hotel room with a view to discussing a possible performance of the Strauss Burlesque. Szell told him to play a bit of it. Previn looked around for a piano - there was none. Szell indicated that he should play it on the coffee table. Previn did so - Szell said it was too slow (or fast, I forget which). Previn replied it was because he wasn't used to Szell's table, and played it much better on his own table at home.

The performance never took place.

remdataram

29-09-11, 12:19

Szell's Tchaikovsky 4th and 5th symphonies are my favourite recordings of both works . I agree about that Mahler 4 and would throw in his Eroica too.

Barbirollians,

Are you able to provide more information on the Tchaikovsky 4/5 and Beethoven Eroica recordings please? I recall a Decca Tchaik 4 but am unsure if this is the recording you refer to.

I, too, just love Szell's Mahler 4 - Abbado's recent Lucerne DVD is also very fine.

Best wishes......

aeolium

29-09-11, 13:29

I am very fond of Szell's recording of the Dvorak Cello Concerto with the great Pablo Casals and the Czech Philharmonic - the more poignant as it was recorded only a couple of years before Czechoslovakia was occupied. I don't think I've heard a more eloquent performance.

Dave2002

29-09-11, 13:42

Barbirollians,

Are you able to provide more information on the Tchaikovsky 4/5 and Beethoven Eroica recordings please? I recall a Decca Tchaik 4 but am unsure if this is the recording you refer to.
As I recall Szell's T4 was originally on a Decca LP, while T5 was on CBS. He may have done more, but those were the ones which I think were most praised. I'm guessing that these are the CD re-releases you want to know about -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tchaikovsky-Symphony-Beethoven-Music-Egmont/dp/B00000E475/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317300000&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Tchaikovsky-Symphony-No-Pyotr-Ilyich/dp/B0000025PK Note - you might have to hunt around a bit to get a CD version of this one. Amazon UK appears to offer downloads, but the US site has the CD.

remdataram

29-09-11, 14:40

Many thanks,

I'll pursue copies of both.

Was the Beethoven Eroica originally a CBS issue?

bws

jayne lee wilson

29-09-11, 20:16

It's a great disc yes, but the Live (unedited) 1970 Tokyo Sibelius 2 has a blazing power and intensity, and it is the Clevelanders - try to get it (prices!) if you're a fan!

I don't know that anecdote but here's a good one...
"After he [Szell] had stalked out of the New York Met. in 1954, someone observed to Rudolf Bing, the manager, that George Szell was his own worst enemy.
"Not while I'm alive," said Bing.
Szell's Beethoven 5 cw Sibelius 2 with the Concertgebouw Orchestra has to be one of the great CDs.

Now, is anyone going to fill in the details about Szell renegotiating his contract. It has been left as a tease in an earlier post in this thread.

Curalach

29-09-11, 23:49

It's a great disc yes, but the Live (unedited) 1970 Tokyo Sibelius 2 has a blazing power and intensity
I totally agree, it is a blistering performance. I had heard them do it at the Edinburgh Festival not long before which was, without doubt, the finest live performance of Sibelius 2 I have ever heard.
At the same festival I heard the Berlin Phil with Karajan and for my money the Cleveland and Szell knocked them into a cocked hat!!

Barbirollians

30-09-11, 00:36

Dave is right - the tchaikovsky 4 came on a Decca CD coupled with the music from Egmont - strange coupling great performance . There appears to be a much cheaper alternative coupling http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tchikovsky-Symphony-Juliet-Fantasy-Overture/dp/B00002DDOD/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1317339587&sr=8-5The Tchaikovsky 5 I have was a CBS Odyssey CD .http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tchaikovsky-Symphony-No-Pyotr-Ilyich/dp/B000F6YW26/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1317339471&sr=8-4

The Eroica was on Sony essential Classics .http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Symphony-No-Eroica/dp/B000026EK2/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1317339681&sr=1-2

Jayne - I thought that was what Ernest Bevin was rumoured to have said about Herbert Morrison .

Agree with aeolium too . That Casals/Szell performance is superb.

amateur51

30-09-11, 00:54

Jayne - I thought that was what Ernest Bevin was rumoured to have said about Herbert Morrison .

:ok::biggrin:

Biffo

30-09-11, 13:14

Just to add to the above, there is also a live Salzburg Festival performance of the Eroica with the Czech Philharmonic (mono) available either from Sony as a single disc coupled with the Egmont Overture or part of a seven-disc set from Orfeo of Szell's Salzburg performances from 1958-68. The latter box is mainly Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn but includes a Bruckner 7 (available separately from Sony), all mono.

pastoralguy

30-09-11, 16:55

Here's another story.

At the end of Szell's tenure with the Scottish Orchestra the players made him a small presentation. Szell replied, "I'd like to thank you for your generosity during my time here. I've only ever asked for one pitch but you have invariably given me several...!"

bluestateprommer

12-10-11, 17:46

One more review of Michael Charry's new bio of Szell, from Down Under:

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/wielding-a-baton-for-great-maestro-20111006-1la6p.html

Current sales rank on Amazon.co.uk as of this posting: 85,522. Not bad.

Karafan

15-10-11, 16:26

Well, for Petrushka, Karafan and others, your wish for a George Szell biography has been granted, c/o Michael Charry, who has written such a tome called George Szell: A Life of Music. Review from Tim Page in the Wall Street Journal is here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052702303406104576445911683308584.html

The Amazon.co.uk link is here, but it's not yet been released in the UK (read further, however):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/George-Szell-Life-Music-American/dp/0252036166/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312756877&sr=1-1

On Amazon.com here in the US, this book has been released:

http://www.amazon.com/George-Szell-Life-Music-American/dp/0252036166/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312756907&sr=1-1

Unless you're in a super-hurry to get your hands on it, you could wait some time for some more used copies, at cheaper prices, to appear down the line. However, don't let my advice stop you if you really, really want the book :winkeye: .

Thanks for the heads-up, Bluestateprommer! Much obliged....

barber olly

15-10-11, 16:52

[QUOTE=Dave2002;87324]As I recall Szell's T4 was originally on a Decca LP, while T5 was on CBS. He may have done more, but those were the ones which I think were most praised.

The Decca Tchaik 4 was not issued in Szell's lifetime as he was, for some reason, not happy with it. Joy of joys when it did come out it was on the bargain World of... label, at the same time his Cleveland 5th was on CBS Classics (mid-price). On the strength of these we can only imagine what he would have made of the Pathetique!

bluestateprommer

07-07-12, 21:01

There was a radio feature on NPR today about Szell, with author Michael Charry, and 2 short spoken clips from Szell:

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/07/156219408/remembering-george-szell-powerhouse-conductor

The transcript isn't 100% complete of the radio feature, FYI.

For a "counter-point of view", Tully Potter has some choice comments about Szell here:

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/focus/the-forgotten-great-conductors

BTW, the Amazon rankings on Charry's biography as of this writing:
Amazon.com = 3,719
Amazon.co.uk = 558,511

Karafan

08-07-12, 16:03