View Full Version : Can you get to the Proms?
BudgieJane
30-08-11, 09:17
This wasn't really the issue for Radio 3 listeners. We could barely hear the orchestra at all for much of the time. Whatever the sound balance in the hall, we did not have the huge benefit of the visual compensating for any aural inbalances.
I'm getting a bit fed up with reading all these comments about how bad the radio sound is. If you don't like the sound on the radio, come in person to the concerts. And don't say that Yorkshire is too far away; we have regular Prommers from Germany, Sweden, the USA, Australia and New Zealand, to name but a few countries. If they can do it, so can you.
Jane, though I disagree with E.A.'s assessment of the audio engineering in this instance, there no question that for at least a couple of Proms this year (specifically Proms 1 and 4) there was a serious problem of heavy dynamic compression applied to all transmission modes. There have also been a couple of stretches (each of 2 to 3 days) when the HD Sound via the schedule and iPlayer page links was garbled. I do think such problems deserve raising and discussing here.
In the current instance I have a feeling that E.A. would not have been happy with the balance heard in the RAH either. Though the orchestra was large for a period band, it was directed with considerable delicacy, I thought.
. And don't say that Yorkshire is too far away; we have regular Prommers from Germany, Sweden, the USA, Australia and New Zealand, to name but a few countries. If they can do it, so can you.
Yes. And for what it's worth, it wouldn't be unusual to see all of these nationalities (and a Korean!) represented on the first row at the same time.
Eine Alpensinfonie
30-08-11, 10:10
I'm getting a bit fed up with reading all these comments about how bad the radio sound is. If you don't like the sound on the radio, come in person to the concerts. And don't say that Yorkshire is too far away; we have regular Prommers from Germany, Sweden, the USA, Australia and New Zealand, to name but a few countries. If they can do it, so can you.Well of course I could get there, as I'm usually off work during August, and in most years I do pay a few visits. I love the atmosphere of the RAH. But the pilgrimage hasn't been possible either last year and this year, for family reasons.
But you are missing the point, Jane. The BBC would not pay the subsidy for these concerts if it did not broadcast them. Broadcasting is their business.
Oh, and I think Bryn might disagree with me whatever I said. :winkeye:
I'm getting a bit fed up with reading all these comments about how bad the radio sound is. If you don't like the sound on the radio, come in person to the concerts. And don't say that Yorkshire is too far away; we have regular Prommers from Germany, Sweden, the USA, Australia and New Zealand, to name but a few countries. If they can do it, so can you.
:doh:
Well of course I could get there, as I'm usually off work during August, and in most years I do pay a few visits. I love the atmosphere of the RAH. But the pilgrimage hasn't been possible either last year and this year, for family reasons.
But you are missing the point, Jane. The BBC would not pay the subsidy for these concerts if it did not broadcast them. Broadcasting is their business.
I think you're being too generous, EA. That earlier commment is the most ridiculous I have read in a while. Radio 3 listeners have every right to expect good audio engineering of the concerts - to say people should stop complaining and get down to the RAH smacks of a smug attitude which suggests people have nothing else to do with their lives apart from spend hours each day outside and inside the Hall. Very enjoyable for some, no doubt, but hardly practical for everyone, especially those living well outside the capital. The concerts have been broadcast in their entirety by R3 since time immemorial, and the station never stops reminding us to listen these days, so I think we should expect and demand high standards of sound quality.
In this instance, however, I was not suggesting the engineering was necessarily at fault, merely expressing some disappointment that I could not make out more of the detail in the orchestral contribution, which as a period instrument and performance enthusiast I was very much looking forward to.
The concerts have been broadcast in their entirety by R3 since time immemorial
Really? I am sure I can remember a time when they were shared between R3's predecessor, the Third Programme, and the Home Service.
By the way, with one exception, the largest peaks during the broadcasts result from orchestral contributions, though admittedly it's a drum gives that boost.
Serial_Apologist
30-08-11, 11:33
I'm getting a bit fed up with reading all these comments about how bad the radio sound is. If you don't like the sound on the radio, come in person to the concerts. And don't say that Yorkshire is too far away; we have regular Prommers from Germany, Sweden, the USA, Australia and New Zealand, to name but a few countries. If they can do it, so can you.
This kind of attitude seems to have become somewhat "current" among a certain group of self-proclaimed chummy front rowers at the Proms this year. :grr:
One supposes that it hasn't occurred to them that regular Prommers from e.g. Germany, Sweden, Australia and New Zealand must be on pretty good incomes to be able to attend the Proms on that basis? Or, for that matter, that unemployment in the NE here has for a long time been among the highest anywhere in the EU, while working hours nationwide are amongst the highest?
But one also supposes that wouldn't occur to someone who quotes their address as... Beckenham? :whistle:
S-A
Al R Gando
30-08-11, 12:06
I'm getting a bit fed up with reading all these comments about how bad the radio sound is. If you don't like the sound on the radio, come in person to the concerts. And don't say that Yorkshire is too far away; we have regular Prommers from Germany, Sweden, the USA, Australia and New Zealand, to name but a few countries. If they can do it, so can you.
That strikes me as an ill-considered remark. The concerts are promoted by the BBC - the middle "B" stands for "Broadcasting", in case you forgot? Even the capacious leviathan of the Albert Hall could not accommodate 1/100th of those who listen at home. Moreover, many are unable to afford the luxury of travelling to London where a coffee & sandwich will cost five pounds, and a hotel-room for the night a king's ransom. Others are too infirm to make such a journey. I suggest you give some thought to such matters before making this kind of comment.
But one also supposes that wouldn't occur to someone who quotes their address as... Beckenham? :whistle:
Or one whose forum image is... a parrot :(
to say people should stop complaining and get down to the RAH smacks of a smug attitude which suggests people have nothing else to do with their lives apart from spend hours each day outside and inside the Hall.
Is 7.50 really that onerous for a seat in the circle? Don't be cheap now; it's really worth it. :smiley:
As I've said, I've been doing an enormous amount of reading and writing every day, and have nothing to be ashamed of as far as how I'm spending my summer. While I agree with you that broadcast quality should be kept high, I can't help but wonder what percentage of all this "concern" is mere nitpickery.
Or one whose forum image is... a parrot :(
I've never known Jane to do anything but think for herself. She's a bird lover, and poking fun at avatars rather than addressing the issues at hand is quite nasty of you.
Looks more like Melopsittacus undulatus, what the Brits know as a budgerigar (what Americans, I seem to recall name a parakeet) to me. It is indeed of the parrot group, but not what most people would identify as a parrot.
I'm getting a bit fed up with reading all these comments about how bad the radio sound is. If you don't like the sound on the radio, come in person to the concerts. And don't say that Yorkshire is too far away
I'm also fed up with comments like this. Yorkshire is not too far away, neither is Wales and it's not the cost of a ticket alone, which is cheap, its a) train fare which would be between £50-£60 return depending on timings, b) as I live 30 miles from a station the cost of a taxi back home from my nearest station (last trains leave London at 22.45 or 23.30) which would be on average £35-£40 at 2.00am or the alternative is not missing the end of the late night Prom and staying overnight and paying for accommodation in London. So, it's not lack of wanting, it's lack of finances to be able to shell out well over £150 to £200 per concert.
Incidentally, I like Jane's avatar, it's very pretty and feminine.
Panjandrum
30-08-11, 15:08
Is 7.50 really that onerous for a seat in the circle? Don't be cheap now; it's really worth it. :smiley:
Ever travelled by National Rail? You need to multiply that 7.50 tenfold, then add a pony for the cost of an acceptable meal, and you're looking at least a ton for the night. If quibbling over a hundred smackers is mere "nitpicking" then so be it. :doh:
Ever travelled by National Rail? You need to multiply that 7.50 tenfold, then add a pony for the cost of an acceptable meal, and you're looking at least a ton for the night. If quibbling over a hundred smackers is mere "nitpicking" then so be it. :doh:
Travelling down as I do from central England by rail is anywhere from £27-£50 depending on time of day. Cheaper tickets are available usually at some unearthly hour and if you want to travel by Megabus/Megatrain be prepared to be treated like cattle as well. I can get a decent hotel room for £69 a night and an acceptable enough meal (at a Garfunkel's, for instance) for around £12 though I often snack it. Add a decent stalls ticket (don't want to stand in the Arena after tramping round London all day and the recent Haitink Brahms were £42 each) and you are looking at a hefty bill and you can multiply all but the train fare by how many days spent there. That's why a major disappointment, like the recent mutilated Gergiev Swan Lake, really does hurt.
makropulos
30-08-11, 16:45
Travelling down as I do from central England by rail is anywhere from £27-£50 depending on time of day. Cheaper tickets are available usually at some unearthly hour and if you want to travel by Megabus/Megatrain be prepared to be treated like cattle as well. I can get a decent hotel room for £69 a night and an acceptable enough meal (at a Garfunkel's, for instance) for around £12 though I often snack it. Add a decent stalls ticket (don't want to stand in the Arena after tramping round London all day and the recent Haitink Brahms were £42 each) and you are looking at a hefty bill and you can multiply all but the train fare by how many days spent there. That's why a major disappointment, like the recent mutilated Gergiev Swan Lake, really does hurt.
Absolutely dead right, Petrushka. Coming down from Sheffield to a Prom is the easy bit (and often the cheapest bit with a bargain rail ticket), but getting back afterwards is virtually impossible (last train at 10:25 from St Pancras is usually cutting it too fine - and at weekends that train goes at 8:55 p.m. which is useless). So it's very easy for people who live within, say, 60 miles of London to do this, and to get home afterwards. When I lived in Kent I wouldn't hesitate to do exactly that. But once you factor in a hotel (especially), meals and the like, it all becomes a bit of a campaign.
For really promising concerts, it's well worth doing, of course, but in my view it's pretty outrageous to suggest that we should just expect to make a bit of an effort and just turn up to London concerts. As you have explained, that's not as simple as it sounds. And there is nothing at all wrong with expecting decent broadcast quality - after all, it's what we get most nights.
I can see both sides of this argument, and it's a shame I seem to be in such a minority. I Prom, I don't live in London, and so far this season I've spent more on accommodation, and more on food and drink in the Hall, than the cost of my season ticket. By the end of the season the cost of rail tickets will also be over that amount. It's not cheap. But if the out-of-towners want some respect for their arguments then they ought to recognise firstly, that Jane didn't say that it was cheap, or easy, only that it can be done and is done by people with even more challenging journeys, and secondly, that there are Prommers who live in London who travel for live music as far afield as Glyndebourne, Southampton, the Edinburgh Festival, the Paris Opera, Bayreuth, Verona Arena, the New York Met ...
I can see both sides of this argument, and it's a shame I seem to be in such a minority. I Prom, I don't live in London, and so far this season I've spent more on accommodation, and more on food and drink in the Hall, than the cost of my season ticket. By the end of the season the cost of rail tickets will also be over that amount. It's not cheap. But if the out-of-towners want some respect for their arguments then they ought to recognise firstly, that Jane didn't say that it was cheap, or easy, only that it can be done ...
Indeed Philip, out-of-towners can do it - if they have the money (which was my point) I know plenty of people who are on low incomes or unemployed or just have the State Pension. For them an outlay on a cd is a major purchase, a meal out is more or less an impossibility. I don't know how much your annual Prom bill is, £500-£1000+?, none of my business, and if you can afford it then good for you but please don't categorize those who simply don't have any spare pennies to get up to London as not making an effort.
.. please don't categorize those who simply don't have any spare pennies to get up to London as not making an effort.
I didn't, and don't, but there are many who could make the effort and don't. I'm quite sure there are many thousands who enjoy listening to the Proms on the radio, thinking they wish they could be there and that they'd do it if only they lived in London. The point is that living in London is not a pre-requisite, as countless examples demonstrate.
My Prom budget is my annual holiday fund. That used to be one month's take-home pay, less now that I have a new job and can't get to the concerts after work any more.
BTW, someone I know, not very well, lives in South-East Wales and has attended two Proms so far this season for next to nothing. Honest. Oh, all right - he sings in the BBC National Chorus of Wales.:smiley:
I didn't, and don't, but there are many who could make the effort and don't.
I'm one of those tonight, but I do need sleep before working tomorrow.
Vile Consort
30-08-11, 18:51
Getting back to Leeds after a prom is no joke either. You could risk booking for the 2200 train, but even that doesn't get into Leeds until 0219, and the safer 2330 doesn't arrive until 0246.
The last train on a Saturday is 2209, so probably not feasible at all. Sundays aren't too bad with the last train departing 2232 and arriving Leeds as early as 0130.
Then there's the hour's drive home, of course, all trains beyond Leeds having stopped around 11pm.
All this would necessitate taking two days off work!
Panjandrum
30-08-11, 18:56
I didn't, and don't, but there are many who could make the effort and don't. I'm quite sure there are many thousands who enjoy listening to the Proms on the radio, thinking they wish they could be there and that they'd do it if only they lived in London. The point is that living in London is not a pre-requisite, as countless examples demonstrate.
Some of us could do; and could afford to do so now and again: however, we prefer to spend at least the daylight part of our free time enjoying social and sporting activities en plein air, doing our bit to reduce the burden on the NHS. :winkeye:
Personally, I like to listen to concerts at a time of my choosing, not when Auntie decides that, like a good boy, I should be sitting in some stifling auditorium when I could be enjoying a rubber of tennis or, to the bemusement of Estelle, the joy of leather on willow and the intoxicating aroma of linseed. Which is why I, like others, feel entitled to have a damned good moan that the promised 320kbps "HD" is, for some unaccountable reason, unavailable to listen again, despite various presenters assuring us to the contrary. :grr:
makropulos
30-08-11, 19:00
I didn't, and don't, but there are many who could make the effort and don't. I'm quite sure there are many thousands who enjoy listening to the Proms on the radio, thinking they wish they could be there and that they'd do it if only they lived in London. The point is that living in London is not a pre-requisite, as countless examples demonstrate.
My Prom budget is my annual holiday fund. That used to be one month's take-home pay, less now that I have a new job and can't get to the concerts after work any more.
BTW, someone I know, not very well, lives in South-East Wales and has attended two Proms so far this season for next to nothing. Honest. Oh, all right - he sings in the BBC National Chorus of Wales.:smiley:
You need to make your mind up about this: you say you didn't categorize people who can't afford to do this on a regular basis because of distance/expense, and then declare on the basis of no evidence that "many" people "could" make the effort. Nobody said living in London was a pre-requisite, but living at least closer - Home counties - or on a rail line that works sensibly after dark - makes the whole thing more feasible.
I object strongly to the implication that people should "make an effort" in order to earn some sort of right to comment on things like the sound quality of Proms broadcasts. This is the sort of pompous, information-free nonsense that was only ever spouted by a few Arena zealots back in the years when I used to have a season ticket. I hope that's not the trend again now.
But I'm very glad you put your holiday fund to such admirable use. I'm sure you're not assuming that everyone else can do the same thing - or indeed that they have the luxury of an "annual holiday fund" that can be spent in such a splendid way.
Keep enjoying the concerts - but please don't imagine that those of us who can't be there are often as you are somehow just failing to make the necessary effort. Anna's right - a lot of people (myself included) are simply not in a position to do that at the moment.
Most years the Proms is my annual holiday and, rather like PhilipT, I set up an Annual Proms Fund where the bulk of my horse race/lottery winnings end up.
By far the biggest bugbear for me is accommodation. How some places get away with such inflated prices is a mystery to me. Even Imperial College has got silly. The prospect of trying in 2012 in the middle of the Olympics fills me with dread.
Personally, I like to listen to concerts at a time of my choosing, not when Auntie decides that, like a good boy, I should be sitting in some stifling auditorium...
Absolutely.
The cost is but one factor. The convenience as regards the other commitments in one's life is, of course, another.
But the clincher, for me, is the venue. Who one earth wants to travel on a summer's evening from one of the most beautiful places in the world, which is where I'm fortunate enough to live, into some polluted, dirty, noisy, smelly, degenerate cesspit of glass, concrete, brick and tarmac, to sit/stand with 5000+ other people from all over the world, carrying an unknown number of diseases and emitting the foulest stenches - not limited to BO and curry but including those heavy perfumes some women seem to wear that are almost as offensive as cheap deodorants?
Try feeling in your ears or blowing your nose after a trip on the tube and a few hours in London. Black grime is what you'll see. Of course, it's not as easy to see the damage to your lungs...
hear, hear, well said ( written), Simon.
:ale:
Eine Alpensinfonie
30-08-11, 20:48
Incidentally, I like Jane's avatar, it's very pretty and feminine. It looks like a male to me.
Absolutely.
The cost is but one factor. The convenience as regards the other commitments in one's life is, of course, another.
But the clincher, for me, is the venue. Who one earth wants to travel on a summer's evening from one of the most beautiful places in the world, which is where I'm fortunate enough to live, into some polluted, dirty, noisy, smelly, degenerate cesspit of glass, concrete, brick and tarmac, to sit/stand with 5000+ other people from all over the world, carrying an unknown number of diseases and emitting the foulest stenches - not limited to BO and curry but including those heavy perfumes some women seem to wear that are almost as offensive as cheap deodorants?
Try feeling in your ears or blowing your nose after a trip on the tube and a few hours in London. Black grime is what you'll see. Of course, it's not as easy to see the damage to your lungs...Quite right Simon!:ok:
Furriners are smelly and disease-ridden - tis a well-known fact, my beauty! :laugh::laugh::doh:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/as5.pdf
I link to the above since my good friend John, who operates a carriage and pair, suffers badly from it on occasion. Not much chance of contracting it in the arena of the RAH. Then there's all that carcinogenic bracken to walk through at this time of year. :whistle:
Try dragging yourself into the 21st Century SS!, 'The Smoke" ain't so smokey any more, what TfL's Low Emissions Zone and all. Indeed, it's just possible the area around the RAH has rather better air quality than obtains round your parts.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/as5.pdf
I link to the above since my good friend John, who operates a carriage and pair, suffers badly from it on occasion. Not much chance of contracting it in the arena of the RAH. Then there's all that carcinogenic bracken to walk through at this time of year. :whistle:
Try dragging yourself into the 21st Century SS!, 'The Smoke" ain't so smokey any more, what TfL's Low Emissions Zone and all. Indeed, it's just possible the area around the RAH has rather better air quality than obtains round your parts.Blimey Bryn!
The air quality around Simon's parts is the last thing I want to contemplate, thanking you! :yikes::steam::laugh:
Eine Alpensinfonie
30-08-11, 20:57
There are some who live in or near London who assume that Boristown is the centre of the universe. They are wrong. The BBC makes the same assumption by holding all its Proms in London, even though the BBC is a national network. (Please don't even consider those so-called Proms in the Park.)
In Alpen Cloud Cuckooland the Proms would be a national classical music festival. There would be a concert in London every day - but only one. Some of these would be "late" or matinee Proms, but each would be supplement by a 7.00 p.m. Prom from another city. There would be two of these non-London Proms each week. As far as Radio 3 listeners would be concerned, there would be little change, as all concerts would continue to be broadcast live.
Let's involve the whole nation.
I object strongly to the implication that people should "make an effort" in order to earn some sort of right to comment on things like the sound quality of Proms broadcasts.
Exactly. This is surely the nub of the matter - we can all give different answers as to affordability, practicality, other commitments - but even if we could make it (and I have been to several Proms this year), that doesn't invalidate one jot any comments on any aspect of the radio broadcast, which is the way the vast majority are going to access most concerts.
Perhaps the original comment was just a wind-up (in which case it certainly worked!). :devil:
Eine Alpensinfonie
30-08-11, 21:03
Perhaps the original comment was just a wind-up (in which case it certainly worked!).
Maybe we should take the original comment seriously and pile into the arena and then elbow our way to the front row. :devil:
It's not nice to be over 80 and unable to get to the Proms any more but I went to hundreds when I worked in London. As we had free passes, working in music, the cost was a salad or cheese on toast at Lyon's Corner House and maybe a cup of coffee afterwards. I often also went to the rehearsals to hear the music taken to pieces and hopefully put together again. I really didn't realise how lucky I'd been until now.
To me the empty RAH at 9.30 in the morning is/was magic. :biggrin:
Serial_Apologist
30-08-11, 21:22
One way to avoid at least some of the costs that has so far not been considered is sleeping in the open. There are Prommers who have been alleged on these very boards to "do the rounds" of the homeless of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea after the concerts are over, bearing gifts of past sell by date buns, cheese and other victuals; if you're very lucky they might even recognise you!
It's not nice to be over 80 and unable to get to the Proms any more but I went to hundreds when I worked in London. As we had free passes, working in music, the cost was a salad or cheese on toast at Lyon's Corner House and maybe a cup of coffee afterwards. I often also went to the rehearsals to hear the music taken to pieces and hopefully put together again. I really didn't realise how lucky I'd been until now.
To me the empty RAH at 9.30 in the morning is/was magic. :biggrin:
You are magic, saly. Members only need to mention a work or a performer or an event, you come up with all those little episodes that no historians can ever write about but that which makes music feel extra special to us (to me). I feel infinitely lucky to be able to hear (read) these tales you tell us.
Il Grande Inquisitor
30-08-11, 21:46
I've only been to two Proms this season; the Verdi Requiem, which I was reviewing, and William Tell. Why not more? Well, cost is just one reason. A travelcard card costs me just over £20, plus £10+ taxi on returning (I don't fancy a two mile walk home at midnight); add this to the ticket price and the price of a snack/ meal and it's not a cheap night out. Another reason would be work. I'm not always able to attend the concerts I'd like due to not finishing early enough to get up to London. Indeed, I had to turn down reviewing the Freischütz prom as my line manager is away that week and I'm in charge, so dashing off at 4pm isn't going to be possible. (Most review jobs are either planned for days off or have a day's holiday booked.) In reality, I can only get to London a few times a month, both practically and financially.
However, the main reason I don't attend more Proms is that I really dislike the RAH. It's a pain in the arse to get to, compared to the RFH, the ROH, the Coli (or even the Barbican) and once there, the acoustics are frequently poor unless you've managed to book a stalls seat somewhere towards the sides and in front of where the fountain used to be. My colleague, reviewing William Tell, had a ticket at the back of the stalls and could hear very few of the soloists properly. Another friend, a singer, had a loggia seat (in the director's box) for the same prom and told me that she could barely hear Pertusi at all. If you're in a decent seat (and at a concert with the right sort of programme), the sound can be fine - the Verdi certainly was such a case.
I may be at odds with some members here, but I find the sound on Radio 3 a good deal better than listening in the RAH. I've not been able to hear many concerts on the radio at the time of broadcast (due to other listening/ writing commitments during the evening) but have downloaded several for future listening (from Radio Downloader at 320kbps) which sound excellent.
You are magic, saly. Members only need to mention a work or a performer or an event, you come up with all those little episodes that no historians can ever write about but that which makes music feel extra special to us (to me). I feel infinitely lucky to be able to hear (read) these tales you tell us.Hear! Hear! :biggrin:
"... it's just possible the area around the RAH has rather better air quality than obtains round your parts."
I suppose it is technically possible to believe that Kensington Gore is less polluted than a small village near Bakewell. It's also possible to believe in a flat earth. :winkeye:
a small village near Bakewell
Simon, I had a tremendously enjoyable and healthy week in Derbyshire this spring, staying in Youlgreave - perhaps you know it?
I know it well, pilamenon, and am delighted that you had an enjoyable time there. No doubt you walked through Lathkill Dale, visited Arbor Low and sampled the delights of The Farmyard. And you must surely have visited Haddon Hall.
Did they tell you that some of us from other villages call the place Pommy and the inhabitants "Sawyeds"? :biggrin: And why?
Serial_Apologist
30-08-11, 22:26
I always savour the delights of any farm yard - especially the country pancakes
I object strongly to the implication that people should "make an effort" in order to earn some sort of right to comment on things like the sound quality of Proms broadcasts.
No such implication was intended - at least, not by me.
Chris Newman
30-08-11, 22:42
I'm getting a bit fed up with reading all these comments about how bad the radio sound is. If you don't like the sound on the radio, come in person to the concerts. And don't say that Yorkshire is too far away; we have regular Prommers from Germany, Sweden, the USA, Australia and New Zealand, to name but a few countries. If they can do it, so can you.
This sounds just like Marie-Antoinette speaking about the shortage of clear sound quality to me :sadface:.
I have been to twelve concerts so far this season. Living in the West Country getting to the Albert Hall normally entails a six hour round journey plus queuing. Four of my concerts were over a weekend and involved staying up here so the journey time was lessened but the expense went up from £50 a day to £80. If I could afford to move to London for the duration of the Proms I would. However I have other expenses, activities and duties during the year and cannot just up myself as I please.
In the meantime I expect the BBC whom I pay for with my licence fee to provide music transmissions that are as good as they were thirty years ago. The consistency of transmission quality between one concert is not what it was and then the "boiling mud syndrome" has been far too frequent this year. I believe that by occasionally telling the Proms organisers and Radio 3 staff by email when their service is not up to the usual standard I am helping them in serving my fellow radio listeners. They are professionals and need to be kept informed. I do have the courtesy to thank the broadcasting people for all their hard work even though I my be pointing out a problem.
If you are reading that the radio sound is bad you are are just being inadvertantly made aware of a problem that effects the great majority of people who pay for the Proms.
The audio engineering for the Proms has, since the 2008 season, been the work of SIS, a company with it origins in horse racing. The BBC's outside broadcast wing was sold to the bookies owned company on April 1st 2008. Perhaps that's why the engineering is thought by some to be a bit of gamble.
BudgieJane
30-08-11, 23:34
Incidentally, I like Jane's avatar, it's very pretty and feminine.
It looks like a male to me.My avatar consists of two budgies, one male and one female.
Panjandrum
31-08-11, 07:03
I'm getting a bit fed up with reading all these comments about how bad the radio sound is. If you don't like the sound on the radio, come in person to the concerts. And don't say that Yorkshire is too far away; we have regular Prommers from Germany, Sweden, the USA, Australia and New Zealand, to name but a few countries. If they can do it, so can you.
Don't you think that the RAH would be a teensy weeny bit cramped if we all came down en masse? Or, perhaps you think they would lift the roof off to fit the additional 200,000 punters in? Or, perhaps they will decamp to the park next door and set up an impromptu Proms in the Park?
Eine Alpensinfonie
31-08-11, 08:43
My avatar consists of two budgies, one male and one female.I beg your pardon. I missed the one on the right. :smiley:
David Underdown
31-08-11, 09:38
While I'd agree that the ideal is to attend in person, and I continued to manage to attend pretty regularly during the 6 seasons when I was living and working in Peterborough - I accept that I was very lucky that personal circumstances allowed me the freedom to do so. However, it does seem to be a false dichotomy to say either try and attend in person or you've no right to complain about the broadcast sound, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the BBC to provide adequate broadcast sound quality
Ferretfancy
31-08-11, 10:07
I agree with you, David, listeners at home certainly deserve the best quality, which I suspect is not always being provided by the outside contractors who have replaced the experienced BBC staff who used to do the Proms year after year.
I do however detect a slightly dog in the mangerish whiff from a few contributors who seem to delight in knocking the Prommers in the front row. Can I gently point out that there are some season ticket holders who immediately make for the rear of the Arena because they prefer it there, and a large number of us who like to be near what used to be the fountain. We're quite a congenial lot actually, but then you know that. The charity collection organised by front rowers has reached about 60k so far,so the audience good will is still flourishing.
Al R Gando
31-08-11, 10:25
Apparently BBC World News no longer have to bother too much about providing decent coverage of international stories. After all, anyone who was seriously interested would just go to the trouble-spots in person to find out for themselves.
BetweenTheStaves
31-08-11, 11:43
Just because one hears German spoken among the audience or Swedish or whatever, doesn't necessarily imply that these people have travelled to the UK specifically to come to a Prom. They could just as easily be on long-term attachment or even living here. Even if they were on a visit, just as likely that they are here on business (ie hotel and travel paid for) as on pleasure. So hearing a foreign language is no arbiter. There is no doubt about it, you don't have to live too far outside the central conurbation to find that your last train home leaves just that bit too early. I have been to one Prom this year staying at a friend's house in Newbury. Even then the return journey from Paddington to Newbury was a bit of an epic with bus replacements and we didn't get back until around 2am. £25 return train fare plus my diesel cost to drive from Malvern to Newbury suddenly pushes the price of the whole trip well over £100.
So I rely on a decent quality radio programme.
David Underdown
31-08-11, 12:14
That is true. But, I know the people Jane refers to as well, and they really do come specifically for the Proms.
"Poor" is a relative term, and it all depends on your priorities. When I was an impoverished student, so many nights I remember making the choice between buying dinner and getting the $5 student rush ticket at the Philharmonic. I chose music every time, which is how I got in the habit of going to concerts on an empty stomach.
After I graduated I was still fairly broke, so I had a volunteer internship of sorts with an artistic administrator in exchange for all the concert tickets I possibly wanted. I ended up going out most nights of the week-- which, incidentally, is how I developed a preference for the extreme front left long before the Proms, since that's where they always put me. Old habits die hard, I suppose. :smiley:
There are some who live in or near London who assume that Boristown is the centre of the universe. They are wrong.
Really? There is no right or wrong, it's all about individual lifestyle habits and preferences. Personally, I can't imagine living in a fourth-rate city in England any more than I could imagine being stuck in some ghastly hick burg in the middle of nowhere in America. Give me Manhattan or London any day, but to each his own.
BetweenTheStaves
31-08-11, 12:49
That is true. But, I know the people Jane refers to as well, and they really do come specifically for the Proms.
Then they are very fortunate to (a) have the time and (b) the disposable income.
Just because one hears German spoken among the audience or Swedish or whatever, doesn't necessarily imply that these people have travelled to the UK specifically to come to a Prom. They could just as easily be on long-term attachment or even living here.
And the moon could be made of green cheese and there could be fairies at the bottom of my garden. Talk to the Swede in question and he'll happily tell you, in clear if accented and halting English, that he lives in Gothenburg. But he does also visit Buxton and Glyndebourne on some of his visits here.
"Poor" is a relative term, and it all depends on your priorities. Indeed, that is true but someone on job seekers allowance or the basic state pension or minimum wage doesn't have that luxury to prioritise do they? According to figures given by posters here the average cost to an out-of-towner (Wiltshire, Worcs, Yorkshire etc) is between £100-£150 per concert which is why a decent radio 3 broadcast is necessary.
Personally, I can't imagine living in a fourth-rate city in England any more than I could imagine being stuck in some ghastly hick burg in the middle of nowhere in America. Give me Manhattan or London any day, but to each his own.
I have no idea which cities in England you would classify as fourth-rate, or why. I happily live in what you would call a ghastly hick burg in the middle of nowhere in Wales. It's lovely. If I didn't live in Wales and had to live in England it would be Bristol (that's probably about 10th-rate on your list)
BetweenTheStaves
31-08-11, 13:11
And the moon could be made of green cheese and there could be fairies at the bottom of my garden. Talk to the Swede in question and he'll happily tell you, in clear if accented and halting English, that he lives in Gothenburg. But he does also visit Buxton and Glyndebourne on some of his visits here.
Not sure why you posted this as (a) my original point is still just as valid and (b) the fact that some Promenaders do, in fact, come over from Sweden etc has already been addressed by another. Still comes down to disposable income and time.
We live in N Wilts (Wootton Bassett - soon to be ennobled to royal status like the Albert Hall) and have no difficulty attending Proms. We have only been once this year so far (Das klagende Lied with Brahms violin) but the opportunity is always there. Although we could go by train from Swindon, it would be more expensive, slower and less convenient than going by car. It is mostly motorway. Google maps says it is 81.9 miles, taking 1.33 hrs and costing £15.72. Getting there takes longer than that due to traffic and you have to build in slack but afterwards the roads are fairly empty and you can easily be back by midnight. It is not difficult to park free in Queen's Gate. Total cost for two + Prom tickets = £25.72.
french frank
31-08-11, 13:17
Personally, I can't imagine living in a fourth-rate city in England any more than I could imagine being stuck in some ghastly hick burg in the middle of nowhere in America. Give me Manhattan or London any day, but to each his own.Crumbs! Some of us hicks have to live in fourth-rate cities (10th-rate by Anna's standards! :biggrin:). So that should raise the hackles of a fair number of UK cits.
I have been to one Prom. It cost £5 standing in the Gallery. I enjoyed it. But the entire outing cost about £150 for that one 2-hour concert + about 8 hours, walking, bussing, trains and tubes.
[The country would grind to a halt if we all 'chose' (supposing we had the choice) to live either in London or Simon's little Derbyshire village.]
Someone has already made the point (was it Ferret? - apols to whomsoever) that the principal problem is that the BBC no longer broadcasts the Proms directly - it has been 'outsourced' (dread term:sadface:)
What needs to happen is for someone in Radio 3 to talk to an old BBC outside broadcast specialist about exactly what is wrong with the current set-up, from balances to spotlighting to the HD failure, or to get the old hand to do it on behalf of the BBC.
And before someone mutters 'budgets' they need to consider that the furore on this thread and others is in fact a reputational disaster for BBC Radio 3.
But there again, if people are striving to drive the market generally, and Radio 3 specifically downwards, maybe this would be music to their ears :sadface:
And whether or not people are or are not able, physically and financially, to go to a Prom is utterly irrelevant to the point that R3 listeners have every right to complain if the quality of the radio broadcast is poor. The Proms are run by the BBC and every Prom is broadcast live. Licence-fee payers around the country pay for the BBC including R3 and the BBC orchestras. The Proms themselves are heavily subsidised by those licence-fee payers. It is a simply ridiculous argument to say, if you are not happy with the quality of the BBC radio broadcast you should go to the concert. If the BBC are going to broadcast the concerts then they should provide decent audio quality.
And whether or not people are or are not able, physically and financially, to go to a Prom is utterly irrelevant to the point that R3 listeners have every right to complain if the quality of the radio broadcast is poor. The Proms are run by the BBC and every Prom is broadcast live. Licence-fee payers around the country pay for the BBC including R3 and the BBC orchestras. The Proms themselves are heavily subsidised by those licence-fee payers. It is a simply ridiculous argument to say, if you are not happy with the quality of the BBC radio broadcast you should go to the concert. If the BBC are going to broadcast the concerts then they should provide decent audio quality.
aeolium - thank you - as ever - for cutting through the rubbish and getting to the essential truth. The provision by the BBC of proper broadcast quality is the issue.
I live in Shepherd's Bush and so - according to some - could easily go to the Proms. The 'possibility' of that is irrelevant. I loathe the RAH and the whole "Proms" experience; I love listening to (some) Proms on the radio. That is what the BBC should be delivering: it is a Broadcasting organization, its putting-on of live concerts is secondary. How many in the RAH? How many listening on the radio?
David Underdown
31-08-11, 13:53
Don't forget though that those listening in person do also contribute a significant proportion of the cost of the season, even though the numbers are relatively smaller. And in fact as has been argued on other threads, when you look at the costs per hour of the material with which the BBC can then fill significant amounts of broadcast time, the Proms is actually a very cheap way of filling the schedules (and that's only looking at TV broadcasts, the Radio 3 coverage could almost be said to be free)
If the BBC are going to broadcast the concerts then they should provide decent audio quality.
Very true, but one man's "decent" is another man's "dire". Do you really think SIS would do a deliberately substandard job when, as a contractor, they risk losing the contract and being replaced? Surely they're trying the best they can with the resources and personnel they have; whether or not that's good enough to be renewed isn't for you or me to say.
Just because we've got a handful of people around here screaming bloody murder about how all the audio engineers deserve to be lined up and shot doesn't mean they're being in any way objective, or that their standards of quality are in any way representative. It seems a bit like you're all demanding the finest quality possible-- which I suppose is only fitting--but are your demands honestly within reason? Oh well.
Crumbs! Some of us hicks have to live in fourth-rate cities (10th-rate by Anna's standards! ). So that should raise the hackles of a fair number of UK cits.
Well as I said, it totally depends on the kind of lifestyle you want, and I suppose I can see some advantages if I really try. However, I usually don't try, since I grew up in a 50th-rate town and couldn't get out of there fast enough the second I turned eighteen. As a teenager, I remember standing in the middle of my room with my crummy old record player belting along with Ethel Merman singing "Some People (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Du719jbDmE)". It was pretty much my anthem, really...definitely my inner "Enneagram 7" talking, not my "Enneagram 5". :biggrin:
Anyway, I'm sure that colours my views enormously. And now that you mention it, my hackles are raised by all the "stupid dirty foreigners" comments around here, so there you go. :erm:
french frank
31-08-11, 14:21
cavatina
Is there any aspect at all of the BBC, Radio 3 or the Proms which you're prepared to allow the people who pay for them to criticise without being challenged? If people pay for the services, their 'agenda' is obvious.
Do you really think SIS would do a deliberately substandard job when, as a contractor, they risk losing the contract and being replaced? Surely they're trying the best they can with the resources and personnel they have; whether or not that's good enough to be renewed isn't for you or me to say.
Have you followed the history of 'outsourcing' in UK, cavatina? Hospital cleaning ( resulting in the rise & rise of hospital infections), private seurity transer in prisons (some very dodgy results), etc, etc. A long history of contracts going to the lowest bidder, given by people who don't understand what's involved so price is king.
SIS may not deliberately plan to do a substandard job, but if BBC has got rid of the old-timers who knew what they were doing, who's to tell SIS they're doing substandard job?
Maybe the people who pay for it and appreciate high standards?
Us!! :ok::biggrin:
cavatina
Is there any aspect at all of the BBC, Radio 3 or the Proms which you're prepared to allow the people who pay for them to criticise without being challenged? If people pay for the services, their 'agenda' is obvious.
Of course you have the right to criticise anything you want, but there's no reason not to try to consider the flip side of the argument as well, especially given the "laypeople/professional" divide.
As someone who's infinitely more hypersensitive and irritable than most, I find I need to second-guess myself like this all the time: so often, what seems a reasonable complaint to me is radically out of step with everyone else's judgment. Telling professionals how to do their jobs seems risky at best, the absolute height of overweening narcissistic arrogance at worst.
A lot of us could do with a little more consideration and humility around here, myself most definitely included.
SIS may not deliberately plan to do a substandard job, but if BBC has got rid of the old-timers who knew what they were doing, who's to tell SIS they're doing substandard job?
Maybe the people who pay for it and appreciate high standards?
Us!!
Good point; fair enough. Still, I'm sure if any engineer is going to find what's written around here useful, it's in everyone's interest if we provide more thoughtful, careful, detailed analysis and a lot less generic heated blather. Reasoned specifics, not irate generalities.
Good point; fair enough. Still, I'm sure if any engineer is going to find what's written around here useful, it's in everyone's interest if we provide more thoughtful, careful, detailed analysis and a lot less generic heated blather. Reasoned specifics, not irate generalities.Uh-uh! The buck for this one stops with your well-paid lutrine chum, cavatina.
As a former boss of mine would have said 'It's Roger's balls that are on the shovel for this one and I'm going to make sure that he's fully aware of that' Do excuse the quango-demotic :smiley:
Perhaps a letter or a petition to Lord Patten? :erm:
Very true, but one man's "decent" is another man's "dire". Do you really think SIS would do a deliberately substandard job when, as a contractor, they risk losing the contract and being replaced? Surely they're trying the best they can with the resources and personnel they have; whether or not that's good enough to be renewed isn't for you or me to say.
Just because we've got a handful of people around here screaming bloody murder about how all the audio engineers deserve to be lined up and shot doesn't mean they're being in any way objective, or that their standards of quality are in any way representative. It seems a bit like you're all demanding the finest quality possible-- which I suppose is only fitting--but are your demands honestly within reason? Oh well.
Ignoring the pointless exaggeration in the second paragraph, it is not just a question of subjective response by a 'handful of people'. There is hard evidence of the poor quality on a number of Proms broadcasts (e.g. in that provided by johnb for two of the early Proms including the Gothic broadcast). By contrast, you have presumably heard none of the broadcasts, since you attend all the concerts. So once again you are responding to the arguments of those (including people knowledgeable about audio engineering) who have experienced poor broadcast quality for some of the concerts with assumption and assertion based on no evidence whatsoever, not even that of your own ears. For you, apparently, it is simply impossible for R3 to do any wrong.
I live in Shepherd's Bush and so - according to some - could easily go to the Proms. The 'possibility' of that is irrelevant. I loathe the RAH and the whole "Proms" experience; I love listening to (some) Proms on the radio. That is what the BBC should be delivering: it is a Broadcasting organization, its putting-on of live concerts is secondary. How many in the RAH? How many listening on the radio?
Absolutely, vinteuil. Like some others, I live in a despised hick town in the middle of nowhere, and I loathe going to London (William Cobbett, thou shouldst be living at this hour). I find it irksome when those who dare to criticise R3's audio quality are taken to task by Prommers who enjoy subsidised concerts which are intended to be broadcast.
french frank
31-08-11, 15:07
Telling professionals how to do their jobs seems risky at best, the absolute height of overweening narcissistic arrogance at worst.Those who pay the piper call the tune, even if they can't play a note themselves. You're quick enough to complain when you feel people are getting at you, yet you represent any criticism, reasoned or not, as some sort of orgy of maniacal bombast ('screaming bloody murder about how all the audio engineers deserve to be lined up and shot', 'generic heated blather', 'the absolute height of overweening narcissistic arrogance').
Could one just, gently, say that the audio quality frequently leaves quite a bit to be desired?
By contrast, you have presumably heard none of the broadcasts, since you attend all the concerts. So once again you are responding to the arguments of those (including people knowledgeable about audio engineering) who have experienced poor broadcast quality for some of the concerts with assumption and assertion based on no evidence whatsoever, not even that of your own ears.
You presume wrong. At night, I've been downloading some concerts to my hard drive and ripping the time limitations out of them so I can keep them forever. It's part of what keeps me awake till three or four in the morning, really. Oh, and I've also been using the I-player in the mornings when I want to hear a particular piece again.
For you, apparently, it is simply impossible for R3 to do any wrong.
Absolutely untrue, as you'd know if you'd read all my posts without your own biases. Now you're the one who's guilty of only seeing what you want to see. :erm:
David Underdown
31-08-11, 15:12
Who is subsidising who? as I hinted in a previous post, it's not as simple as it appears. On the other hand, while the engineers are indeed surely not seeking to produce substandard output, it does seem likely that some specialist knowledge has been lost in the transfer. The current providers are not, as has been pointed out, from a music background (though if course, some if the employees may be). Without knowing the details of the contract how can we know how likely it is that the contract can actually be terminated, and if technical deficiencies can be seen surely it's important to feed this back to the BBC so they can take the matter up with their contractors?
You presume wrong. At night, I've been downloading some concerts to my hard drive and ripping the time limitations out of them so I can keep them forever. It's part of what keeps me awake till three or four in the morning, really. Oh, and I've also been using the I-player in the mornings when I want to hear a particular piece again.
But that is not the same as hearing the broadcasts live - most people in all probability do not use I-player to listen to the concerts live. Though there have also been complaints about the sound quality on I-player, as other threads have indicated.
if technical deficiencies can be seen surely it's important to feed this back to the BBC so they can take the matter up with their contractors?
I completely agree - and that's why it is important that the criticisms are documented and reported to the BBC complaints dept.
Good point; fair enough. Still, I'm sure if any engineer is going to find what's written around here useful, it's in everyone's interest if we provide more thoughtful, careful, detailed analysis and a lot less generic heated blather. Reasoned specifics, not irate generalities.
Indeed. As in this post from cavatina a few days ago on a thread started by johnn perfectly illustrates:-
Not to put too fine a point on it, but when was the last time you had a hearing test? (Isn't it possible that getting older has left you more "capped" than you used to be?) Perhaps the Great Mystery of the Missing Frequencies could be solved with a simple trip to your otologist. :erm:
Obviously, nobody at the BBC has your exquisite, super-aesthete Des Esseintes-like sensitivities, so perhaps you need to get used to living in this hopelessly coarse world of ours, accept that radio isn't an ideal medium for audiophile purists, get a grip, and move on. Works for me! :ok:
I find it irksome when those who dare to criticise R3's audio quality are taken to task by Prommers who enjoy subsidised concerts which are intended to be broadcast.
They're intended to be appreciated by concertgoers and radio listeners alike. And this whole spurious "you have no right to comment because you didn't pay the license fee" line of thinking is a complete crock. Cambridge hired US analysts from my old think tank to comment on UK arts policy; obviously not everyone is provincial and bigoted. :erm:
I've seriously got half a mind to go cut a check right now, just to shut everyone up about it.
Al R Gando
31-08-11, 15:36
Oh, and I've also been using the I-player in the mornings when I want to hear a particular piece again.
May we enquire - without rancour, if possible? - if the performance of Mendelssohn's "Elijah" has featured amongst those to which you have Listened Again? Did the balance between chorus and orchestra seem to you identical with what you heard in the live performance? Did you find the upper and lower frequencies fully present in the iPlayer rendering, or clipped-off? Was the dynamic range on the iPlayer as variegated from loud to soft as you heard in the Albert Hall?
You see, several professional musicians - including at least one who was performing in the concert in question - have mentioned that what was broadcast was not, perhaps, the Full Shilling. :blush:
Indeed. As in this post from cavatina a few days ago on a thread started by johnn perfectly illustrates:-
You could have also pulled a quote from later in the thread when I apologised for being so dismissive after being shown exactly what they were talking about. Not my finest moment; oh well. :erm:
And this whole spurious "you have no right to comment because you didn't pay the license fee" line of thinking is a complete crock.
Who has made that comment? Anyone has a right to comment whether or not they pay the license fee - quite a few people living here don't as they don't have a TV. My point was that the BBC has an obligation to those to whom it broadcasts the concerts (many of whom are license fee payers) to provide decent audio quality. There is considerable evidence that it has been below par for a number of concerts.
Cambridge hired US analysts from my old think tank to comment on UK arts policy; obviously not everyone is provincial and bigoted.
What on earth has that got to do with a discussion on the BBC's sound quality?
Al R Gando
31-08-11, 15:48
My point was that the BBC has an obligation to those to whom it broadcasts the concerts (many of whom are license fee payers) to provide decent audio quality.
Agreed, and I would go further - the BBC also has obligations to the composers whose works have been played, to broadcast them to a deserving standard; and to the performers in the concerts - to give a fair and full audio (and optimally visual) portrayal of their professional work.
french frank
31-08-11, 15:56
several professional musicians - including at least one who was performing in the concert in question - have mentioned that what was broadcast was not, perhaps, the Full Shilling. :blush:I provided a link (http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?2965-Prom-58-Sunday-28th-August-2011-(Mendelssohn-Elijah)&p=79483#post79483) to that interesting discussion on the 'Elijah' thread, so I think there is little to disagree about on the point of the sound quality.
I quote from the instrumentalist you mention: "I have heard from colleagues that the balance sounded all wrong over the radio - as if the engineers had basically turned down the orchestra. This does not surprise me. Just about every live BBC broadcast I have ever heard that involves singers makes the singers sound unnaturally loud."
They're intended to be appreciated by concertgoers and radio listeners alike. And this whole spurious "you have no right to comment because you didn't pay the license fee" line of thinking is a complete crock. Cambridge hired US analysts from my old think tank to comment on UK arts policy; obviously not everyone is provincial and bigoted. :erm:
I've seriously got half a mind to go cut a check right now, just to shut everyone up about it.It's never a good idea to admit in print that you've seriously got half a mind, cavatina :biggrin:
And please stop going on about the old fish tank - it's getting very tedious - you checked the sums? Enough already! :doh:
There was a feature about the Hollywood prom on BBCTV Breakfast this morning - in the video clip that was played, one of the solo singers at the front appeared to be bellowing into a large microphone in her fist, but was all but inaudible... Be interesting to see if they sort that out by the time of the TX on Saturday... :erm:
Chris Newman
31-08-11, 16:11
We live in N Wilts (Wootton Bassett - soon to be ennobled to royal status like the Albert Hall) and have no difficulty attending Proms. We have only been once this year so far (Das klagende Lied with Brahms violin) but the opportunity is always there. Although we could go by train from Swindon, it would be more expensive, slower and less convenient than going by car. It is mostly motorway. Google maps says it is 81.9 miles, taking 1.33 hrs and costing £15.72. Getting there takes longer than that due to traffic and you have to build in slack but afterwards the roads are fairly empty and you can easily be back by midnight. It is not difficult to park free in Queen's Gate. Total cost for two + Prom tickets = £25.72.
My journey to London is 10 miles further, but I do nor have a car. Buying and owning one would bump up my annual expenses considerably and in Salisbury residents' parking is not cheap. Preferring to be green I hire one for long trips to visit relatives or for the occasional holiday. Not owning a car saves me a couple of thousand pound a year which pays for my Promming and visits abroad.
When I owned a car I only noticed free parking in London at weekends.
Sadly I find it costs about the same to fly to Prague for a fortnight (admittedly in March), stay in an apartment, and sit in comfy stalls seats to listen to a couple of Czech PO concerts and 8 opera performances (at the Estates Theatre, National Theatre and State Opera) as it does to go by train to London stay in University digs for a fortnight (in August) and stand for a dozen concerts at the Proms. The music, food and apartments are far cheaper in the east of Europe. Hardly surprisingly I go there now and again. I still come to the Proms because I like the variety and sound in the Albert Hall.
BetweenTheStaves
01-09-11, 17:26
....
Sadly I find it costs about the same to fly to Prague for a fortnight (admittedly in March), stay in an apartment, and sit in comfy stalls seats to listen to a couple of Czech PO concerts and 8 opera performances (at the Estates Theatre, National Theatre and State Opera) as it does to go by train to London stay in University digs for a fortnight (in August) and stand for a dozen concerts at the Proms. The music, food and apartments are far cheaper in the east of Europe. Hardly surprisingly I go there now and again. I still come to the Proms because I like the variety and sound in the Albert Hall.
That is very true, Chris. What little disposable income we have we prefer to spend going to see an opera in a foreign city rather than London.
BetweenTheStaves
01-09-11, 17:31
Very true, but one man's "decent" is another man's "dire". Do you really think SIS would do a deliberately substandard job when, as a contractor, they risk losing the contract and being replaced? ....
You are making a very important assumption here and that is whether or not anyone who has any say in these matters at BBC R3 actually cares. That is not to decry the many excellent sound engineers at the BBC...more a pointed finger at the bean counters and those who'd have us text in the latest contents of our dustbin.
Chris Newman
01-09-11, 17:34
Yes, opera seats in Prague, Brno or Belgrade are between a quarter and a third of the price of London. Even so I try to get to the ROH or ENO at least once a season but 1 ticket there is three elsewhere.
Eine Alpensinfonie
01-09-11, 18:13
Do you really think SIS would do a deliberately substandard job when, as a contractor, they risk losing the contract and being replaced? Surely they're trying the best they can with the resources and personnel they have; whether or not that's good enough to be renewed isn't for you or me to say.
But of course it's for the listeners to say whether or not it's good enough. I'm sure SIS would not deliberately do a substandard job, but when a public service hands its jobs out to private contracters, this can be a negative side-effect (sometimes, such as when the railways were privatised and Railtrack neglected the network for several years, the situation only being remedied after some serious train crashes).
Licence payers (and, yes, "licence" spelt with a second "c" when used as a noun) will, and should, speak out when broadcasting is sub-standard.
Al R Gando
01-09-11, 21:24
Yes, opera seats in Prague, Brno or Belgrade are between a quarter and a third of the price of London. Even so I try to get to the ROH or ENO at least once a season but 1 ticket there is three elsewhere.
Hmmm, I saw "Madam Butterfly" in Brno 5-6 years ago, and I would say that at a quarter of the price then it's still overpriced ;) Orchestra played like the band at Billy Smart's Circus, and the tenor would have been pensioned-off by the US Navy at least ten years earlier. Belgrade is also quite rough - most of the decent players have emigrated to earn decent wages. There is one rather elderly baritone there who is The Real McCoy, however - one of the best Renato's in "Masked Ball" I have ever heard (they still do the quaint "English Colonies" version there).
Chris Newman
01-09-11, 21:30
Hmmm, I saw "Madam Butterfly" in Brno 5-6 years ago, and I would say that at a quarter of the price then it's still overpriced ;) Orchestra played like the band at Billy Smart's Circus, and the tenor would have been pensioned-off by the US Navy at least ten years earlier. Belgrade is also quite rough - most of the decent players have emigrated to earn decent wages. There is one rather elderly baritone there who is The Real McCoy, however - one of the best Renato's in "Masked Ball" I have ever heard (they still do the quaint "English Colonies" version there).
Perhaps I was being a bit presumptious to include Brno and Belgrade not having ventured that far east but having them on my wish list and having heard good of them. I shall kick the shins of my obviously deaf friend. I can speak highly of Prague though having recently been there but choose things that are regularly in the repertoire. A once a month Aida is just to keep the chorus and orchestra up to date.
BudgieJane
01-09-11, 22:32
Having read through this thread, it seems that some of you would not mind if the Proms were abandoned completely and replaced by live broadcats of concerts from the studios at Maida Vale.
Al R Gando
01-09-11, 22:41
live broadcats.
http://www.germany.ru/wwwthreads/files/22-1126493-kot.jpg
All Your Proms Concerts Is Belong To Us
BudgieJane
01-09-11, 22:45
LOL!
Just back from the "Protest Prom" - how was the radio sound of the protesters ! :whistle:
Ps I was listening to the announcers on my mp3 - it seems they cut away and broadcast recordings instead
Just back from the "Protest Prom" - how was the radio sound of the protesters ! :whistle:
Ps I was listening to the announcers on my mp3 - it seems they cut away and broadcast recordings instead
As you're here perhaps you'd like to give us non-listeners an account of what happened in the Hall and how it was dealt with and how long the Prom over ran for?
Serial_Apologist
01-09-11, 22:54
How can one get away from the Proms?
All a bit pathetic really - during the Webern - a group in the upper choir stage right stood unfurled large handkerchiefs which read "free Palestine" and sang "free Palestine ... something la la something" to the Ode to joy. (someone said it was better performance than last night). They were bundled out but not before they had ruined the Webern. The last that was heard of them was thin spinsterish voice singing "free Palestine"
Thereafter there were protests at the start of each piece - mostly in the Circle - I was in the arena and we could see most of it. The first few had flags so were easy to spot - after the Bruch they appeared to have run out of flags - so were harder to spot.
At the start of the second half (which was the most sustained) some guy started in a box on the second tier - no sooner than he was removed other group started in the circle - they were removed and another group set off. By this time we were getting used to it ! It was quite fun watching the stewards and security running around ! A group started off at the start of the last piece - looked like a fight broke out.
Pleased to say nothing in the arena or gallery - well not that I saw (Mehta seemed to gesture thanks to the arena at the end) - although a man was lead away during the second half (security had been clearly looking for someone before hand).
Anyway I am no longer wondering why 66 mins of music was scheduled for 2 hours !
Eine Alpensinfonie
01-09-11, 23:14
Having read through this thread, it seems that some of you would not mind if the Proms were abandoned completely and replaced by live broadcats of concerts from the studios at Maida Vale.
What utter tosh. We have come to expect good quality of broadcast sound by the BBC from the Proms. We know they can do it - extremely well. But standards have become variable, and sometimes unacceptable.
All a bit pathetic really - during the Webern - a group in the upper choir stage right stood unfurled large handkerchiefs which read "free Palestine" and sang "free Palestine ... something la la something" to the Ode to joy. (someone said it was better performance than last night). They were bundled out but not before they had ruined the Webern. The last that was heard of them was thin spinsterish voice singing "free Palestine"
Thereafter there were protests at the start of each piece - mostly in the Circle - I was in the arena and we could see most of it. The first few had flags so were easy to spot - after the Bruch they appeared to have run out of flags - so were harder to spot.
At the start of the second half (which was the most sustained) some guy started in a box on the second tier - no sooner than he was removed other group started in the circle - they were removed and another group set off. By this time we were getting used to it ! It was quite fun watching the stewards and security running around ! A group started off at the start of the last piece - looked like a fight broke out.
Pleased to say nothing in the arena or gallery - well not that I saw (Mehta seemed to gesture thanks to the arena at the end) - although a man was lead away during the second half (security had been clearly looking for someone before hand).
Anyway I am no longer wondering why 66 mins of music was scheduled for 2 hours !
Great account, amac4165 :ok::ok::biggrin:
Thanks!
Very neat dig at last night's performance :laugh:
Musically - the concert was very good and the Orchestra under Mehta are clearly a very good band. A pity we didn't get a symphony in the second half - but in view of the disruption probably for the best ! They played the Bruch straight through and Shaham played an encore (Bach - sonata in C maj - preludio)
Second half went very well I particularly liked the Albeniz - and they played an encore Prokoviev Romeo and Julliet Death of Tybalt which was protest free !
Ah! And there was me a little surprised that the Webern has some pianissino singing. I didn't recognise it for what it was on the radio.
For those who attended in person, the BBC broadcast the Webern, complete with noticeable disruption towards the end, but switched to a recording (Shaham, but a different orchestra) before the Bruch was allowed to start. They tried again after the interval but again switched to recordings of the programmed works.
Lee McLernon
02-09-11, 10:32
Would have been impressed with a shout of "Arena to audience: the audience participation is tomorrow night!"
Very true, but one man's "decent" is another man's "dire". Do you really think SIS would do a deliberately substandard job when, as a contractor, they risk losing the contract and being replaced? Surely they're trying the best they can with the resources and personnel they have; whether or not that's good enough to be renewed isn't for you or me to say.
Just because we've got a handful of people around here screaming bloody murder about how all the audio engineers deserve to be lined up and shot doesn't mean they're being in any way objective, or that their standards of quality are in any way representative.
cavatina - I would like to put you right on the sound quality, because clearly you have no idea.
Speaking as a musician who has played in a few Proms and many other times at RAH, I know that the sound quality has gone down the chute, and that the balance of the orchestra and soloists, choirs etc is dire.
I say this as someone who has been recording musicians for years including some orchestral concerts. Making, producing and editing CD's as well. (All for professional musicians).
You want details of what's wrong? (Radio broadcasts).
OK. (1) The sound is often distorted because they put mics too close to for example the timps, so the mic can't handle the decibels. This is due to plain ignorance (and they probably use the wrong mics anyway).
(2) They have no idea how the sound spectrum should be handled and balanced - many Proms have been ruined by excessively loud and distorted bass.
(3) They use upwards of 40 mics and someone on the balancing desk who obviously has no ears, experience or any idea of what an orchestral balance should sound like, pushes the sliders up and down like a yoyo.
(4) mics are often at the wrong distance so there are problems of matching, which they are not even aware of.
(5) This miking technique (long ago known to be useless by those in the know) means that there is a lot of bleed from one section/instrument to another.
How often have you seen on TV the camera do a close up of say the triangle player, or any player for that matter, only to not be able to hear it!!
I can only say that the BBC sound broadcasts these days, especially of the Proms, is dire.
Eine Alpensinfonie
06-09-11, 17:12
Yes, and just think how annoying this must be for the conductor and players/singers, who work so hard to achieve an aural balance, just for this to be ruined by the equivalent of a spotty teenager doing the "sound" in an amateur musical show.
Serial_Apologist
06-09-11, 18:01
cavatina - I would like to put you right on the sound quality, because clearly you have no idea.
Speaking as a musician who has played in a few Proms and many other times at RAH, I know that the sound quality has gone down the chute, and that the balance of the orchestra and soloists, choirs etc is dire.
I say this as someone who has been recording musicians for years including some orchestral concerts. Making, producing and editing CD's as well. (All for professional musicians).
You want details of what's wrong? (Radio broadcasts).
OK. (1) The sound is often distorted because they put mics too close to for example the timps, so the mic can't handle the decibels. This is due to plain ignorance (and they probably use the wrong mics anyway).
(2) They have no idea how the sound spectrum should be handled and balanced - many Proms have been ruined by excessively loud and distorted bass.
(3) They use upwards of 40 mics and someone on the balancing desk who obviously has no ears, experience or any idea of what an orchestral balance should sound like, pushes the sliders up and down like a yoyo.
(4) mics are often at the wrong distance so there are problems of matching, which they are not even aware of.
(5) This miking technique (long ago known to be useless by those in the know) means that there is a lot of bleed from one section/instrument to another.
How often have you seen on TV the camera do a close up of say the triangle player, or any player for that matter, only to not be able to hear it!!
I can only say that the BBC sound broadcasts these days, especially of the Proms, is dire.
Ariosto
From reading cavatina's message 43 on the Prom 65 thread you will note that she holds a very particular perspective on sound balances. That said, I feel you will be very lucky to receive a reply to your post, as she has been disregarding many comments from others disagreeing with her pov, and not just me, for quite some time now.
Ariosto
From reading cavatina's message 43 on the Prom 65 thread you will note that she holds a very particular perspective on sound balances. That said, I feel you will be very lucky to receive a reply to your post, as she has been disregarding many comments from others disagreeing with her pov, and not just me, for quite some time now.
Thanks for that S-A - I thought I should try and put her right as she is saying people on here have no qualifications or practical experience to be able to judge good or bad sound quality, whereas it's obvious that she has no clue whatsoever. The sound on FM radio has been bad for at least two years and probably three. Last year we had too much distorted bass which became unbearable.
The truth is that the BBC are now just a bunch of amateurs as far as many music recordings/live broadcasts are concerned. OK, they occasionally get it more or less right, but rarely with the big concerts where a lot of performers are involved.
And as I'm now a licence payer (which is more than she is!) for a few months at least, I demand better sound!!
Panjandrum
06-09-11, 19:21
Ariosto
From reading cavatina's message 43 on the Prom 65 thread you will note that she holds a very particular perspective on sound balances. That said, I feel you will be very lucky to receive a reply to your post, as she has been disregarding many comments from others disagreeing with her pov, and not just me, for quite some time now.
I bet she still reads these threads though. :winkeye:
I don't think we'll be missing any pearls of wisdom though if she doesn't respond. Good post Ariosto. :ok:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.