View Full Version : Prom 74: Saturday 10th September at 7.30 p.m. (Last Night of the Proms)
Eine Alpensinfonie
02-09-11, 07:36
Conductor Edward Gardner leads the traditional festivities of the Last Night of the Proms with performers including super-star pianist Lang Lang playing Liszt and soprano Susan Bullock singing Wagner.
Gardner, who is the youngest Last Night conductor since Sir Henry Wood himself on the first Last Night in 1895, brings a youthful verve to the celebrations, and it's an event he's looking forward to greatly: "I was aware of the Last Night as a kid and to be involved is extraordinary." He's joined by leading dramatic soprano Susan Bullock who performs Brunnhilde's famous 'Immolation Scene' which concludes Wagner's epic Ring cycle, as well as leading the customary communal singing after the Interval. Super-star pianist Lang Lang - the man who's inspired millions of Chinese children to take up the piano - performs Liszt, a composer who he describes as a "rock star" but also a "truly great musician" - words that could equally describe Lang Lang himself.
But it's the Prommers who give the Proms their special atmosphere. Standing night after night in the arena and the gallery their attentiveness and enthusiasm for the music inspires performers to produce exceptional performances. They also organise the nightly collection which raises thousands of pounds every year for musical charities. So it's fitting that this year the party begins with a celebration of the Prommers with a new work by Peter Maxwell Davies commissioned by the Musicians Belevolent Fund who are one of the beneficiaries of the annual collection
Sir Peter Maxwell Davies: Musica benevolens (Musicians Benevolent Fund commission - World Premiere)
Bartók: The Miraculous Mandarin - suite
Wagner: Götterdämmerung - Immolation Scene
Liszt: Piano Concerto No. 1 in E flat major
Chopin: Grande Polonaise brillante, Op. 22
Grainger: Mo nighean dubh (My Dark-Haired Maiden)
Britten: The Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra
Rodgers: The Sound of Music - 'Climb ev'ry mountain'
Rodgers: Carousel - 'You'll never walk alone'
Elgar: Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1 in D major ('Land of Hope and Glory')
Arne: Rule Britannia
Parry (orch. Elgar): Jerusalem
The National Anthem
Lang Lang (piano)
Susan Bullock (soprano)
BBC Symphony Chorus
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Edward Gardner (conductor).
Ravensbourne
03-09-11, 20:26
Any bets as to who the narrator will be in The Young Person's Guide?
Chris Newman
03-09-11, 21:10
Hopefully nobody. Too twee with one: it works much better played without.
morebritishmusicplease
04-09-11, 10:23
I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but every year I bring up the fact that the glorious tune of Pomp & Circumstance No. 1 has decidedly inappropriate words for our times; after all, talking about our bounds getting 'wider and wider' doesn't make much sense when the British Empire no longer exists! There are, however, alternative words, written for the Coronation Ode of 1902. Surely some sort of adaptation of these would be much better? (Mind you, I'm not sure that 'truth and right and freedom' are exactly appropriate of modern Britain, either, but at least they are aspirational).
'Land of hope and glory,
Mother of the free,
How shall we extol thee,
who are born of thee?
Truth and Right and Freedom,
each a holy gem,
Stars of solemn brightness,
weave thy diadem.
Chorus
'Tho thy way be darken'd,
still in splendour drest,
As the star that trembles
o'er the liquid West.
Thron'd amid the billows,
thron'd inviolate,
Thou hast reign'd victorious,
thou hast smil'd at fate.
Soloists and Chorus
Land of hope and glory,
Fortress of the free,
How shall we extol thee?
praise thee, honour thee?
Hark! a mighty nation
maketh glad reply;
Lo, our lips are thankful;
lo, our hearts are high!
Hearts in hope uplifted,
loyal lips that sing;
Strong in Faith and Freedom,
we have crowned our King!'
Ravensbourne
07-09-11, 16:31
See the BBC Radio 3 blog entry on Calling all Prommers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio3/2011/09/calling-all-prommers---come-an.shtml):
Help us thank the Promenaders’ Musical Charities and the Musicians Benevolent Fund for their hard work. Here's how to learn your part:
Download the music file of Musica Benevolens (mp3) (http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/radio3/proms-assets/whatson/2011/lnotp_musica-benevolens_prommers-guide-audio.mp3)
Download the score for Musica Benevolens (PDF) (http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/radio3/proms-assets/whatson/2011/lnotp_musica-benevolens_pp3-4_prommers-text.pdf)
Ravensbourne
09-09-11, 14:55
See http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/september-10/85/programme-notes
Jenny Agutter is listed as narrator, with a newly commissioned poetic commentary by Wendy Cope.
MrGongGong
09-09-11, 15:00
It is (as has been stated very clearly on other threads !!) an entirely MUSICAL event
nothing to do with politics or anything extra musical at all
:laugh:
Will Max's piece quote the Sibelius "swan" theme ?
Al R Gando
09-09-11, 15:15
It is (as has been stated very clearly on other threads !!) an entirely MUSICAL event
nothing to do with politics or anything extra musical at all
Indubitably, Mr GG! Indubitably! :laugh:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03_01/promsDM0403_468x320.jpg
MrGongGong
09-09-11, 15:18
I for one
am TOTALLY SICK AND TIRED
of the relentless left wing nonsense peddled to us by the Bolshevik Broadcasting Committee
its obvious that the whole place is crawling with Marxists who are plotting to overthrow our noble nation as this image so clearly shows !
Serial_Apologist
09-09-11, 17:10
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3482980.ece
Al R Gando
09-09-11, 17:36
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article3482980.ece
LNOTP is one of the greatest disservices done to classical music. Many people - quite reasonably, since they haven't been, and London isn't at the end of every back garden - have the idea that the Proms are nothing but flagwaving for six weeks on end.
LNOTP is one of the greatest disservices done to classical music. Many people - quite reasonably, since they haven't been, and London isn't at the end of every back garden - have the idea that the Proms are nothing but flagwaving for six weeks on end.
Yes, I've had to explain this to no end of work colleagues and friends over the years and it does become very tiresome.
Serial_Apologist
09-09-11, 18:40
Some will still attend, notwithstanding - having made the marathon of having attended every single Prom this season.
:whistle:
Eine Alpensinfonie
09-09-11, 18:40
LNOTP is one of the greatest disservices done to classical music But THE greatest disservice is not in the RAH, but in Hyde Park. :sadface:
EdgeleyRob
09-09-11, 20:51
Yes, I've had to explain this to no end of work colleagues and friends over the years and it does become very tiresome.
Me too http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-angry046.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
LNOTP is one of the greatest disservices done to classical music. Many people - quite reasonably, since they haven't been, and London isn't at the end of every back garden - have the idea that the Proms are nothing but flagwaving for six weeks on end.
I think it certainly gives a bit of a false impression - but it is a double edged sword. LNOTP gets huge coverage but not quite the coverage you would really like ! You also have to remember that the BBC spends a lot of money on the proms - they have to justify that, both internally and externally. A huge "national" event (most people probably know of LNOTP) increases visibility and ticks a few boxes.
It is pity that someone didn't grasp the nettle some years and went the way of the Vienna New Year Day concert - programme a straight concert and leave all the "other" items to encores ! You could even select items to chosen form a tuba ! :laugh:
Al R Gando
10-09-11, 10:51
I think it certainly gives a bit of a false impression - but it is a double edged sword. LNOTP gets huge coverage but not quite the coverage you would really like ! You also have to remember that the BBC spends a lot of money on the proms - they have to justify that, both internally and externally. A huge "national" event (most people probably know of LNOTP) increases visibility and ticks a few boxes.
It is pity that someone didn't grasp the nettle some years and went the way of the Vienna New Year Day concert - programme a straight concert and leave all the "other" items to encores ! You could even select items to chosen form a tuba ! :laugh:
That's all very true :) But then - the BBC nets quite a little pot of income from the Proms too - those seated tickets are far from cheap, and the RAH seats a great number of people.
Your point about the Vienna NYD concert is very well made - you can make a huge PR success of playing popular classics as a "shop window" for more advanced fare... but without it turning into a football crowd or a brownshirt rally! Perhaps the time has come to export all of the flagwaving bandstand favourites to Hyde Park - since you couldn't drag that further downmarket even if you had 100 Management Consultants from Brighton trying - and tidied-up the RAH Last Night so that it was something truly worthy of the rest of the season, and went out on a spectacular artistic high? I am sure that if the BBC followed their instincts and staged something like Elgar's THE APOSTLES on the last night, the RAH would be no less packed. I believe that Vladimir Jurowski is itching to conduct it, too ;)
I am sorry to see that fine performer Susan Bullock caught up in the tawdriness of LNOTP this year - a great under-use of her talents.
David Underdown
10-09-11, 11:10
As has been pointed out previously on these boards, ticket income only covers about half the costs of the Proms. What the BBC have never revealed is the income they get from selling broadcast rights overseas (particularly for the Last Night), which one would imagine is not an insignificant sum.
Seeing it as a normal concert though is completely missing the point. It's an end of term party
Al R Gando
10-09-11, 11:23
It's an end of term party
You've nailed the problem in one, David :)
http://www.britishmovieclassics.com/sites/tanmutton/_files/Image/sttrincart.gif
aka "Heave-Ho!"
a lot of major towns and cities seem to hold their own "Last Night"-type concerts throughout the summer, in the local park, usually accompanied by fireworks, but I guess the original is still the best (if you like that sort of thing)
ucanseetheend
10-09-11, 14:16
Why O Why do we no longer get the "Sea Songs" , It's not as if they take up much time?
Eine Alpensinfonie
10-09-11, 14:26
Please will someone tell me what is wrong with the LNOTP? We have a world premiere from one of the most eminent living composers, works by Liszt, Wagner, Bartok, Britten and Chopin. A tiny proportion of the concert is taken up with audience participation - i.e. singing and a bit of flag waving. If and when this happens at other Proms, it's a different matter, and Proms in the Park really is scraping the barrel.
And I would like to see the Sea Songs reinstated (minus klaxons).
But copycat "Last Nights" just show a lack of imagination.
Oh please can we stop Roger Wright's covert attempt to replace the Sea Songs' place in the running order with 'You'll never walk alone'.... Second year of this looks rather deliberate planning?
Eine Alpensinfonie
10-09-11, 14:32
Why O Why do we no longer get the "Sea Songs" , It's not as if they take up much time?
Sorry, I missed your posting before writing mine. I wonder whether there was so much dissent when the Sea Songs were ruined by Bob Chilcott's addition of three extra bits to make the medley more representative of Britain as a whole. The trouble was that neither "All Through the Night" nor "Danny Boy" were nautical at all, though clearly the Skye Boat Song was. Furthermore, Bob Chilcott, highly skilled and respected for his choral writing, just "hadn't got it" when it came to this particular task. And it seems (and I'm only guessing) that the BBC decided to drop the whole thing rather than reinstate the Henry Wood original.
Eine Alpensinfonie
10-09-11, 14:36
Oh please can we stop Roger Wright's covert attempt to replace the Sea Songs' place in the running order with 'You'll never walk alone'.... Second year of this looks rather deliberate planning?
How do you think the Everton supporters feel? I met one the other day with a T-shirt emblazened with the words: "I always walk alone."
A few years ago, I wrote my own Sea Songs Medley, and included "Johnny Todd" (aka Z-cars) which is Everton's tune. So I suppose that would be equally unacceptable. :winkeye:
EdgeleyRob
10-09-11, 14:44
Please will someone tell me what is wrong with the LNOTP? We have a world premiere from one of the most eminent living composers, works by Liszt, Wagner, Bartok, Britten and Chopin. A tiny proportion of the concert is taken up with audience participation - i.e. singing and a bit of flag waving.
I will be watching as I always do (but still cringeing at the end).
Serial_Apologist
10-09-11, 15:10
Please will someone tell me what is wrong with the LNOTP? We have a world premiere from one of the most eminent living composers, works by Liszt, Wagner, Bartok, Britten and Chopin. A tiny proportion of the concert is taken up with audience participation - i.e. singing and a bit of flag waving. If and when this happens at other Proms, it's a different matter, and Proms in the Park really is scraping the barrel.
And I would like to see the Sea Songs reinstated (minus klaxons).
But copycat "Last Nights" just show a lack of imagination.
Surely the point is that it is the jingoistic second half, regardless, that leaves the final impression.
barber olly
10-09-11, 15:36
But THE greatest disservice is not in the RAH, but in Hyde Park. :sadface:
Got it in one, and I like the seasongs as well. The Proms in the Park and the BBC's PC approach to involvement of all the costituent parts of the Union has messed up a traditional annual concert in the RAH, which can be enjoyed on TV at home, preferably with a celebration meal with friends. Usually by this date the weather has worsened as regards outdoor events anyway. Those who compare it with the Viennese New Year concert unfavorably should think again. LNOTP has a serious first half and a party in the second half. Bring back the Sea Songs and the traditional ending with the conductor saying goodnight wearing his coat and hat.
MrGongGong
10-09-11, 15:44
That's not my idea of a "party"
maybe a UKIP rally :whistle: (except there are usually more that 3 sad fantasists and a couple of labradors )
I'll probably listen to Max's piece then switch off as I can't stand the rest of it ,its exactly the wrong message to send out to people who might be thinking of going to other concerts........
Panic (both versions !!!) was great IMV more of that
but not the dreadful sea songs :yawn: please no
I do find it funny though , the BBC trying to show how "British" it is when this is such a 1950's style English event
I'm with Serial on this
it's the final impression that sticks , so no matter what else has happened THAT's What people remember and think that Classical music is all about
Serial_Apologist
10-09-11, 16:17
That's not my idea of a "party"
maybe a UKIP rally :whistle: (except there are usually more that 3 sad fantasists and a couple of labradors )
I'll probably listen to Max's piece then switch off as I can't stand the rest of it ,its exactly the wrong message to send out to people who might be thinking of going to other concerts........
Panic (both versions !!!) was great IMV more of that
but not the dreadful sea songs :yawn: please no
I do find it funny though , the BBC trying to show how "British" it is when this is such a 1950's style English event
I'm with Serial on this
it's the final impression that sticks , so no matter what else has happened THAT's What people remember and think that Classical music is all about
:ok: Mr GG
Paul Clarvis ("Panic") does jazz these days. You probably knew that, but just in case I see anything on with him I'll let you know.
Well MrGongGong, all things go in and out of fashion. Perhaps beyond your ken, or desire to admit, there are many people who still do associate themselves with the values expressed in some of the '1950s style English event'. They would also far prefer that than the kind of relevant modern celebration of the world around us (in a very real sense) that it could be you might prefer. I wonder why?!
Eine Alpensinfonie
10-09-11, 16:50
but not the dreadful sea songs :yawn: please no
So enlighten me - objectively please. Why is "Panic" better than the Sea Songs? (apart form the fact that hardly anyone would want to listen to the former).
I've been out walking all afternoon, so quite exhausted and will probably turn on the television for Last Night, having the remote handy to silence it before You'll Never Walk Alone and Climb Every Mountain. I doubt if the sound will come back on but I'm quite interested to see if any of our regulars in the front row will catch the eye of the cameras.
MrGongGong
10-09-11, 18:27
So enlighten me - objectively please. Why is "Panic" better than the Sea Songs? (apart form the fact that hardly anyone would want to listen to the former).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AlH2oYedfk
I rest my case :smiley:
This will annoy some, but doesn't Gardner look splendidly Sargent-like, down to a very fulsome carnation. No detachable stiff collar but apart from that we could be in the 50s...
Eine Alpensinfonie
10-09-11, 19:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AlH2oYedfk
I rest my case :smiley:
MrGongGong. You're very naughty. :laugh:
Is the Rule Britannia in the Sargent arrangement? One assumes so, given Brunnhilde will be singing it.
Where was the serenity in those last wonderful exhalations of the orchestra in the Gotterdammerung? The destiny leitmotif anyone?
BudgieJane
10-09-11, 20:40
I'm quite interested to see if any of our regulars in the front row will catch the eye of the cameras.
Not me, because I'm not there.
Bert Coules
10-09-11, 20:55
How nice to see Lang Lang acknowledging the applause from the people behind the stage. I wish every performer would do that.
We have a world premiere from one of the most eminent living composers
That must be a reference to 'Musica Benevolens' :yikes:, almost enough to put me off music for the rest of my life.
Fortunately redeemed by that sensational performance of the Liszt by Lang Lang. :magic:
french frank
10-09-11, 21:17
As has been pointed out previously on these boards, ticket income only covers about half the costs of the Proms. What the BBC have never revealed is the income they get from selling broadcast rights overseas (particularly for the Last Night), which one would imagine is not an insignificant sum.Don't you have to pay to go to the Proms in the Park(s)? That would make quite a profit on the events themselves - I wonder whether that goes to offset the Official Proms or into some other pot.
It would be interesting to know where the revenue from broadcast rights goes too. After all, most of the so-called 'loss' comes out of Radio 3's budget. It wouldn't be quite the thing if indirect revenue was going to the commercial wing.
Brassbandmaestro
10-09-11, 21:55
This must be the worst LNOP ever!
Bert Coules
10-09-11, 22:04
In those verses, I declare,
I hear the sounds of Rupert Bear.
I have to say that, despite Mr Gardner's tailoring, it has been a dampus squibbus so far
Don't you have to pay to go to the Proms in the Park(s)? That would make quite a profit on the events themselves - I wonder whether that goes to offset the Official Proms or into some other pot.
A tenner for tickets in Dundee, I believe, and it's a sell out.
Bert Coules
10-09-11, 22:41
Two mics and I still can't hear him... Ah, that's better.
And what does he do? Plug the ENO!
Oh my god... The Britten arrangement of the National Anthem... To bed, to bed!
BudgieJane
10-09-11, 22:55
What's wrong with the Britten arrangement?
Each year I hope that this will be the year when "Auld Lang Syne" is sung with the correct words, actions, and pronunciation of "syne".
There's nothing difficult about it.
Oh well. There's always 2012.
Bert Coules
10-09-11, 23:00
I know about the correct words, but what's the correct (and, if it comes to that, the incorrect) pronunciation? Are you saying that it should be "Sign" but we usually hear "Zign"?
Eine Alpensinfonie
10-09-11, 23:06
A tenner for tickets in Dundee, I believe, and it's a sell out.The Dundee concert is in a concert hall, isn't it?
Two real high-points for me: the Wagner and the Britten "God Save", which I haven't heard for years.
As for the two songs from musicals............. so out of place!
I was intrigued by the padding at the beginning of Part 2. Does Katherine Jenkins always sound like that or did my television develop a sound fault? (Good to see Lang Lang seeming a bit more modest than his usual playing to the gallery - though I thought the over-sentimentalisation of the Liszt Consolation wrecked it.)
Ok not actually asleep yet. The Britten engages in faux-fealty, is self-conscious, self-regarding, and showily unshowy... Give me something authentic and I will like it or dislike it according to taste.
Is that it? First time I watch LN and I was expecting High Jinks and Jolly Japes and lots of bobbin' up and dahn and Fun and streamers and it seemed flat as a proverbial. Best point was the pulsating daff on Ms. Bullock's chest and wondering if her helmet would fall off
Anna, couldn't agree with you more. A party in letter but not in spirit, but it is because the hosts don't really want to be holding the party in the first place. The heart is not in it..
Serial_Apologist
10-09-11, 23:21
Ok not actually asleep yet. The Britten engages in faux-fealty, is self-conscious, self-regarding, and showily unshowy... Give me something authentic and I will like it or dislike it according to taste.
Very good description, that.
Barbirollians
10-09-11, 23:40
Susan Bullock shrieked throughout Rule Britannia - a lousy performance and the Prommers looked even more lunatic than ever.
I know about the correct words, but what's the correct (and, if it comes to that, the incorrect) pronunciation? Are you saying that it should be "Sign" but we usually hear "Zign"?
Bert, yes, exactly that. "Syne" means "since". "Auld lang syne" = "Old long ago".
The Dundee concert is in a concert hall, isn't it?
Yes, The Caird Hall in the centre of the city. Dates from c 1921. It is generally regarded as having a very fine acoustic and is frequently used for classical recordings. It has a Harrison and Harrison organ, restored in 1991.
The ideal place for a few prom concerts....... :biggrin:
Bert Coules
11-09-11, 00:06
Bert, yes, exactly that. "Syne" means "since". "Auld lang syne" = "Old long ago".Thanks. So am I right about the words? Is it the inclusion of "...the sake of..." that's incorrect?
Should it be, in effect, "We'll take a cup of kindness yet, for old long ago"? If that's right, then actually the inclusion of "...the sake of..." doesn't actually strike me as particularly harmful: you could argue that it makes the meaning clearer.
Ok not actually asleep yet. The Britten engages in faux-fealty, is self-conscious, self-regarding, and showily unshowy... Give me something authentic and I will like it or dislike it according to taste.
Like a lot of Britten arrangements too clever by 3/4 !
Just back from the hall - A bit of an odd LNOTP - first half never really took off. Bartok - too weird for a last night. Wagner languid and lacking good pace. Susan Bullock sounded fine though (tickets on sale 21/10 for the 2012 Ring @ ROH :erm:) which bodes well.
Liszt - well he played all the right notes in the right order
Second half - ITMA and slightly better piano fare. Weird singing - then YPGTO with new "comedy" lines suitable for a Carry on.. Then a sort of repeat of last year but never reached the same impact. There after more or less normal service was resumed
Don't you have to pay to go to the Proms in the Park(s)? That would make quite a profit on the events themselves - I wonder whether that goes to offset the Official Proms or into some other pot.
It would be interesting to know where the revenue from broadcast rights goes too. After all, most of the so-called 'loss' comes out of Radio 3's budget. It wouldn't be quite the thing if indirect revenue was going to the commercial wing.
As far as I know from someone a few years back the LNTOP gets pooled - via EBU etc -this is offset against purchases - New years concert, Met Opera broadcasts which are pooled via EBU etc
no doubt there are direct sales and CD dvds etc but they probably don't cover the 8mil deficit
LNOTP is one of the greatest disservices done to classical music. Many people - quite reasonably, since they haven't been, and London isn't at the end of every back garden - have the idea that the Proms are nothing but flagwaving for six weeks on end.
So true. A few years ago, I was in the gallery day queue and a couple of people (from South AFrica, I think), turned up with flags. Of course, they weren't allowed to take them in. They must have been very disappointed.
Don't you have to pay to go to the Proms in the Park(s)? That would make quite a profit on the events themselves - I wonder whether that goes to offset the Official Proms or into some other pot.
I thought I saw something about £35 for Hyde Park. Judging by the number of people there seemed to be there tonight, it must be a nice little earner.
Unusually for me, I didn't watch any of the broadcast live on the tellybox as I had other more pressing things to do. .
I've just watched my digibox recording of the first half. Now, maybe I wasn't in the mood, but, hmmm...
First of all, the sound engineering (as rendered through some half decent equipment and at a fairly hefty volume as there's no-one around to be bothered despite the lateness of the hour) seemed to be pretty awful. Even by the "standards" (a new low overall, I'd say) of this season that is. They managed to make the BBCSO sound like a boxy end-of-the-pier scratch orchestra over-dominated by an apparently out-of-tune windband. Now, while (rather understandably) this wasn't the orchestra's finest hour, I bet they didn't sound like that in reality.
To be fair, expecting anything beyond the right notes in the right order was probably a bit daft really. However, having blithely proceeded to expect more regardless, I was roundly disappointed. The Miraculous Mandarin wasn't, and the Immolation Scene was more like Wagner by waning candlelight. Ed Gardner didn't seem to do [I]anything with either of these apart from beat time. Where was the portent, the sombre gravitas, the anything apart from the notes in the Wagner? Again, I suspect the broadcast made it sound far worse than it really was (e.g. Ms Bullock was far too close Mic'd for this).
To repeat, it was probably my fault for expecting more. I can't really imagine what it must be like for even hardened professionals to have to bash out 15 minutes of percussive and dissonant Bartok, then the 15 most grandiloquent and refulgent minutes of Wagner's (or just about anyone's) output and with the prospect of some showtunes and a community singalong to follow after several more hours. Quite testing probably, as evidenced by the results IMO. Maybe I'll feel less curmudgeonly when I get round to watching the rest of it!
I went to bed with a migraine at 8pm so didn't hear any of it.
I go back to the 'original' Henry Wood Sea Songs' and wish they were returned in that form.
I'm afraid the rot set in in the Sargent days regarding changing and dropping them. At a Last Night rehearsal I remember 'Lady Jessie' Sir Henry's widow,wringing her hands and declaiming "Naughty, naughty Malcolm has dropped dear Henry's [one of the songs]" Can't remember the details but she was a fearsome lady and made her feelings quite clear.
Eine Alpensinfonie
11-09-11, 08:39
Yes, The Caird Hall in the centre of the city. Dates from c 1921. It is generally regarded as having a very fine acoustic and is frequently used for classical recordings. It has a Harrison and Harrison organ, restored in 1991.
The ideal place for a few prom concerts....... :biggrin:
That's what I thought. Yet the BBC appears to think that the Caird Hall is a park. :doh:
Talking of the correct words for "Auld Lang Syne", how many people sing the correct words in the chorus of "Rule Britannia"? It should be "Britons never, never, never will be slaves." It is/was correctly printed in the Oxford Song Book.
Mary Chambers
11-09-11, 08:47
I watched it. An odd programme, I thought, that somehow didn't hang together at all. Bartok, bleeding chunk of Wagner, flashy Liszt and a bit of Chopin from my least favourite pianist, Grainger - very strange planning. I don't think the intolerably sentimental Rodgers and Hammerstein songs should be there at all - I simply can't see the reason for them in this context, even when sung by Susan Bullock. I was quite looking forward to Wendy Cope's verses for the Young Person's Guide, but they just didn't work and simply weren't witty enough. If there's going to be a commentary at all (and I'd much rather not, although I know the original film had one) if it can't be witty it should be plain factual.
I love the Britten National Anthem, though. It's quite an achievement to make it sound almost interesting!
The dodgy microphone must have seemed nightmarish to Edward Gardner. I imagine one's first Last Night is a nerve-wracking thing even without technical trouble.
In the end I thought the traditional bits at the end came across best. I always see it as heavily ironic jingoism, and I think the Britannia costume confirmed that! I noticed she walked on very carefully. Wondering whether the helmet would stay on added to the fun, though presumably not to its wearer.
Two real high-points for me: the Wagner and the Britten "God Save", which I haven't heard for years.
As for the two songs from musicals............. so out of place!
I was intrigued by the padding at the beginning of Part 2. Does Katherine Jenkins always sound like that or did my television develop a sound fault? (Good to see Lang Lang seeming a bit more modest than his usual playing to the gallery - though I thought the over-sentimentalisation of the Liszt Consolation wrecked it.)
No, your TV is OK. Katherine Jenkins is very pretty but has a truly awful, tremulous voice with so much vibrato that mirrors might shatter. And Ms Bullock should stick to singing opera as she was totally unsuitable for anything else last night. What a truly awful evening this was. Perhaps our flashy Lang Lang was the only redeeming feature?
Perhaps the LNOP should be consigned to BBC3.
Eine Alpensinfonie
11-09-11, 08:56
Perhaps the LNOP should be consigned to BBC3. I do recall a time when Part 2 was broadcast on the Light Programme (Radio 2 that was). The Proms G & S night was too.
Ventilhorn
11-09-11, 09:05
I watched it. An odd programme, I thought, that somehow didn't hang together at all. Bartok, bleeding chunk of Wagner, flashy Liszt and a bit of Chopin from my least favourite pianist, Grainger - very strange planning. I don't think the intolerably sentimental Rodgers and Hammerstein songs should be there at all - I simply can't see the reason for them in this context, even when sung by Susan Bullock. I was quite looking forward to Wendy Cope's verses for the Young Person's Guide, but they just didn't work and simply weren't witty enough. If there's going to have a commentary at all (and I'd much rather not, although I know the original film had one) if it can't be witty it should be plain factual.
I love the Britten National Anthem, though. It's quite an achievement to make it sound almost interesting!
In the end I thought the traditional bits at the end came across best. I always see it as heavily ironic jingoism, and I think the Britannia costume confirmed that! I noticed she walked on very carefully. Wondering whether the helmet would stay on added to the fun, though presumably not to its wearer.
Totally agree, Mary.
VH
That's what I thought. Yet the BBC appears to think that the Caird Hall is a park. :doh:
Well, that's the London-centric BBC, and their abysmal knowledge of things Scottish for you. To be fair and completely accurate, there is a Caird Park on the north side of the city.
Talking of the correct words for "Auld Lang Syne", how many people sing the correct words in the chorus of "Rule Britannia"? It should be "Britons never, never, never will be slaves." It is/was correctly printed in the Oxford Song Book.
Indeed it should, EA. I think there were a few "rules" sung last night, too. :yikes:
Could any attendees please confirm..... Are the words printed in the programme? Correctly? What about Jerusalem, National Anthem, Auld Lang Syne?
Thanks. So am I right about the words? Is it the inclusion of "...the sake of..." that's incorrect?
Yes
Should it be, in effect, "We'll take a cup of kindness yet, for old long ago"? If that's right, then actually the inclusion of "...the sake of..." doesn't actually strike me as particularly harmful: you could argue that it makes the meaning clearer.
You could. You could argue a lot of things. I would argue that it's wrong, and that the correct words should be sung.
Are the words of Jerusalem, Land of Hope, and the National Anthem changed because "it makes the meaning clearer"?
Does the RSC change Shakespeare's words because "it makes the meaning clearer"?
Bert Coules
11-09-11, 09:40
Does the RSC change Shakespeare's words because "it makes the meaning clearer"?On occasion, but not - I would argue! - as often as they should. Comprehensibility is - I would argue - more important than correctness. Thanks for the reply.
EdgeleyRob
11-09-11, 10:36
What's wrong with the Britten arrangement?
Nothing.To my ears it's the only arrangement that almost makes the National Anthem interesting rather than a dirge.:ok:
french frank
11-09-11, 10:39
no doubt there are direct sales and CD dvds etc but they probably don't cover the 8mil deficitI don't think it's as much as £8m. If I remember the figures for a few years back (David U. will know), the total cost was about £9m. Deficit nearer £3.5m-£4m?
Posted by Alywin:
I thought I saw something about £35 for Hyde Park. Judging by the number of people there seemed to be there tonight, it must be a nice little earner. Crumbs! That's getting up towards top price for a seat in the hall. And all those people! (But expenses higher: probably Katherine Jenkins and Westlife get paid more than the BBCSO)
I tried to combat my deeply ingrained prejudice against the Last Night, and tried to engage with a lot of it.
The opening piece may have been well-intentioned, but it was one of the worst crimes against music I have ever heard - a sub-schools broadcast singalong interspersed with bits of doodling that the composer could have knocked out on medication. And lyrics of embarrassing banality. This is one world premiere that need never be heard again.
Both the Bartok and Wagner were distinctly underwhelming - and I, too, put this down to the dismal sound quality, which has been a depressing feature of this year.
Lang Lang's performance of Liszt was the highlight by a country mile. Firstly, this concerto is a total masterpiece, does everything a concert does, grand, virtuosic and poetic by turns and doesn't outstay its welcome. The soloist is of course the showman par excellence, a Liberace for our age. I found his playing quite spellbinding.
Bowed out of part two when the Britten came on - couldn't take the feeble humour - but came back to watch the singalong, and agree with the poster who said it feels just an empty shell of a thing, an embarrassment, compounded by that dismally unfunny costume, the barking out of Rule Britannia in a way that suggested irony on the part of the performer, if not the audience, and then a very bland speech indeed.
After Lang Lang, I was glad to have tuned in, but by the end it was grim indeed.
french frank
11-09-11, 10:43
I do recall a time when Part 2 was broadcast on the Light Programme (Radio 2 that was). The Proms G & S night was too.I think Proms in the Park is on R2 now.
[By 'now', I mean 'in recent years'.]
I think Proms in the Park is on R2 now.
[By 'now', I mean 'in recent years'.]
Am I right in thinking there were fewer parks this year? Didn't previous locations include Salford and elsewhere? Is this a good sign? Could the BBC's interest in this type of entertainment be waning? (Nothing wrong with it in its place, but nothing to do with the Proms!)
On the subject of the Proms in the Parks, why do they insist on showing pictures of those locations during the traditional Last Night items (Elgar, Jerusalem, Sea Songs, when included.) They are always out of sync and do the audiences at those events no favours at all, by making them look so uncoordinated.
Like most people reading this I imagine, I resisted the frequent invitations to 'press the red button' and see the events for myself.
I pressed the red button out of curiosity and boredom with the main event, in time to see the attractive but musically impoverished Westlife run through songs that were middle-aged when they came out, and now sound like they're being performed on Mogadon. They get the punters in, but what on earth do they have in common with the Proms? Then we switched to the tail-end of Alfie Boe murdering 'First Time Ever I Saw Your Face' in Dundee. :sadface:
Barbirollians
11-09-11, 11:05
I think it must have been the worst LNOTP I have ever seen .
french frank
11-09-11, 11:05
Am I right in thinking there were fewer parks this year? Didn't previous locations include Salford and elsewhere? Is this a good sign? Could the BBC's interest in this type of entertainment be waning? (Nothing wrong with it in its place, but nothing to do with the Proms!)Well, they usually take place in England, Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland. Was there an extra English one in previous years?
Given the 'disappointment (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-12382957)' in Swansea at the PitP moving to Caerphilly, I wonder what the weather was like in Swansea last night? :erm:
That's what I thought. Yet the BBC appears to think that the Caird Hall is a park. :doh:
Talking of the correct words for "Auld Lang Syne", how many people sing the correct words in the chorus of "Rule Britannia"? It should be "Britons never, never, never will be slaves." It is/was correctly printed in the Oxford Song Book.
Please forgive the pedantry, but i think there is only one 'never'.
Bert Coules
11-09-11, 11:31
True enough, as originally writ. But if we're talking "accuracy" surely that should mean singing all the verses? Isn't leaving words out as inauthentic as putting words in?
Stunsworth
11-09-11, 11:40
After reading many of the comments regarding the concerts - not just this one - it seems to me that the BBC should abandon the season altogether. There seems to be such a level of negativity about most of them that as a series they appear to be a waste of artistic time.
On the other hand it could just be that people like to show how more sensitive their sensibilities are compared to the great unwashed by finding fault with everything.
David Underdown
11-09-11, 11:50
The correct words are in the programme (though Auld Lang Syne is never printed). Of course the problem is firstly that an s sung in the wrong place will always be audible, and secondly that most people have never actually seen the words to Auld Lang Syne
barber olly
11-09-11, 11:52
Edward Gardner is obviously a very talented conductor. Last night's concert was a serious concert for the first half and the first part of the second half, even the YPG was treated fairly seriously. Then the Park bit came in and it sunk. There was a very poor last night atmosphere and the R&H participation songs were dreadful. EG seemed out of his comfort zone thereon in and not helped by the mic malfunction (Did Flash Harry need a mic those years ago?). Next year, ditch the parks, bring back the Seasongs and schedule a conductor in tune with the occasion - Andrew Davis used to do a good job! Too many traditions are lost because of apathy or fear that a younger generation might not like it or political correctness.
even the YPG was treated fairly seriously.
not where i was standing - it wasn't :smiley:
we totally lost it at the bit about "trombones" :laugh: Luckily we were standing at the back :whistle:
we totally lost it at the bit about "trombones" :laugh:
Having been out last night, I tried a bit of the concert this morning on iPlayer. It was precisely that moment ("... trombones long and thin, watch their slides go out and in..." :doh:*:yikes::steam:... we lack a "throwing up" smiley). And what was the ghastly simpering, patronising delivery by Agutter about. Truly gut-churning.
* why has the "doh" smiley been disabled?!
Bert Coules
11-09-11, 12:52
Sent to me during the performance by a friend:
If only someone the courage could pluck up
To tell Miss Agutter to shut the -
You can probably fill in the rest. Harsh, I thought. She wasn't to blame for the words she was given...
Sent to me during the performance by a friend:
If only someone the courage could pluck up
To tell Miss Agutter to shut the -
You can probably fill in the rest. Harsh, I thought. She wasn't to blame for the words she was given...
brilliant ! in her defence - in the hall she appeared to be doing the best with the stuff was was given
brilliant ! in her defence - in the hall she appeared to be doing the best with the stuff was was given
I like the "pluck up" couplet. But I thought that Ms Agutter (a beacon of my adolescence :smooch:) was making it worse rather than better... :sadface:
Bert Coules
11-09-11, 13:05
...in the hall she appeared to be doing the best with the stuff was was givenYes, I agree, though she could have been better directed (was she directed at all?). She's a fine performer, given the right material, and still a delight to the eye. The real problem lay with whatever twit thought that the piece needed words in the first place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYNjY9p4c1E
The real problem lay with whatever twit thought that the piece needed words in the first place.
BB and PP I fancy. Two factores are different, though (a) The way you address kids nowadays as opposed to 1950 and (b) it was an audience of [mainly] sophisticated adults. The likes of Ben Elton might have provided a more fitting script?
Stunsworth
11-09-11, 13:29
The real problem lay with whatever twit thought that the piece needed words in the first place.
That twit would be Britten. The piece - which was written for a film documentary - had words by Eric Crozier who also wrote the libretti for several Britten operas...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Young_Person's_Guide_to_the_Orchestra
Bert Coules
11-09-11, 13:40
I didn't put that well: I was referring to the twit who thought that the piece needed words now. As Ardcarp says, that sort of patronising educational approach rings very false these days, and in any case the audience and the occasion weren't right for it anyway. Perhaps a really brilliant narration could just about rescue the concept, but sadly that wasn't what we had last night.
EdgeleyRob
11-09-11, 13:45
we lack a "throwing up" smiley).
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sick006.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php
Mary Chambers
11-09-11, 13:47
BB and PP I fancy. Two factores are different, though (a) The way you address kids nowadays as opposed to 1950 and (b) it was an audience of [mainly] sophisticated adults. The likes of Ben Elton might have provided a more fitting script?
The piece was a commission for a government educational film (see the Youtube clip) and had to have a commentary to explain what was going on to children who knew nothing about an orchestra. There was a parallel film about ballet steps. The brief, to-the-point commentary in the original film seems much better to me than the Cope version, but for an adult audience there is no need for any sort of explanation. The piece stands perfectly well on its own. I notice that in the film the music never stops completely, so the effect is far less bitty than the version we heard last night.
Bert Coules
11-09-11, 13:50
On a more positive note, I did rather enjoy the Immolation scene (perhaps not a great performance, but wonderful dramatic commitment from Miss Bullock) and the Listz.
Eine Alpensinfonie
11-09-11, 13:55
That twit would be Britten. The piece - which was written for a film documentary - had words by Eric Crozier who also wrote the libretti for several Britten operas...
The original film appears rather quaint now, but a newer version with Brian Blessed was issued in the 1980s. BB's OTT approach was quite appealing. I used it in schools and it went down well.
True enough, as originally writ. But if we're talking "accuracy" surely that should mean singing all the verses? Isn't leaving words out as inauthentic as putting words in?
This is interesting. As a general rule I would agree with you, but there are sometimes good reasons for omitting verses. If this original verse of the National Anthem were still to be sung, there would be a riot - and I'd be leading it:
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.
More recently, this verse from a very well known children's hymn was written, and unsurprisingly is no longer sung:
The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
He made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate.
The correct words are in the programme (though Auld Lang Syne is never printed). Of course the problem is firstly that an s sung in the wrong place will always be audible, and secondly that most people have never actually seen the words to Auld Lang Syne
David, thanks for the information.
I suspect the words aren't printed because "everybody knows them". Except they don't.
It was also interesting to see that quite a few of the audience were at a loss when v2 of the National Anthem was sung.
I like the Britten version, and would like to hear it more often.
Bert Coules
11-09-11, 14:18
This is interesting. As a general rule I would agree with you, but there are sometimes good reasons for omitting verses. If this original verse of the National Anthem were still to be sung, there would be a riot
Exactly: some songs are living, evolving things and the notion of authenticity isn't really applicable except in the context of an historical-recreation type of performance. It would actually be more in keeping with the original spirit of the national anthem and other similar pieces (as well as more fun) to write and insert new topical material from time to time.
David Underdown
11-09-11, 14:21
No, the words to Auld Lang Syne aren't printed because it's not strictly part of the programme, but led by prommers, for prommers (and we do generally sing the right words)
No, the words to Auld Lang Syne aren't printed because it's not strictly part of the programme, but led by prommers, for prommers (and we do generally sing the right words)
The prommers certainly didn't sing "the right words" last night - and they haven't for years.
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sick006.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-happy096.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Eine Alpensinfonie
11-09-11, 14:46
I see we have a new (http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?3164-...Last-Nite-Lang) last right thread.
But returning to Auld Lang Syne, I liked it when James Louchran conducted it in quite an exciting orchestration.
Eine Alpensinfonie
11-09-11, 14:49
This is interesting. As a general rule I would agree with you, but there are sometimes good reasons for omitting verses. If this original verse of the National Anthem were still to be sung, there would be a riot - and I'd be leading it:
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.
More recently, this verse from a very well known children's hymn was written, and unsurprisingly is no longer sung:
The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
He made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate.
They still sing "Hills of the North, Rejoice", which is fairly controversial.
But if we're on the subject of hymns, would you really want to sing all 9 verses of "The First Nowell"?
Next year, ditch the parks, bring back the Seasongs (sic) ....I was going to ask what happened to them - the sea songs? When were they last performed? I really think we need them, unless of course we decide to go with Stunsworth's suggestions.
I have always assumed that it was the prommers, or a section of them, who effectively
ruled out the Sea Songs with their silly klaxons etc.
The current choices have curbed those excesses though I was still irritated by childish
balloon things during Pomp and Circumstance.
It's disappointing that the front row diehards havent been able influence matters.
Certainly no half heartedness from Philip Trueman in the singing !
But if we're on the subject of hymns, would you really want to sing all 9 verses of "The First Nowell"?
Noooooo!!!!!! Our church choir gets upset if we have to sing more than four.
The current choices have curbed those excesses though I was still irritated by childish
balloon things during Pomp and Circumstance.
I take it you mean these balloons:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03_01/promsDM0403_468x320.jpg
Eine Alpensinfonie
11-09-11, 16:18
I was going to ask what happened to them - the sea songs? When were they last performed? I really think we need them, unless of course we decide to go with Stunsworth's suggestions.
They were performed last year in the "1910 Last Last Night" concert. Otherwise, I think the last time they were heard at the BBC Proms was 2007. I take the blame for their demise because I had the audacity to challenge the Chilcott insertions in 2006. Seriously though, I don't know why they were dropped.
I don't mind the Sea Songs as long as they miss out the Hornpipe, which encourages the balloon-popping and klaxons, and Home Sweet Home because people try unsuccessfully to hum along. Also I've never understood why See the Conquering Hero from Judas Maccabaeus is a Sea Song. :erm:
Ferretfancy
11-09-11, 16:33
Just a small piece of information, really. A high proportion of regular Prommers, including quite a number of season ticket holders, don't go to the Last Night. What seems to happen is that people who never attend during the rest of the season manage to beg borrow or steal tickets. This is usually done by acquiring ticket stubs from people who have queued on the day through the preceding weeks in order to qualify for the Last Night.
I did go a couple of years ago, and found myself in a cheery group who told me that they had never been before, to be fair they did enjoy the real music part of the evening and were good company..
The oafs with air horns etc. are never seen at any other time.
The Proms in general have improved tremendously since the palmy days of Sargent and Cameron, when we heard numerous routine performances of standard works, and a few memorable ones. Travel back in a time machine would come as something of a shock where performance standards are concerned.
BudgieJane
11-09-11, 17:17
Also I've never understood why See the Conquering Hero from Judas Maccabaeus is a Sea Song. :erm:
It isn't. It's a See Song :yikes:
Just a small piece of information, really. A high proportion of regular Prommers, including quite a number of season ticket holders, don't go to the Last Night. What seems to happen is that people who never attend during the rest of the season manage to beg borrow or steal tickets. This is usually done by acquiring ticket stubs from people who have queued on the day through the preceding weeks in order to qualify for the Last Night.
.
There did seem to be a higher number - of "ticketed" arena people this year - and the arena did seem fuller than last year or 2005. (2011, 2011 and 2005 being my only experience since 1988) Also it was my impression less boxes were decorated - this year. I think people have cottoned on that you can get a ticket to the arena on the last night.
Eine Alpensinfonie
11-09-11, 19:14
Also I've never understood why See the Conquering Hero from Judas Maccabaeus is a Sea Song. :erm: Neither is Home, Sweet Home, for that matter.
Returning to the concert, I thought Lang Lang showed great stamina and poise, having just been rushed from the Hyde Park dross concert, where he had given rather a good performance of La Campanella (Liszt).
I hope this is not just nostalgia syndrome, but was it not all very flat? The last conductor who carried it off really well was Andrew Davis, no question. Is it my imagination, too, or did John Pritchard tell us that he wouldn't be back next year as he was dying...? (shades of Sargent, if so...)
http://www.theartsdesk.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=4521:bbc-proms-last-night-of-the-proms-bullock-lang-lang-bbcso-gardner&Itemid=27
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-score010.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Political correctness is not new. I went to a Proms rehearsal with Basil Cameron conducting in about 1948.
When the orchestra got to Home Sweet Home [which I have been told many times is called something else?] there was an earnest discussion with the cellist playing the solo as there was a fear that the Prommers would throw pennies. I'm afraid that we listeners in G block thought it hilarious, I think it went ahead that year but was later dropped. IMHO BC was a very underrated conductor, his Sibelius was very good indeed.
I hope this is not just nostalgia syndrome, but was it not all very flat? The last conductor who carried it off really well was Andrew Davis, no question. Is it my imagination, too, or did John Pritchard tell us that he wouldn't be back next year as he was dying...? (shades of Sargent, if so...)
Except that MS said he would be back next year, knowing that he wouldn't.
Eine Alpensinfonie
11-09-11, 20:02
I hope this is not just nostalgia syndrome, but was it not all very flat? The last conductor who carried it off really well was Andrew Davis, no question. Is it my imagination, too, or did John Pritchard tell us that he wouldn't be back next year as he was dying...? (shades of Sargent, if so...) Sargent said he would be back in the following year.
There did seem to be a higher number - of "ticketed" arena people this year - and the arena did seem fuller than last year or 2005. (2011, 2011 and 2005 being my only experience since 1988) Also it was my impression less boxes were decorated - this year. I think people have cottoned on that you can get a ticket to the arena on the last night.
I'm not surprised that the Arena was full. The Arena 'hopefuls' queue (i.e. those without tickets queuing to get in when the 20-minute rule kicked in) was very long very early. There are always a few diehards who sleep out, but the queue was, I'm told, up to Albert Court by 7 a.m., was close to the bottom of the steps by 8 a.m., and later crossed the road and reached as far as the steps of the Royal School of Mines. Does anyone know if they all got in? BTW, I thought the Hall coped very well - Front of House were out as early as 8:10 to offer use of the washrooms to the queue.
As for Ferretfancy's "The oafs with air horns etc. are never seen at any other time.", this is not strictly true. I was at a Blue Peter Prom in about 1998 where two such oafs came into the Arena during the performance and, er, performed. When challenged why, the answer came back "Because my producer told me to.". They turned out to be Blue Peter presenters. I understand that one of the two later left that programme under something of a cloud.
Ruth Elleson
11-09-11, 20:27
The prommers certainly didn't sing "the right words" last night - and they haven't for years.
I did, and I always do - as does David, though unfortunately he wasn't there last night. If his use of the word "we" is intended in a small-scale context, he is quite right.
What we do all seem to do "wrong" - unless I am mistaken about the traditions associated with the song - is join hands at the start. But then, we never get as far as "And there’s a hand, my trusty fiere/friend, And gi's a hand o'thine"...
Roslynmuse
11-09-11, 21:04
As an innocent early teen in the late 70s I loved the LNOTP (on TV); I can't quite remember when I then started to feel uncomfortable about it, but someb ten years ago I had the misfortune to be at an open-air fireworks/ 1812/ Last Night items type extravaganza and the horror of what it can stand for to many people really hit home - the shaved heads and tattoos as well as the Union flag-waving and hats, balloons, car-horns etc.
I wonder how far the recorded Last Night archives go back - televison and radio - and whether anyone has ever made a serious study of the changes in behaviour over that period. I don't trust my own perception of a shift from innocence to otherwise in the LNOTP itself over the last 35 years; that shift has been in myself. It would however be fascinating (if mind-numbing) to sample a sequence of Last Nights over the last 75 years...
I did, and I always do - as does David, though unfortunately he wasn't there last night. If his use of the word "we" is intended in a small-scale context, he is quite right.
What we do all seem to do "wrong" - unless I am mistaken about the traditions associated with the song - is join hands at the start. But then, we never get as far as "And there’s a hand, my trusty fiere/friend, And gi's a hand o'thine"...
Ruth, I am delighted to read this. I shall listen out for you next year. Seriously, I am sure there will be others like you and David, but you'll be drowned out by the many. A vulgar expression involving "thunder" springs to mind.
You're right too about holding hands. The clue is in the words, which make it quite plain what should happen, and when.
David Underdown
11-09-11, 22:05
I did indeed mean on a small-scale. I must confess I didn't know the correct words until I started promming
We could also do with sorting out a sensible key. There must now be enough of us with smartphones with pitch generator apps to decide on a sensible note beforehand. Still, at least it didn't seem to be in organum this year!
Stunsworth
11-09-11, 23:42
Regardless of whether the last night is a good or a bad thing (personally I think it needs a mini season of 1 concert), is this the start of the rehabilitation of Lang Lang? I though he was superb in the hall. Feel free to shoot me down in flames!
Regardless of whether the last night is a good or a bad thing (personally I think it needs a mini season of 1 concert), is this the start of the rehabilitation of Lang Lang? I though he was superb in the hall. Feel free to shoot me down in flames!
He did the Chopin no2 in 2009 - with the Dresden. I was completely oblivious to this until I got to the hall having only come for the Alpine Symphony. He was perfectly ok in that - rather good as I remember.
People do still refer to the 2008 solo concert - the number of people who told me they walked out means there must have very few in the hall at the end !
ucanseetheend
12-09-11, 06:42
what about Gardner's speech. I never heard it anything special?
Eine Alpensinfonie
12-09-11, 06:59
He did the Chopin no2 in 2009 - with the Dresden. I was completely oblivious to this until I got to the hall having only come for the Alpine Symphony. He was perfectly ok in that - rather good as I remember. He was good in the Chopin (2009). Mind you, after that Rebecca Sauders piece... :winkeye:
Ferretfancy
12-09-11, 09:38
I'm another who went to the concert for the Alpine Symphony and had no time for Lang Lang, in any case feeling that the Chopin concertos are rather dull. However I found myself in the company of some new Prommers, a Korean family who had come to hear him, so I was very tactful. We had a good chat in the interval. They loved Lang Lang, but perhaps more importantly they stayed for the Alpine Symphony and were bowled over by the occasion, vowing to come back for more. The Lang Langs of this world do attract new listeners, and that must be good.
I'd rather forget the scrapyard offerings of Rebecca Saunders !
Eine Alpensinfonie
12-09-11, 10:04
I recall the vitriol poured upon Lang Lang at the time on the BBC board. Much of the kicking was about this facial expressions when playing. I can't think of anything less important.
Brassbandmaestro
12-09-11, 10:09
Yes, FF, that Alpine was something to die for!! Ok I do have my concerns with Lang Langnites, but, like you saaaid, as that Korean family stayed on to hear that Strauss work, more the better for their contined journey with classical music!
Bert Coules
12-09-11, 10:13
I recall the vitriol poured upon Lang Lang at the time on the BBC board. Much of the kicking was about this facial expressions when playing.Good grief, what do such people make of Julian Bream?
Bert Coules
12-09-11, 10:24
I wonder how far the recorded Last Night archives go back - televison and radio - and whether anyone has ever made a serious study of the changes in behaviour over that period.
Excerpts from the second half of the 1969 Last Night were released on LP (Philips SFM 23033): the sleeve notes talk about:
...the cheering mass of mostly young and loudly vocal listeners... the affectionate chaffing of conductor, performer and officials, the stamping, cheering chorus singing and clapping - all this is now the tradition of the closing concert...
It's a long time since I played the LP but I recall a very well-behaved audience, not applauding (for example) until after the last note of the Pomp and Circumstance, and contributing to the Sea Songs in a far more disciplined (and musical) manner than we get today. How much this is due to the times and how much to the controlling hand of Colin Davis, I don't know (though I do recall Davis holding rehearsals for the audience on (and before) at least one Last Night).
Perhaps I'll play the record today...
Brassbandmaestro
12-09-11, 10:48
Tell me?
Why is is that at the Proms, its, possibly the only place where the audience claps in between movements? it was quite intolerbale, eg in The Planets Prom
He did the Chopin no2 in 2009 - with the Dresden. I was completely oblivious to this until I got to the hall having only come for the Alpine Symphony. He was perfectly ok in that - rather good as I remember.
He was good in the Chopin (2009). Mind you, after that Rebecca Sauders piece... :winkeye:
I would have been surprised and disappointed if you hadn't quoted my original posting ! :laugh:
Morning Bert Coules. I have a CD from a Sargent Last Night in 1961. It looks much the same as usual but listed on the CD are Announcements, Request for Quiet from MS, Henry Wood Sea Songs [6 of them], etc.
I remember the main problem in those days was prommers blowing trumpets of some sort or another. Klaxons I suppose they were called. Also football rattles were often a nuisance. It did have Gina Bachhauer playing the Grieg concerto and Constance Shacklock for Rule Britannia though. It was always fairly noisy even then.
however, I don't think they clapped before the end of a work.
Bert Coules
12-09-11, 11:29
Salymap, that's interesting, thanks. I'm pretty sure that I also recall an interview with Henry Wood, no less, where he talks about the Sea Songs' Hornpipe always turning into an out-of-sync race between the orchestra and the Prommers, each determined to get to the end first. But, as I said, I distinctly remember the recorded evidence showing the 1969 audience as being particularly well-behaved. I'll report back after I've played the LP.
BudgieJane
12-09-11, 11:48
Why is is that at the Proms, its, possibly the only place where the audience claps in between movements? it was quite intolerbale, eg in The Planets Prom
Ignorance.
If you look around when this inter-movement applause happens, you see it is only some people in the seats and some of the day-trippers in the Arena. Those who know about these things usually do not applaud between movements.
Chris Newman
12-09-11, 11:51
Tell me?
Why is is that at the Proms, its, possibly the only place where the audience claps in between movements? it was quite intolerbale, eg in The Planets Prom
In my experience it happens everywhere: The Barbican, Salisbury Cathedral, Salle Wagram. I have given up worrying about it. In his letters that little scamp Wolfgang, Amadeus Mozart, seems quite put out when it does not happen.
Brassbandmaestro
12-09-11, 12:03
Well, coming from Mozart, i am not surprised, the little scamp that he was!!
You're right too about holding hands. The clue is in the words, which make it quite plain what should happen, and when.
I completely agree. Exactly that point was well made by James Loughran in his Last Night speech in, oh, 1975 or so. If you remember, Her Majesty (a well-brought-up lady with Scottish ancestry if ever there were one) was mortified at Tony Blair getting this wrong at the Millennium celebrations. But it's hopeless to imagine we could ever persuade 5,000 or so people to do it right at the Last Night.
If you remember, Her Majesty (a well-brought-up lady with Scottish ancestry if ever there were one) was mortified at Tony Blair getting this wrong at the Millennium celebrations. But it's hopeless to imagine we could ever persuade 5,000 or so people to do it right at the Last Night.
Yes, I thought about that occasion when I wrote the post you quoted from. I remember feeling quite sorry for HM, next to the clown Blair.
Bert Coules
12-09-11, 15:49
I've now listened to the 1969 Last Night LP, and my memory wasn't far out: the overall impression is of considerably more controlled, more musical, audience participation than in later years. True, the trumpet call at the beginning of the Sea Songs is greeted with applause (and the BBC announcer continues to talk over both clapping and music) and the Hornpipe is accompanied by stamping and clapping, but the first (rather muted) outbreak quickly dies away, presumably at a gesture from Colin Davis. Later it's obvious that he brings in the audience, who respond with a cheer and hugely enthusiastic feet and hands. Then, in authentic Henry Wood fashion, it turns into a race: Davis and the BBC SO win by a very short beat, whereupon he launches into a really breakneck encore. The other sections are received with less noise but no less exuberance: there's humming along with There's No Place Like Home, singing elsewhere.
The fanfare that introduces Rule, Britannia is greeted with a vast (and slightly belated) cheer and followed by a massed singalong (of the chorus only, with three Nevers and shall be slaves). There had been something of a controversy about the "dropping" of the song - according to the BBC announcer, Davis gets a section of the Prommers to hold up their "Bring Back Britannia!" banner - but it was only as a separate piece complete with soloist that it was missing.
One striking thing about the Sea Songs is that there's a lot of very good-natured laughter at various points, presumably as a reaction to whatever Davis was up to. Elsewhere, the music is listened to in silence and applause held until after, or just on, the final chord of each piece. There are no air-horns, no rattles that I can hear, no exploding balloons. One person has a whistle, and blows a single short blast between two items and again during a pause in Davis's speech. But as far as noise intrusion goes, that's it.
The whole thing feels at once more relaxed and more disciplined than of late. And considerably more fun.
I remember feeling quite sorry for HM, next to the clown Blair.
... and yet, he - a Fettes boy - might have been expected to know better!
Roslynmuse
12-09-11, 16:06
I've now listened to the 1969 Last Night LP, and my memory wasn't far out: the overall impression is of considerably more controlled, more musical, audience participation than in later years.
...
The whole thing feels at once more relaxed and more disciplined than of late. And considerably more fun.
Thanks for the report! - a very nice evocation. Is that the LP with a sort of mauve-shaded cover?
I was listening to a CD of a couple of combined Viennese nights a while back (early 70s) and relaxed fun is a good description of those too. Perhaps we've lost the art...
Bert Coules
12-09-11, 16:16
Thanks for the report! - a very nice evocation.Thanks.
Is that the LP with a sort of mauve-shaded cover?This is the one:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/BertCoules/1914298-sir-colin-davis-the-last-night-of-the-proms.jpg
I seem to recall another rather similar Last Night LP, also under Davis - perhaps the following year? But I don't own that one.
Eine Alpensinfonie
12-09-11, 16:19
Then, in authentic Henry Wood fashion, it turns into a race: Davis and the BBC SO win by a very short beat... Of course they won, because Sir Henry's orchestration deliberately omitted a beat near the end in order to fool the audience. Even when you know about this, it's easy to be wrong-footed.
Bert Coules
12-09-11, 16:26
Yes, and I recall a later newly-commissioned Last Night piece which included the Hornpipe and did even more fiendish audience-throwing things with the rhythms. I can't remember the composer, though.
Here's the later LP:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/BertCoules/Davis.jpg
It's the 1972 Last Night. Ah, nostalgia: I can see a goodly number of my Prom-going friends in that photo, including a soon-to-be prominent BBC producer, and my wife-to-be...
Eine Alpensinfonie
12-09-11, 16:38
Yes, and I recall a later newly-commissioned Last Night piece which included the Hornpipe and did even more fiendish audience-throwing things with the rhythms. I can't remember the composer, though.
Does this (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2281.2008.00466.x/full) help? I quote the relevant bit:-
"In the following year, Glock and Davis made their first effort at reform, by deleting ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ from the ‘Last Night’ programme; but so great was the press and public outcry that in the end it had to be re-instated. In 1970, the controller and conductor attempted an alternative modification: Malcolm Arnold was commissioned to write a modern equivalent of Wood's ‘Sea Songs’, which included audience participation and the traditional hornpipe, but in 5/8 time, demanding an exceptional rhythmic facility in the stamping from the audience; but, perhaps for this reason, it did not catch on. Twelve months later, there was another new commission in the form of Malcolm Williamson's ‘instant opera’ entitled ‘The Stone Wall’; but it, too, was not a success. And in 1972 there was yet a third attempt to produce a modern substitute for the ‘Sea Songs’ in the form of a work entitled ‘Celebration’, by Gordon Crosse; yet this, also, failed to resonate with the audience in the Albert Hall or with the public beyond."
Bert Coules
12-09-11, 16:42
Yes, it certainly does help, thanks. It was the Arnold that I was remembering, clearly. And I was there in 1971 - very nearly at the Arena rail, in fact - for Williamson's The Stone Wall. "Northern Savages! Southern Savages!"...
LATER...
I've just read the whole of that piece. Fascinating stuff.
... and yet, he - a Fettes boy - might have been expected to know better!
Indeed. We were rather better taught than that.
Chris Newman
12-09-11, 21:07
Oh dear I can see myself with hair on the 1969 cover. My sister thought I had lost my teeth.
I am hidden behind Colin's left elbow on the 1972 cover but can see lots of old friends from the BBC Staff Operatic Society (Ariel Opera).
The Stonewall was conducted by Colin Davis with help from the composer Malcolm Williamson and Richard (Dicky) Baker the newsreader and presenter of the Proms.
Oh dear I can see myself with hair on the 1969 cover. My sister thought I had lost my teeth.
I am hidden behind Colin's left elbow on the 1972 cover but can see lots of old friends from the BBC Staff Operatic Society (Ariel Opera).
The Stonewall was conducted by Colin Davis with help from the composer Malcolm Williamson and Richard (Dicky) Baker the newsreader and presenter of the Proms.
What nostalgia! I remember watching that on TV and I had that 1969 LP for Christmas, probably that year, and promptly wore it out! It still sits on my shelves now. Little did I know then that the Albert Hall would become my summer spiritual home in less than 10 years.
Alf-Prufrock
12-09-11, 23:01
Twelve months later, there was another new commission in the form of Malcolm Williamson's ‘instant opera’ entitled ‘The Stone Wall’; but it, too, was not a success.
As I recall it, and I was there too (sitting down rather than standing, I'm ashamed to say), The Stone Wall was a great success. I remember building up the imaginary wall by piling on 'stone on stone' with great enthusiasm along with everybody else. And the piece had a good tune too. Not something one can say about every Prom commission.
Eine Alpensinfonie
13-09-11, 07:13
(sitting down rather than standing, I'm ashamed to say)I always sit down at concerts, and I'm not ashamed. :smiley:
BudgieJane
13-09-11, 11:08
Why did the BBC move the placing of the chaplet round Sir Henry Wood's bust from the end of the interval/start of the second half, to somewhere in the middle of the first half?
now that they're called the BBC Proms, shouldn't a foliate accessory adorn a bust of Lord Reith, or Mr Wright? (no harm in asking)
(when is a chaplet not a chaplet?)
David Underdown
13-09-11, 11:42
They are still, in full," The [nth] Season of the Sir Henry Wood Promenade Concerts, presented by the BBC" as you will find written inside the programme for every prom
Barbirollians
13-09-11, 14:40
I don't mind the Sea Songs as long as they miss out the Hornpipe, which encourages the balloon-popping and klaxons, and Home Sweet Home because people try unsuccessfully to hum along. Also I've never understood why See the Conquering Hero from Judas Maccabaeus is a Sea Song.
:erm:
Without the sea songs however we get all that silliness in other pieces like in Pomp and C No 1 instead !
Home Sweet Home was reckoned too dangerous years ago as the unruly Prommers might throw pennies annd injure the cellist playing the solo bit. I heard Basil Cameron, the conductor that year, explain it to the orchestra. I don't know what triggered the panic about it, WHO threw that penny?
makropulos
13-09-11, 17:02
Does this (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2281.2008.00466.x/full) help? I quote the relevant bit:-
"In the following year, Glock and Davis made their first effort at reform, by deleting ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ from the ‘Last Night’ programme; but so great was the press and public outcry that in the end it had to be re-instated. In 1970, the controller and conductor attempted an alternative modification: Malcolm Arnold was commissioned to write a modern equivalent of Wood's ‘Sea Songs’, which included audience participation and the traditional hornpipe, but in 5/8 time, demanding an exceptional rhythmic facility in the stamping from the audience; but, perhaps for this reason, it did not catch on. Twelve months later, there was another new commission in the form of Malcolm Williamson's ‘instant opera’ entitled ‘The Stone Wall’; but it, too, was not a success. And in 1972 there was yet a third attempt to produce a modern substitute for the ‘Sea Songs’ in the form of a work entitled ‘Celebration’, by Gordon Crosse; yet this, also, failed to resonate with the audience in the Albert Hall or with the public beyond."
Where does that quote come from? "The Stone Wall" was far from being "not a success". It was a considerable success! And the big tune in the middle is delightful, as has already been said. Like all of Williamson's cassations, "The Stone Wall" also had quite a bit of success in schools (when I worked as a music teacher I did several of them - anyone else remember "Knights in Shining Armour" and "The Moonrakers"? - and the children loved singing them).
Bert Coules
13-09-11, 17:05
Home Sweet Home was reckoned too dangerous years ago as the unruly Prommers might throw pennies...That's very odd. In the theatre, the throwing of pennies (once a sign of approval) eventually came to signify extreme displeasure, but the concert hall has always been rather more refined, surely? It's hard to imagine even the most out of control Prom audience pelting the performers with small change, whatever it was meant to signify.
And why was it seen as a potential danger during Home Sweet Home and not any other piece?
Bert, do you think it was the kind of piece that street musicians played, cap for donations by their feet.?
London used to have many of these people, as you will know.
Eine Alpensinfonie
13-09-11, 17:12
Where does that quote come from?You can access the full text by clicking the word "this" in red in the posting.
Bert Coules
13-09-11, 17:16
Bert, do you think it was the kind of piece that street musicians played, cap for donations by their feet?Quite possibly, but it seems quite a leap to go from that association to doing the same thing at a formal concert performance of the piece, doesn't it? The Wikipedia entry on the song says that it's frequently associated with closing time at drinking establishments, which is something I hadn't come across before, but even that presumably unwelcome link strikes me as a rather far-fetched excuse for hurling coinage at a symphony orchestra.
makropulos
13-09-11, 17:23
You can access the full text by clicking the word "this" in red in the posting.
Thanks, EA!
Looks like an interesting read, even if I don't agree with him about the Williamson.
Mary Chambers
13-09-11, 17:25
I thought the money-throwing tradition was connected with 'Spanish Ladies' (Farewell and Adieu) rather than 'Home Sweet Home'.
Bert Coules
13-09-11, 17:28
Another complication! But - again - why do that during that particular piece?
Mary Chambers
13-09-11, 17:43
Another complication! But - again - why do that during that particular piece?
I vaguely thought it might be something to do with paying for past pleasures! Come to think of it, that would be a bit improper for audiences in the past. I tried to find some explanation online, but can find nothing at all about any coin-throwing traditions at the Proms.
I think from the laughter frommthe BBCSO and people at rehearsal it was a surprise to all of us. Mr.Cameron was a good conductor but seemed a bit of a fuss-pot. Don't know the origin but it was H.S.H.
Chris Newman
13-09-11, 18:03
Strange. Home sweet Home was good enough for Donizetti to use in the Mad Scene of his opera Anna Bolena. I do not remember people throwing pennies to Joan Sutherland?
She would have thrown them back Chris :laugh:
On those occasions when I've been in the Arena at the Last Night and we've had Home Sweet Home (I'd have to check the programmes, but the count may well be in double figures) the front row have swayed, and hummed the tune. Perhaps the traditions at other venues are different, but throwing pennies in the RAH? Never.
Colonel Danby
14-09-11, 21:34
I hardly think that Bartok's Suite from 'The Miraculous Mandarin' or indeed the Immolation Scene from 'Götterdämmerung' was dumming down on the LNOTP: and I enjoyed both works enormously in the hall. But then I loved both Parry and Elgar in all their pomp and circumstance, so I suppose there is no hope for me. For goodness sakes, this was the last concert in a very long (and marvellous) season: what is wrong if the prommers are allowed to let their collective hair down?
antongould
14-09-11, 21:41
She would have thrown them back Chris :laugh:
Dear Lady
You so regularly make my night!!!
Serial_Apologist
14-09-11, 21:46
Dear Lady
You so regularly make my night!!!
Pennies from heaven
Er... sorry!
talking of audience participation, does anyone remember (with joy, or otherwise) that Bobby McFerrin prom from 2005 where he got the audience to sing the Gounod part of the Gounod/Bach Ave Maria (while he did the Bach part)?
Ruth Elleson
15-09-11, 09:28
talking of audience participation, does anyone remember (with joy, or otherwise) that Bobby McFerrin prom from 2005 where he got the audience to sing the Gounod part of the Gounod/Bach Ave Maria (while he did the Bach part)?
AND got the Vienna Phil to SING the Galop from the William Tell Overture as an encore...
I remember that Bobby McFerrin (but had forgotten about it until you said) I've got it recorded on the computer!
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