View Full Version : Choral Evening Prayer Westminster Cathedral November, 2nd 2011
Westminster Cathedral
Solemn Requiem Mass for the Faithful Departed
Order of Service:
Introit: Requiem æternam (Victoria)
First Lesson: Isaiah 25: 6-9
Gradual: Requiem æternam (Victoria)
Second Lesson: Matthew 11:25-30
Homily: Fr Alexander Master
Offertory: Domine Iesu Christe (Victoria)
Sanctus (Victoria)
Agnus Dei (Victoria)
Communion: Lux aeterna (Victoria)
Martin Baker (Master of Music)
One of two Catholic services being broadcast this month. Both should be good.
Well, the music's good enough! Hope the choir is up to it.
Well, the music's good enough! Hope the choir is up to it.
Of course they will be.
Chris Newman
30-10-11, 00:17
Well, the music's good enough! Hope the choir is up to it.
Negative AS EVER, simon.
french frank
30-10-11, 00:28
What a peculiar comment, Simon.
Satisfying to hear a Mass such as the Victoria sung in a liturgical context, especially a Requiem on All Souls' Day. Is it obvious to those who know about these things which Mass it is?
What a peculiar comment, Simon.
Satisfying to hear a Mass such as the Victoria sung in a liturgical context, especially a Requiem on All Souls' Day. Is it obvious to those who know about these things which Mass it is?
Simon often makes peculiar comments.
french frank
30-10-11, 00:50
Be that as ...
Wikipedia gives details of a 6-part Officium Defunctorum of 1605 and an earlier 4-part Missa pro Defunctis.
What a peculiar comment, Simon.
Satisfying to hear a Mass such as the Victoria sung in a liturgical context, especially a Requiem on All Souls' Day. Is it obvious to those who know about these things which Mass it is?
I think it will probably be the six-part.
french frank
30-10-11, 11:10
I think it will probably be the six-part.They recorded it back in 1987 but that seems too long (57'23"?), given that there's a homily and lessons to fit in as well.
[B]Edited post Draco's: As you were - Hyperion disc has additional sections which aren't being sung, so Tim is probably right:
1. Matins Of The Dead: Responsory
2. The Second Lesson: Job 10: 1-2
3. The Office Of Lauds - The Canticle Of Zachary: Antiphon
4. Mass For The Dead: Introit
5. Mass For The Dead: Kyrie
6. Mass For The Dead: Gradual
7. Mass For The Dead: Offertory
8. Mass For The Dead: Sanctus
9. Mass For The Dead: Agnus Dei
10. Mass For The Dead: Communion
11. Funeral Motet
12. The Absolution: Responsory.
If it is the 1605 six-part, according to the Order of Service given by the BBC, they are not singing the Kyrie, Offertory, Motectum -Versa Est in Luctum, nor the final responsory Libera me. All of which shaves off a fair amount of the running time.
french frank
30-10-11, 11:40
If it is the 1605 six-part, according to the Order of Service given by the BBC, they are not singing the Kyrie, Offertory, Motectum -Versa Est in Luctum, nor the final responsory Libera me. All of which shaves off a fair amount of the running time.Yes, I was just editing as you posted. Well, the 6-part is the 'great' one.
Have emailed the Drome for clarification.
Edit from ff: Sorry - the last upgrade overwrote my recoding to stop threads being closed inadvertently. Now open again.
Magnificat
30-10-11, 17:07
Well, the music's good enough! Hope the choir is up to it.
I am sure the choir will sing this service well enough but, although I don't personally object to the broadcast of a requiem Mass on All Souls' Day, this program is supposed to be Choral Evensong and as I said last year when New College did a similar broadcast I really don't see why listeners who want and are expecting to hear CE should have to listen to a requiem Mass.
It must be possible to put together a suitable Evensong for the occasion. One saving grace, though, is that we will be spared the awful liturgy for Choral Vespers which we usually get from Westminster Cathedral.
VCC
So glad you're looking forward to it with such enthusiasm, VCC.
I suppose they are only just regularly in the top three choirs in UK at the moment, but we'll let that pass.
And I THINK it's the Victoria anniversary year, so maybe it's appropriate for them to be singing it.
They are one of the only RC choirs regularly on the CE slot.
This is material that they will sing liturgically - unlike a number of the pick-up choirs who get on CE.
And it is not a mixed choir, or a girl-led choir, but men and boys.
A series of sections from a Mass for the Dead would seem to be pretty appropriate, given the proximate feast day.
But I do admit, it is not Choral Evensong as we know it.
french frank
30-10-11, 17:45
For the many R3 listeners who usually only listen to these great Masses on CD, it's a rare opportunity to hear a liturgical performance. I've only ever heard one - Haydn's Heiligmesse in the Hofburgkapelle on Easter Day, 1980, standing with a tourist rucksack crushed into my face. That sort of immediacy is a mixed experience. Radio 3's broadcast will be rather less distracting, I hope.
They are one of the only RC choirs regularly on the CE slot.
Does Liverpool Metropolitan count? Their Vespers broadcasts are more Anglican friendly (for those who need it) as they use psalm chants and other familiar bits. Personally I like some variety...and maybe I've got Popish leanings; of the strictly agnostic sort, obviously.
orbis factor
30-10-11, 19:15
I am sure the choir will sing this service well enough but, although I don't personally object to the broadcast of a requiem Mass on All Souls' Day, this program is supposed to be Choral Evensong and as I said last year when New College did a similar broadcast I really don't see why listeners who want and are expecting to hear CE should have to listen to a requiem Mass.
It must be possible to put together a suitable Evensong for the occasion. One saving grace, though, is that we will be spared the awful liturgy for Choral Vespers which we usually get from Westminster Cathedral.
VCC
Why awful?
Simon Biazeck
30-10-11, 19:42
What a splendid occasion this will be - an opportunity to hear one of the world's greatest church choirs singing a masterwork, as they would on this day, in their place of worship! And what of those poor, hapless souls who tune in expecting to hear Choral Evensong? (Which I too, adore!) Well, if they should fall down dead of shock, then what more glorious harmony could they wish for but Victoria's 6-voice Requiem to see them into eternity? Still, I'm sure they will be fine, with one exception, as we have heard. I credit the majority of Radio 3 listeners with rather more open mindedness and tolerance.
french frank
30-10-11, 20:03
Well, if they should fall down dead of shock, then what more glorious harmony could they wish for but Victoria's 6-voice Requiem to see them into eternity? Still, I'm sure they will be fine, with one exception, as we have heard. I credit the majority of Radio 3 listeners with rather more open mindedness and tolerance.In any case, for every CE devotee who's missing the familiar recipe there will probably be one new listener (e.g. me) who is tuning in specially.
Simon Biazeck
30-10-11, 20:16
for every CE devotee who's missing the familiar recipe there will probably be one new listener (e.g. me) who is tuning in specially.
Pleased to hear it - my point exactly!:peacedove:
I am sure the choir will sing this service well enough but, although I don't personally object to the broadcast of a requiem Mass on All Souls' Day, this program is supposed to be Choral Evensong and as I said last year when New College did a similar broadcast I really don't see why listeners who want and are expecting to hear CE should have to listen to a requiem Mass.
It must be possible to put together a suitable Evensong for the occasion. One saving grace, though, is that we will be spared the awful liturgy for Choral Vespers which we usually get from Westminster Cathedral.
What an odd sense of priorities. Precisely how many listeners does Magnificat believe will tune in to the broadcast on 2 November wanting and expecting to hear Choral Evensong? Indeed, how many people will visit his beloved St Alban's Abbey on the same day wanting and expecting to hear Evensong? If they do so, they will be in for a disappointment...
AscribeUntoTheLad
30-10-11, 21:14
I really don't see why listeners who want and are expecting to hear CE should have to listen to a requiem Mass.
VCC
Surely most cathedral choirs will be doing a Requiem Eucharist on Wednesday? All the ones I've looked at are (admittedly, I've only seen three music lists).
Well, for those who love the Requiem a 6 by Victoria, St Thomas Fifth Avenue - the leading Episcopalian / Anglican choral foundation in New York City and unarguably one of the great men and boy choirs in the Anglican communion - will be singing it live via webcast at 10.30 p.m. our time on Wednesday 2nd Nov via the church's own website.
And if you're interested, they will be singing a Victoria Mass and Byrd 'Justorum Animae' the previous night [ 1st Nov] again at 10.30 p.m. our time live via their website.
Oh, and Westminster Cathedral have just completed their American tour by giving a concert in St T a fortnight ago.
Magnificat
31-10-11, 01:26
What an odd sense of priorities. Precisely how many listeners does Magnificat believe will tune in to the broadcast on 2 November wanting and expecting to hear Choral Evensong? Indeed, how many people will visit his beloved St Alban's Abbey on the same day wanting and expecting to hear Evensong? If they do so, they will be in for a disappointment...
Wolsey,
Many people WILL tune in expecting to hear Choral Evensong on Wednesday at 3.30. They don't always look up the Radio Times.
If you go to St Albans you will have seen the monthly Music List so will know that there will be a service of solemn eucharist for All Souls Day. Actually, in my opinion, they have far too many eucharists at the Abbey since Jeffrey John, God bless him, became Dean, it has gone very high up the candle these days. Sanctuary bells the lot. I don't mind, I rather enjoy the bells and smells, but the needs of the middle of the road Anglican are in danger of being overlooked in this otherwise wonderfully ecumenical place.
It is only in the last couple of years that the BBC have substituted a requiem Mass for CE at All Souls-tide as far as I am aware. Why don't they do a separate broadcast?
Perhaps the BBC ought to list this slot on Wednesdays as Cathedral Worship rather than Choral Evensong in future.
A more coherent broadcast would be, as I said, Choral Evensong with appropriate music and prayers for All Souls Day.
Orbis Factor,
Compared with Evensong the RC liturgy for Vespers is manifestly awful and lets the music and the choir down to say the least.
I've often thought that it would be a nice ecumenical gesture if Westminster Cathedral did a broadcast of Choral Evensong now and again. There can be no doctrinal objection to it and their congregation would have the pleasure of hearing the incomparable liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer. I won't hold my breath though as the Roman Catholic hierarchy just do not seem to be able to give any sort of lead toward Christian unity despite the last Pope agreeing that our separation is a scandal.
VCC.
A point of information: the slot next Wednesday is NOT billed as Choral Evensong.
Vespers if sung is specifically - or it is in many foundations - a service conducted almost completely in plainchant. If you do not like plainchant, fair enough, Don't listen. I would rather have a Catholic choir singing it than an Anglican choir who by and large find plainchant a difficult discipline.
If you look even cursorily at Catholic cathedrals music lists you will very quickly see that 'Anglican' music does indeed form pretty significant parts of their lists, as indeed does 'Catholic' music in Choral Evensongs. Not quite sure what point you are trying to make, VCC. My own impression is of a considerable 'catholicity' of music choice throughout the UK, whatever the actual denomination of a particular church / cathedral might be.
A more coherent broadcast would be, as I said, Choral Evensong with appropriate music and prayers for All Souls Day.
Hard to disagree, though I won't be objecting to Victoria.
As for expecting anything from the RC establishment - don't! Unless it increases their own worldly power and influence and wealth, of course!
... an Anglican choir who by and large find plainchant a difficult discipline.
I really don't know where you get your ideas from Draco. Wrong again, I'm afraid.
Magnificat
31-10-11, 01:52
If you look even cursorily at Catholic cathedrals music lists you will very quickly see that 'Anglican' music does indeed form pretty significant parts of their lists, as indeed does 'Catholic' music in Choral Evensongs. Not quite sure what point you are trying to make, VCC. My own impression is of a considerable 'catholicity' of music choice throughout the UK, whatever the actual denomination of a particular church / cathedral might be.
Draco,
I agree that there is a mix of repertoire. I just think that since the broadcast is Choral Evensong it would be rather nice if WC or LMC would sing it. WC sing a combined Evensong with WA from time to time so it is would not be a totally alien thing for them and would also be a nice ecumenical gesture heard by millions.
VCC
french frank
31-10-11, 09:33
I just think that since the broadcast is Choral Evensong it would be rather nice if WC or LMC would sing it. WC sing a combined Evensong with WA from time to time so it is would not be a totally alien thing for them and would also be a nice ecumenical gesture heard by millions.But the programme 'is' Choral Evensong because, or when, the service is one of Choral Evensong; much in the way that many Radio 3 music programmes 'are' classical except when they're something else, like jazz. The deviations - if I may call them that without offence - are occasional and give great pleasure to those who normally are not catered for.
The Victoria Requiem Mass is an extraordinarily beautiful and important work, and Radio 3 listeners - that is, all of them who have an interest in such music, not just the faithful - are very privileged to have the opportunity to hear it sung by such a choir on such an occasion. That consideration, in my view, takes precedence over the (temporary?) disappointment some might feel of being deprived of a more familiar service. If outrage doesn't compel them to switch off before the alien sounds reach their ears, I'm sure they will find it very moving.
orbis factor
31-10-11, 10:37
Wolsey,
Many people WILL tune in expecting to hear Choral Evensong on Wednesday at 3.30. They don't always look up the Radio Times.
If you go to St Albans you will have seen the monthly Music List so will know that there will be a service of solemn eucharist for All Souls Day. Actually, in my opinion, they have far too many eucharists at the Abbey since Jeffrey John, God bless him, became Dean, it has gone very high up the candle these days. Sanctuary bells the lot. I don't mind, I rather enjoy the bells and smells, but the needs of the middle of the road Anglican are in danger of being overlooked in this otherwise wonderfully ecumenical place.
It is only in the last couple of years that the BBC have substituted a requiem Mass for CE at All Souls-tide as far as I am aware. Why don't they do a separate broadcast?
Perhaps the BBC ought to list this slot on Wednesdays as Cathedral Worship rather than Choral Evensong in future.
A more coherent broadcast would be, as I said, Choral Evensong with appropriate music and prayers for All Souls Day.
Orbis Factor,
Compared with Evensong the RC liturgy for Vespers is manifestly awful and lets the music and the choir down to say the least.
I've often thought that it would be a nice ecumenical gesture if Westminster Cathedral did a broadcast of Choral Evensong now and again. There can be no doctrinal objection to it and their congregation would have the pleasure of hearing the incomparable liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer. I won't hold my breath though as the Roman Catholic hierarchy just do not seem to be able to give any sort of lead toward Christian unity despite the last Pope agreeing that our separation is a scandal.
VCC.
Still not getting why the RC liturgy is awful and lets the choir down..
Miles Coverdale
31-10-11, 10:48
If you look even cursorily at Catholic cathedrals music lists you will very quickly see that 'Anglican' music does indeed form pretty significant parts of their lists, as indeed does 'Catholic' music in Choral Evensongs.
At Westminster Cathedral, with the exception of the psalms, which are sung in English, all the music sung by the choir is in Latin.
You know exactly what I mean. Or do you have a problem with inverted commas and what they indicate.
Please, no personal abuse. This is not a school playground.
orbis factor
31-10-11, 12:13
Please, no personal abuse. This is not a school playground.
Sorry - but the business of stating that the RC liturgy is manifestly awful (with no coherent argument as to why) on a public forum is pretty offensive to some of us too.
Simon Biazeck
31-10-11, 12:40
Sorry - but the business of stating that the RC liturgy is manifestly awful (with no coherent argument as to why) on a public forum is pretty offensive to some of us too. Well, of course, I agree with you Orbis, thank you! Not only is it personally offensive but also patronising to suggest that those of us who participate regularly in Choral Vespers are unwittingly being 'let down' by it. There is no reasonable response, because Evensong, as we know is based on Catholic monastic offices. I sing and greatly enjoy both forms of worship regularly with professional choirs in London and simply cannot imagine why anyone could be so prejudiced against one or the other unless that's a cipher for some other view. Unfortunately, I am not surprised that some of this thinly disguised intolerance appears on a board devoted to liturgical music. Disappointing and frustrating, which drove my previous, now deleted, attempt at humour. :peacedove:
Miles Coverdale
31-10-11, 12:46
You know exactly what I mean. Or do you have a problem with inverted commas and what they indicate.
Actually, I don't know what you mean. If by Anglican music you mean music in English, then Westminster Cathedral do not sing Anglican music, and they are the most obvious example in this country of a Catholic cathedral. If you look at the two music lists currently available on the Drome's web site, it's wall-to-wall Palestrina, Victoria, Tallis and Byrd, with a smattering of Howells and Elgar, all of it in Latin. One of the main points of the Anglican liturgy as originally formulated is that it was/should be in English. I think the rubrics of the BCP still specifically say that the Mag and Nunc should be in English.
So what did you mean by 'Anglican' music as opposed to 'Catholic'?
Historical point for VCC: Evensong is an amalgamation of the offices of Vespers and Compline: the Magnificat and the opening responses comes form the former, the Nunc from the latter, so Evensong is about half Vespers in any case.
The singing is going to be a bit of an anti-climax after so much sound and fury, isn't it? I mean, it's only Monday, 37 postings and the guys haven't even sung a note yet!
I really did think people were a bit more relaxed about who sings what in cathedrals these days, but apparently not.
Plainchant is not everyone's cup of tea, even for Catholics, and I can well see that what looks like an entire hour of it for the relatively unversed might seem a bit dull, particularly if you think that the choir doing it has a lot more colour to offer. I suspect that VCC may have intended that as the basis of his / her cry of frustration rather than to dismiss plainchant entirely. But he/she is more than capable of writing his/her own footnotes. :biggrin:
I like plainchant, have sung it on and off all my life since 9 yrs old, love its disciplines and appreciate them well delivered on CD / live services, and do not find it a problem, but I imagine we all know some who writhe under its straitnesses.
Tallis, Byrd and James MacMillan all set both English and Latin texts, Palestrina and Victoria used Latin because that was the lingua franca of the day so that it could safely be exported to wherever the Roman rite was celebrated. Latin and English these days are the two favoured languages for international religious / liturgical writing, and cathedrals pretty well universally sing in both languages AFAICS, no matter what their mother denomination is.
Simon Biazeck
31-10-11, 13:52
No, I'm sure they will sound splendid to all with open minds and ears!
orbis factor
31-10-11, 14:26
The singing is going to be a bit of an anti-climax after so much sound and fury, isn't it? I mean, it's only Monday, 37 postings and the guys haven't even sung a note yet!
I really did think people were a bit more relaxed about who sings what in cathedrals these days, but apparently not.
Plainchant is not everyone's cup of tea, even for Catholics, and I can well see that what looks like an entire hour of it for the relatively unversed might seem a bit dull, particularly if you think that the choir doing it has a lot more colour to offer. I suspect that VCC may have intended that as the basis of his / her cry of frustration rather than to dismiss plainchant entirely. But he/she is more than capable of writing his/her own footnotes. :biggrin:
I like plainchant, have sung it on and off all my life since 9 yrs old, love its disciplines and appreciate them well delivered on CD / live services, and do not find it a problem, but I imagine we all know some who writhe under its straitnesses.
Tallis, Byrd and James MacMillan all set both English and Latin texts, Palestrina and Victoria used Latin because that was the lingua franca of the day so that it could safely be exported to wherever the Roman rite was celebrated. Latin and English these days are the two favoured languages for international religious / liturgical writing, and cathedrals pretty well universally sing in both languages AFAICS, no matter what their mother denomination is.
Around 95% (perhaps more) of WC's sung output is Latin - save a couple of English Jubilates and carols etc. But these are a rarity.
One should point out that the vast majority of Roman Catholic worship is in the vernacular, worldwide. It is only outside the sphere of parish worship where the Latin Rite is allowed....Vatican 2 and all that. And Mrs Ardcarp has just experienced a very noisy and definitely vernacular Messe that was anything but Solennelle in France....you know the sort of thing; banal tunes being batted to and fro between someone with a mike and a quarter-tone flat congregation.
orbis factor
31-10-11, 15:00
One should point out that the vast majority of Roman Catholic worship is in the vernacular, worldwide. It is only outside the sphere of parish worship where the Latin Rite is allowed....Vatican 2 and all that. And Mrs Ardcarp has just experienced a very noisy and definitely vernacular Messe that was anything but Solennelle in France....you know the sort of thing; banal tunes being batted to and fro between someone with a mike and a quarter-tone flat congregation.
True
onemarathon
31-10-11, 15:31
The Office for the Dead or a Requiem Mass?
Actually the music for the Requiem Mass is just more beautiful whether it be Mozart, Durufle, Faure. And who more appropriate a composer than Victoria in this year, the 400th of his death?
One of Victoria's greatest works sung by the choir which perhaps has more Victoria through their veins then any other in the UK, in an actual liturgical setting - one can smell the incense wafting over the catafalque already...
Apart from Magnificat, I doubt most people will be too disappointed. Victoria's Requiem will be different from some of the syrupy Victoriana but then for some people, that's a good thing.
Magnificat
31-10-11, 17:07
Sorry - but the business of stating that the RC liturgy is manifestly awful (with no coherent argument as to why) on a public forum is pretty offensive to some of us too.
orbis factor
I am referring to the spoken parts of Vespers in modern English which just cannot compare with the BCP Evensong versicles, responses prayers, collects etc.
I'd say the same about Cof E modern rites. There is just no poetry about them - awful.
Offensive? - plenty of RCs and fellow Anglicans I know think the same.
VCC
orbis factor
31-10-11, 17:15
Which bits exactly?
Magnificat
31-10-11, 17:21
The Office for the Dead or a Requiem Mass?
Actually the music for the Requiem Mass is just more beautiful whether it be Mozart, Durufle, Faure. And who more appropriate a composer than Victoria in this year, the 400th of his death?
One of Victoria's greatest works sung by the choir which perhaps has more Victoria through their veins then any other in the UK, in an actual liturgical setting - one can smell the incense wafting over the catafalque already...
Apart from Magnificat, I doubt most people will be too disappointed. Victoria's Requiem will be different from some of the syrupy Victoriana but then for some people, that's a good thing.
onemarathon
I agree with you about the music for the Requiem Mass and even though I am not a fan of their sound I can take Westminster Cathedral choir singing it for an hour ( after which it will begin to grate). All I have pointed out is that this slot on Wednesdays is supposed to be Choral Evensong.
As far as I am concerned let's have a Requiem Mass for All Souls' Day but give it its own regular spot on Radio 3.
VCC
All I have pointed out is that this slot on Wednesdays is supposed to be Choral Evensong.
VCC
"is supposed to be". What does this mean? Is supposed to be - by whom, apart from yourself?
Magnificat
31-10-11, 17:35
Which bits exactly?
All of it.
Why don't you tell me what bits in modern RC Vespers you think compare for rhythm and poetry with those parts of the BCP Evensong service that I've quoted above.
VCC
Magnificat
31-10-11, 17:43
"is supposed to be". What does this mean? Is supposed to be - by whom, apart from yourself?
vinteuil
Really. Apart from the odd Choral Evening Prayer/ Vespers that's what it has been for the last God knows how many years. I have been listening regularly for some 30 years now and can only remember Requiem Masses last year and this.
VCC
french frank
31-10-11, 17:54
I have been listening regularly for some 30 years now and can only remember Requiem Masses last year and this.Not much to grumble about then.
Really, one might gain the impression that there was a great kerfuffle about this; but apart from Simon musing as to whether the WCC would be 'up to' it, VCC, you seem to be the only one not welcoming the broadcast. And even you aren't doing so (apparently) for yourself but on behalf of people who might possibly, somewhere, be upset, perhaps.
Perhaps, as Draco hinted earlier, we might concentrate on the music that we have to look forward to?
orbis factor
31-10-11, 18:16
All of it.
Why don't you tell me what bits in modern RC Vespers you think compare for rhythm and poetry with those parts of the BCP Evensong service that I've quoted above.
VCC
I'm not really about making comparisons between the two as I don't have problems with either. I just wondered which of the English spoken bits in WC's Vespers services you don't like? There's not much of it - apart from the intercessions (short) and homily of course.
onemarathon
31-10-11, 18:45
orbis factor
I am referring to the spoken parts of Vespers in modern English which just cannot compare with the BCP Evensong versicles, responses prayers, collects etc.
Spoken parts of Vespers? As far as I am aware, the only spoken parts are about 2-3 mins long - about 5 very brief intercessions and a Scripture reading that is rarely more than a few verses. Sung Vespers (on its own) takes about 30 mins, so more than 90% is in Latin and sung to plainchant - I'm not sure how fussy one has to be to be so dismissive of the worship of 1 billion Xtians.
In any case, for more than 90% of the chanted psalms right down to the versicles themselves (Deus in adiutorium etc.), apart from the language is almost entirely the same as the BCP Evensong liturgy minus the Compline which is a separate office.
(BTW If you're arguing that Latin Catholics should have their liturgy entirely in Latin - then I'm in agreement completely).
orbis factor
31-10-11, 19:36
Spoken parts of Vespers? As far as I am aware, the only spoken parts are about 2-3 mins long - about 5 very brief intercessions and a Scripture reading that is rarely more than a few verses. Sung Vespers (on its own) takes about 30 mins, so more than 90% is in Latin and sung to plainchant - I'm not sure how fussy one has to be to be so dismissive of the worship of 1 billion Xtians.
In any case, for more than 90% of the chanted psalms right down to the versicles themselves (Deus in adiutorium etc.), apart from the language is almost entirely the same as the BCP Evensong liturgy minus the Compline which is a separate office.
(BTW If you're arguing that Latin Catholics should have their liturgy entirely in Latin - then I'm in agreement completely).
Totally in agreement!
...perhaps I may add that those starved of Anglican CE could always plug in to a webcast from St John's, NCO or St Thomas Fifth Avenue at 3.30 on Wednesday. Personally I'll be tuning into live R3.....
Really. Apart from the odd Choral Evening Prayer/ Vespers that's what it has been for the last God knows how many years. I have been listening regularly for some 30 years now and can only remember Requiem Masses last year and this.
The BBC's online archive goes back to 2004 and John Seboldt's to 2002, so it's not possible to check as far back as 1981 to corroborate this claim. It is inaccurate, of course. All Souls' Day last fell on a Wednesday in 2005, and on that occasion, the music broadcast in the Choral Evensong slot was Duruflé's Requiem from Winchester Cathedral.
In Latin? From an Anglican Cathedral? Hmm.
Now now, DracoM! :winkeye:
Sorry, couldn't resist it! Promise never to be so flippant in future.
Well............
....maybe a little bit.
Magnificat
31-10-11, 22:49
Not much to grumble about then.
Really, one might gain the impression that there was a great kerfuffle about this; but apart from Simon musing as to whether the WCC would be 'up to' it, VCC, you seem to be the only one not welcoming the broadcast. And even you aren't doing so (apparently) for yourself but on behalf of people who might possibly, somewhere, be upset, perhaps.
Perhaps, as Draco hinted earlier, we might concentrate on the music that we have to look forward to?
french frank
The program has some 2/3 million listeners and we who inhabit this message board are just a handful of them. People being generally conservative don't like change so there are bound to very many who will be annoyed by this departure from the norm.
I still think that it would have been more coherent to have Choral Evensong for All Souls rather than a service that is completely different ( however good the music)?
What other innovations can we expect in future to comply, for example, with our brave new world of diversity and equality? I'm not going to think about it!!
VCC
VCC When it's a re-enactment of a Druid celebration of the Summer Solstice, maybe I'll join with you in complaining. Hmm. Second thoughts, it might be interesting.
french frank
31-10-11, 23:08
What other innovations can we expect in future to comply, for example, with our brave new world of diversity and equality? I'm not going to think about it!!Probably very wise, VCC!
Interestingly, Magdalen College choir (http://www.magd.ox.ac.uk/chapel-and-choir/services)is also seizing the opportunity to sing the Victoria 1605 Solemn Requiem on Wednesday (scroll down to 'Some Special Events This term').
I'm really looking forward to the broadcast. CE doesn't always have to come from one of The Shires.
On Wednesday, 15th September, 2005, for the Feast of the Exaltation of the Precious and Life-giving Cross, an Orthodox CE broadcast came from the Trinity Cathedral in the Danilov Monastery, the oldest monastery in Moscow, now the official residence of the Russian Patriarch. The Cathedral Choir directed by Georgi Safonov sang music by Dodonov, Chesnokov, Goncharov and Trubachev. The Gospel for the day was John 12 vv28-36. Archpriest Andrei Teterin gave the homily and the commentator was Canon Michael Bourdeaux. And marvellous it was as well. If R3 is to embrace diversity within Choral Evensong once in a while then I'm all for it.
IIRC, many years ago, they used to broadcast an Orthodox service from the Russian church in Paris as well as the one in Ennismore Gdns London from time to time.
subcontrabass
01-11-11, 23:08
I'm really looking forward to the broadcast. CE doesn't always have to come from one of The Shires.
On Wednesday, 15th September, 2005, for the Feast of the Exaltation of the Precious and Life-giving Cross, an Orthodox CE broadcast came from the Trinity Cathedral in the Danilov Monastery, .... If R3 is to embrace diversity within Choral Evensong once in a while then I'm all for it.
Perhaps one day we might even get a properly structured Orthodox service in the slot, rather than a selection of extracts in random order.
subcontrabass
01-11-11, 23:17
IIRC, many years ago, they used to broadcast an Orthodox service from the Russian church in Paris as well as the one in Ennismore Gdns London from time to time.
This used to be at Christmas (Julian Calendar) and Easter. The broadcast used the Radio 3 wavelengths from midnight to give a relay of the broadcast on the BBC Russian service. The Easter service was live, the Christmas service was recorded earlier and edited before transmission (I sang on the one in January 1969). The Christmas broadcasts disappeared some years before the Easter ones.
The switch to broadcasting from Paris at Easter for the two years (IIRC) before domestic transmission stopped (when Radio 3 started 24 hour broadcasting) was, I gather, mainly because the service in Paris was entirely in Church Slavonic whereas the London services were including some English, which was not useful for broadcasting to Russia. The stopping of these broadcasts also coincided with the demise of the Soviet Union and the start of broadcasting of services within Russia.
subcontrabass
01-11-11, 23:24
But the programme 'is' Choral Evensong because, or when, the service is one of Choral Evensong; much in the way that many Radio 3 music programmes 'are' classical except when they're something else, like jazz. The deviations - if I may call them that without offence - are occasional and give great pleasure to those who normally are not catered for.
The BBC has included non-Anglican services in this slot for around 50 years. I remember the first: Vespers (entirely in Latin) from a Benedictine Monastery (Quarr Abbey, I think). The singing (all plainsong) was, to put it politely, somewhat "rustic". The service was also somewhat shorter than a Cathedral Evensong, so the monks had to add several extra items at the end to fill up the time.
CORRECTION: I suggested upthread that people might like to hear the St Thomas Choir NYC singing [a] Victoria and Byrd on Nov 1st and Victoria Requiem on Nov 2nd at 10.30 p.m. our time. Stupid of me to have forgotten [B]the clocks going back!!!!
SO
revise those times to 9.30 p.m.
I know because I have just tuned in to the Tuesday webcast - to hear the closing chords of the voluntary only!!
The webcast will be available later via the same website, never fear!
I'm really looking forward to the broadcast. CE doesn't always have to come from one of The Shires.
On Wednesday, 15th September, 2005, for the Feast of the Exaltation of the Precious and Life-giving Cross, an Orthodox CE broadcast came from the Trinity Cathedral in the Danilov Monastery, the oldest monastery in Moscow, now the official residence of the Russian Patriarch. The Cathedral Choir directed by Georgi Safonov sang music by Dodonov, Chesnokov, Goncharov and Trubachev. The Gospel for the day was John 12 vv28-36. Archpriest Andrei Teterin gave the homily and the commentator was Canon Michael Bourdeaux. And marvellous it was as well. If R3 is to embrace diversity within Choral Evensong once in a while then I'm all for it.
Ah, well done, you found when it was then! I remember it well, and the glowing comments from most of us!
-0-0-0-
The thing with this discussion is that I see both sides: I agree with VCC (as most of us will) that the traditional boys/men evensongs according to BCP are an immensely precious tradition that we must preserve, as a pinnacle of excellence, at almost all costs. I can understand that when these are not broadcast there could be a feeling of disappointment. I also see how RC services can be unappealing: they are, usually, to me too. But I also think it good that the girl choirs to have a chance sometimes. I like the occasional variation, as long as the quality of singing is there. The once a year contemporary service has at times thrown up some real gems. The odd service from abroad is usually interesting and often well sung - though I doubt that the one Anna mentions as quoted above will be easily bettered - a truly glorious hour, that was.
In short, a balanced fare of mainly Anglican CE from a wide range of foundations, interspersed with the occasional departure from the norm, is what I'd regard as good and interesting programming.
And as far as I see it, that's about what we get, thankfully - though one could argue that some years the London/Oxbridge bias is a bit too obvious - though this year perhaps less so.
Regarding this week's offering specifically, as I stated on page 1 (and I've only just read, with some surprise, the strange responses to my post - what on earth are you people on about?) the music is superb, and if the choir sings it well it should be a treat.
Mightily impressive: that hard-edged but flexible tone that leads, boys sounding like real boys singing, giving it all they've got but without losing control of consummate skills and sensitivity. They inhabited that music. One of the real delights of this service for me were the rock steady second treble and alto lines, much of the time unobtrusive, but intervening with heart-stopping intensity at crucial moments and pulling so much of the rich harmonic structure together. Tenors wove very finely round the lines too, basses just a tad woolly for me, maybe lacked that sepulchral 'blackness' that anchors the Victoria textures and makes them sound so Iberian.
However, I do have one issue and that was the decision to conduct 90% of the spoken parts if the service in an almost caricature, fraffly public school and very English Latin. Practically all RC services these days in English churches are 100% in the vernacular - the SINGING may be in Latin, but not the rest of the service, and for my money there was no need to make damned sure that very few people could follow the intricacies of the worship. The BBC did not provide translations. How soon did they know this was going to happen?
So, bold decision by the BBC - if it was theirs, but I kept wondering if so universal a use of Latin for a national broadcast to a wide variety of religions would have been the case under Basil Hume? Maybe that's being just a bit naughty. I look forward to being rapped across the knuckles for such lese majeste.
However, I do have one issue and that was the decision to conduct 90% of the spoken parts if the service in an almost caricature, fraffly public school and very English Latin. Practically all RC services these days in English churches are 100% in the vernacular - the SINGING may be in Latin, but not the rest of the service, and for my money there was no need to make damned sure that very few people could follow the intricacies of the worship. The BBC did not provide translations. How soon did they know this was going to happen?
I loved the broadcast, OK, you may describe the Latin as iffy Public School, (and, goodness, they have a lot to answer for) but, you know, Latin ain't that difficult, I struggle with it at times but it was clear to me and I'm sure, even for those who could not totally understand, a wonderful service.
I cannot understand why Latin cannot be a component of Choral Evensong. Seems normal to me
I did not mean to imply that I thought Latin in CE was out of place, if so, I would like to correct that.
Just seemed a bit odd to run a service in which 90% of the spoken parts were in Latin. Yes, thanks to my background and education, my Latin is sufficiently OK [ not that public school Latin, tho'!!] to deal with it too, but I'd not be surprised if a significant proportion of CE listeners might have struggled more than a bit.
Maybe it's not an important issue for most CE listeners and I am being over-picky?
french frank
02-11-11, 19:45
So, bold decision by the BBC - if it was theirs, but I kept wondering if so universal a use of Latin for a national broadcast to a wide variety of religions would have been the case under Basil Hume? Maybe that's being just a bit naughty. I look forward to being rapped across the knuckles for such lese majeste.I wouldn't have thought it was too much of a strain to listen to words that weren't comprehensible for a short while. (R3 also broadcast a programme of Pliny's Natural History in Latin and I don't remember people complaining that it wasn't in English!).
First, though, the music: I thought it was beautifully performed and eloquently expressed the feelings. You don't have to be religious to sometimes think solemnly of those you have lost.
However, I do have one issue and that was the decision to conduct 90% of the spoken parts if the service in ... Latin.
Good Lord, Radio 3 will be doing operas in German and Italian next!
I was impressed most of all by the incredible control of the deliberately chosen very slow tempi. They worked for me (and I can imagine hearing it in the Drome itself) in everything except, perhaps, the Lux Aeterna which became a bit 'notey'. That feat of slowness, especially by youngsters with smaller lung capacity, has only been achieved, to my memory, by George Guest's very last Allegri Miserere from St John's which almost defied gravity!
I rather agree with Draco about the spoken (and very un-Italianate) Latin. No objection in principle, but it gave the service a rather inconsistent feeling, especially with that sudden 'cheerio' in English just before the final Pax Vobiscum.
IMHO if they're going to do a Requiem Mass as a piece of religious theatre they should avoid the temptation to be chatty!
Going back to matters choral, I thought the 1st trebles were less 'continental' than I've heard them...quite head-voicy really, and very pleasing...whilst the 2nds had a bit more steely edge. The men were also less rumbustious than I've heard them on occasions...i.e. they weren't singing their ******** off, so well done Martin Baker! :ok:
Totally agree about tempi. I tried singing with them in one or two places, and...erm..yes, the tempi were slow and brilliantly sustained. Not sure I agree about the trebs: the two lines constantly twine in and out of each other from pretty low to top of the stave, and I was impressed by the way they 'lifted' into that steel as they climbed the phrase. Still, whatever, it was deeply satisfying.
And at 9.30 p.m., St Thomas Fifth Avenue!! An Anglican choir doing the Latin / Iberian. Interesting comparison: 5 and a bit hours and 3, 000 miles apart, two fantastic choirs. one transcendental mass setting.
I found the Latin utterly fitting - in all its glassy clarity.
french frank
02-11-11, 21:55
If I could be a little bit facetious: I'm not at all familiar with the way Latin is usually pronounced these days in English Catholic services and, erm, I was reminded a bit of Edward Heath speaking French :blush:
But the music! the music! really, how can one be anything but grateful to Victoria and the Westminster choir?
MusicTeacher25
02-11-11, 22:01
I have been following CE for many years, and the forums, but yet have never been moved to comment before until today. Victoria's Requiem setting is one of the most sublime I know, and I have been a 'Drome' fan for almost all of my adult life, since visiting in the early 90's, so I was looking forward to today enormously, and indeed had encouraged my Upper Sixth to listen as well.
I was of the belief that they only use Latin for the Mass on a Saturday at the Cathedral, but perhaps All Souls is an exception? It did seem to feel a little deliberate to me, particularly when you heard the contrast between the Italianate choir speaking the responses and the Priest speaking in a very English way. That being said, I thought he sang very well, and preached quite interestingly.
But the singing, for me, was disappointing. An overzealous treble constantly trying to win the 'I can sing first' prize, the basses almost non-existent compared to normal, giving none of the that extraordinary richness of tone that this choir is famed for, and as for the tempos... What on earth was he thinking? It's not impressive, it's just ruddy boring. The work is in cut common time, except for the motet (which is in common time..) Surely this implies a special difference once you finally reach the release of Versa est? But not today.. It just felt like we were desperately filling the space so as not to have an organ voluntary (but of course, they might never have one there on this feast day I suppose). And why did every section have to have a ritenuto extended enough to file one's nails in? Tuning not desperately accurate in the top parts - thought they sounded tired, but then the tempos would do that..
Sorry to rant, but to hear my favourite choir sing one of my favourite pieces was something I was really looking forward to.
Ah well..
french frank
02-11-11, 22:20
Welcome, MT25!
Well, how will the debate unfold....?
Finzi4ever
02-11-11, 23:01
"fraffly public school"
Pray tell, DM, what's a fraffly public school???
Resolutely pronouncing Latin syllabically as if it was a class exercise uttered by a slightly bored Magister so that it sounds as if it is really in English but in this funny foreign lingo. No attempt whatever to give it any lilt, rhythm or even a hint of Italianate to bring out the music. He made it sound like a posh shopping list.
And I am still trying to come to terms with MT25's provocations! I'll think of something. Maybe I will actually listen again, but not tonight. Just finished hearing St Thomas Fifth Ave NYC singing same piece live via their website. Clarity particularly from the exemplary men, much better sound pallette too. Nothing like as densely packed and 'crowded' as the BBC's felt this p.m.
It wasn't a public-school pronunciation of Latin - it was the usual Italianate pronunciation that's still used in Catholic churches when they use Latin at all, though possibly spoken in rather an English public school accent.
The music was wonderful - the daringly slow tempi expecially at the beginning did work, I thought.
But since so many people on this thread have objected to the quality of modern translations of the Catholic liturgy, and since unfortunately there aren't any C17 translations one might use, it seems churlish to object to a bit of Latin instead.
Yes indeed, welcome MT25
But the singing, for me, was disappointing. An overzealous treble constantly trying to win the 'I can sing first' prize, the basses almost non-existent compared to normal, giving none of the that extraordinary richness of tone that this choir is famed for, and as for the tempos... What on earth was he thinking? It's not impressive, it's just ruddy boring. The work is in cut common time, except for the motet (which is in common time..) Surely this implies a special difference once you finally reach the release of Versa est? But not today.. It just felt like we were desperately filling the space so as not to have an organ voluntary (but of course, they might never have one there on this feast day I suppose). And why did every section have to have a ritenuto extended enough to file one's nails in? Tuning not desperately accurate in the top parts - thought they sounded tired, but then the tempos would do that..
Agreed, it was not the gutsy singing of a type one often gets from them. It's as if MB were turning aside from that amazing legacy (Tenebrae of Gerrge Malcolm and the astonishing Frank Martin/Pizzetti disc of J O'D) and trying something a bit different. He was clearly after a very slow, sustained and homogeneous sound. I didn't find it 'ruddy boring' though I personally have always done it with more movement and more sense of line. I must LA, but I wasn't aware of your star-struck treble! The sound was less 'continental' than usual, and there wasn't much Iberian passion....but I really do think MB decided on a certain approach and brought it off. Mrs Ardcarp sucked her teeth at the occasional narrow major third from trebles, but hey...so what?
gainasbass
03-11-11, 01:07
Well, I was able to listen (albeit I am struggling to remember/come to terms with the 3.30 bit!), and I can appreciate the boarders' posts about the music and the spoken/Latin parts of this service. What has to be remembered is that the wonderful Victoria setting was sung in the context of a Cathedral service and the tempi were appropriately slower than, say, a concert performance by The Sixteen.
I'll try to listen again, but over the hi-fi the Choir sounded well balanced and I thought that the basses were quite prominent and provided a firm anchor when required. Well done Martin Baker and the Choir of WC!
Magnificat
03-11-11, 01:46
Tuning not desperately accurate in the top parts - thought they sounded tired, but then the tempos would do that..
MT25
Tuning in the top parts was the main criticism that Sir David Willcocks had of George Malcolm's choir at WC and has been one of mine of the choirs there for years although I have often been ridiculed for it. It's because of the way they sing.
Being tired is the old excuse rolled out when boys aren't singing particularly well but it may well be true here because the choir have just returned from a,no doubt, very gruelling trip to the USA.
I enjoyed the service there was some lovely sonorous singing as usual in that very generous acoustic (which can hide a multitude of sins) and obviously WC sing repertoire and in a style ( even if not really my taste) that suits it.
It's when you hear choirs singing away from home in a more normal acoustic that you can judge whether they are all they are cracked up to be. It's not just WC, King's, for example, never travel well, in my opinion, they always sound better in that glorious building and other college choirs often struggle to fill a much bigger space.
I thought the homily was well preached but, as has been said, the cheery goodbye did sound slightly out of place. The service should have been left to finish naturally and without comment it would have better suited the occasion.
I'd have preferred to hear a Choral Evensong for All Souls but since we were given a Requiem Mass there is probably no better place in the country to hear one so thanks to Martin Baker and his team at WC.
VCC
I was very grateful for the Latin, but of course I’m horribly biased. I could accept the pronunciation – anything more ‘Italianate’ would surely have sounded theatrical from so English a voice – but I liked most the fluency, the delivery by a man familiar with his text and its significance. (Unfortunately, that text bears roughly the same literary relationship to ‘proper’ Latin as Dan Brown does to Shakespeare, but at least it does the job and is proving fairly durable.)
Ah yes, the music. Wonderful – I could have listened till midnight. It’s true that the trebs were less reedy than heretofore, but they remained steely. Most of all, I admired the way this choir circumvented the usual need to breathe when singing; I admired the way that, even at a stately adagio, the sound was never still – it was constantly going somewhere or on the way back, and even at rest it quivered with life; I admired the attention to detail, as when cum was distinctly rendered as ‘coombe’ (koom?); I admired the way the acoustic was deployed as an allied force on the flanks. And so on and so on…… though I did find the plainsong just a mite more pedestrian than expected. I am utterly mystified by MT25’s reservations, and am thankful that, lacking such exquisite taste, I was able to relish Victoria at a slower pace than allegretto . In sum, an hour well spent, though it seemed but a minute – and all this from someone who has no great affection for RC services in the CE slot.
The Kyrie alone was worth the entrance money. Risky speed, but the way the whole choir lifted seamlessly, in total control, shifting the volume and intensity was miraculous.
As I said above, I listened with the score to hand. I have sung this piece many times, BUT because I was not concentrating on my own part, I was very struck in this service by the way Victoria constantly and insistently plays the top three lines against each other. Much of the time, when listening from outside as it were, you THINK you're hearing one treble line working against as well as with lower parts as with much polyphony, but actually you aren't. The top two treble lines constantly interweave, change places, leading, echoing, such that the leading trebles and altos emerge from textures and are made to sound like soloists. If you have the taught/cultivated steeliness of West Cath trebs, you are going to, nay you are required to, cut through big textures and lead. That's your job. If you have an acoustic like that, you double the need to cut through to stop the sound simply being a 'holy wash'. Victoria is NOT wash. The lines are very, very clearly etched, and a good performance reflects that. This was live, not edited CD-quality, and LAing this a.m. brought out just how huge the burden is on the top treble lines to carry the argument. The Basses by and large are busking/anchoring as are the altos - and fantastically well that second treble and alto line did their job - the tenors have some virtuoso bits to do as well at critical point. But the trebles are the live heart of that Requiem, and there is nowhere to hide. I thought the St Thomas men later in the day were better than West Cath, much clearer in diction surprisingly, and less waffly in tone - the St T webcast was a 'cleaner' less dense palette and helped the textures to stand out.
For me, the West Cath boys were tireless - well, nearly. That is one heck of a big sing and particularly at those tempi, and their responsiveness to the demands was exemplary. They sang in huge arcs, apparently denying gravity and the rules of breathing much of the time, and I was deeply impressed. Yes, there were blemishes - alas, the sumptuous and tragic motectum Verrsa Est in Luctum sagged just a bit, but I was prepared to be carried by the music rather than nit-pick.
All that singing in one hour? Come on, give them a break.
Two years ago I was in the great chapel of El Escurial outside Madrid and this was the music, known and sung for literally thirty years, that instantly resonated in my head throughout the walk round. Under the chapel is the astonishing mausoleum containing passageways with rank upon rank of sarcophagi, and the central hexagonal space is sheathed in black marble dimly lit under the chapel floor. In the chapel itself, you can see the grilled window above the gospel side of the high altar [ and I do mean high!] behind which Phillip II would kneel to hear the office sung. This music is of a piece with that severe, ascetic, almost forbidding splendour. For me, Westminster captured Victoria's own intense meditation on death in this service.
Sorry it did not take some others as forcefully.
subcontrabass
03-11-11, 19:04
I thought the Victoria was extremely well done. Tempi were suited to the building. The parts blended. The two treble lines were well-balanced as they wove around each other.
Very nice to have a service where the music is "all of a piece".
onemarathon
03-11-11, 19:21
I heard on Listen Again (3.30 is just no good for people who work) and the Kyrie was indeed sung (after the Confiteor).
Kyrie was indeed exquisite. Especially the Christe eleison - surely mourning music if there ever was one. My favourite part of the service.
Interesting tempi for though - slow, sustained and stately. Worked well in parts (K, S, A particularly), though felt abit austere in others, and Baker wasn't quite able to pull it off in the Versa est in luctum. The two treble lines were very impressive indeed - especially Treble 2.
But the choir did sound "top heavy" in terms of blend - were there fewer men than usual? Whatever happened to that London 'men' sound?
Would have liked a bit more plainchant if I'm honest - so rarely do we hear the Westminster house-style of chanting (the more sombre monastic style seems to be all the rage). Ideally - the Mass Ordinary and 1/2 motets to the Victoria setting, and the introit, gradual, etc to plainchant. Would have liked to hear the Dies Irae sequence sung to plainchant.
MT25 Have you listened to the St Thomas New York webcast of the Victoria Requiem (Solemn Mass) from yesterday? I think you might be bowled over by it.
http://www.saintthomaschurch.org/calendar/2011/11/02/worship/2649/
Chris Watson
04-11-11, 01:13
This is the first time I've heard one of the St Thomas webcasts (I always try to hear them live when I am in NY, and it's one of my favourite churches anywhere) and I'm definitely going to listen to more. What wonderful singing!
Hi Chris. Good to hear from you again. Any comments about WCC's broadcast, or is that a big ask?
BWs
a.
Finzi4ever
04-11-11, 15:30
Are you still singing at the Drome Chris and/or were you 'on' on Wed? Apols for not spotting dulcet tones if so, but testament to fantastic blend also!
Chris Watson
04-11-11, 16:04
I do sing there sometimes, but I left in 2004. I wasn't there this week, and will listen properly this evening. My initial thoughts on hearing the first 5 mins was that the Requiem was a little slower than I take it with my choir (but then it is an enormous building!) and that they weren't best served by the BBC engineers (and if that is the case it wouldn't be for the first time......). I do, however, sing at Merton quite a bit, and was there for their broadcast (thanks Ardcarp for liking the tenors and thinking they didn't sound too old!) and can say with certainty that the Beeb failed to capture the sound of the building - unlike Paul Baxter of Delphian Records, who has made a few excellent CDs there with Merton (their 1st disc is just out and sounds wonderful) and Tewkesbury Abbey (who have just done a Mozart disc, due for release this month, with possibly the best treble solo singing ever heard!).
Have you heard NCO / Higginbottom doing Mozart Req? All male including boy soloists? Worth more than a second listen. And I certainly echo your disappointment with the BBC engineers for the Merton Coll CE. VERY dry indeed, did not do the singers any favours IMO. Made it sound very boxy.
I've often thought that it would be a nice ecumenical gesture if Westminster Cathedral did a broadcast of Choral Evensong now and again.
VCC.
I've often thought that it would be a nice ecumenical gesture if we gave them back some of the churches we nicked. :whistle:
Simon Biazeck
05-11-11, 00:36
I've often thought that it would be a nice ecumenical gesture if we gave them back some of the churches we nicked. :whistle:
Yes, please! Hilarious - not enough humour here - thank you!
Magnificat
05-11-11, 14:32
I've often thought that it would be a nice ecumenical gesture if we gave them back some of the churches we nicked. :whistle:
bach736
They don't want them back - as illustrated by the famous story about York Minster when it was being underpinned ( I think ) at great expense some years ago.
An Anglican vicar and a Roman Catholic priest were passing by and the latter said to the former " I'm glad it's not ours anymore."
VCC
St Etheldreda's Ely Place must be the only pre-Reformation church they've succeeded in hanging on to.
http://www.stetheldreda.com/history.html
St Etheldreda's Ely Place must be the only pre-Reformation church they've succeeded in hanging on to.
http://www.stetheldreda.com/history.html
... I think that's right.
But an hon: mention for Our Lady of the Assumption and St Gregory, Warwick Street; and for St James, Spanish Place...
www.findachurch.co.uk/search/church_view.php?church_id=10704
www.roughguides.com/travel/europe/england/london/marylebone/st-jamess-church-spanish-place.aspx
St Etheldreda's Ely Place must be the only pre-Reformation church they've succeeded in hanging on to.
http://www.stetheldreda.com/history.html
I work near there, and love that place and its environs... At the end of Ely Place is a door in the enormous wooden door leading to Bleeding Heart Yard, one of the main locations in Dickens's "Little Dorrit", and now the location of the delightful Bleeding Heart brasserie. They also own the Crypt of St Etheldreda's where the ominous Henry VIII wedding feast occurred (as referred to in the article in jean's excellent link), and where one can feast oneself nowadays http://www.bleedingheart.co.uk/crypt/index.php
And next door is the wonderful and diminutive Mitre Tavern, as atmospheric a place for a pint as any I know, especially if one wants a dose of Dickensian atmos free of traffic noise etc...http://www.pubs.com/main_site/pub_details.php?pub_id=165
But an hon: mention for Our Lady of the Assumption and St Gregory, Warwick Street; and for St James, Spanish Place...
Not quite pre-Reformation, though! But a relic of the times when one could hear the otherwise proscribed Catholic liturgy in churches which were (I think) technically within the territory of the embassies they served.
(The last time I heard the Victoria was at St James, Spanish Place, in the context of a full Tridentine Requiem Mass at the funeral of a dear friend earlier this year.)
Magnificat
05-11-11, 20:51
Although Anglican pre - Reformation churches are no longer owned by the Catholic church there are many examples of The Cof E welcoming their use by local Catholics.
St Albans Abbey, for example, is very strong on ecumenism generally and was a pioneer in having chaplains from all the major denominations and has at least one Roman Catholic Honoraray Canon as a member of its College of Canons.
The local Catholics have a regular Friday Mass in the beautiful Lady Chapel which they are encouraged to treat as their own and the local Roman Catholic boys independent school has donated a new and rather lovely stained glass window to commemorate a school anniversary and fill one of the existing plain glass windows with colour and it also provides boys for the choir.
Personally, although I have been brought up as a member of the Cof E and am at home in it, I am not a supporter of denominational Christianity. I love the liturgy, music and ritual etc but for me as an individual and for anyone else who calls themselves a Christian it is not necessary and nor is most of the doctrine of the various churches. All that is necessary is to be able to accept The Lord's Prayer, Apostles' Creed and the Ten Commandments and Christ's new commandment to love one another.
Jesus never dictated any doctrine other than this, any liturgy, or any other form of Church organisation to St Peter as far as I am aware and would think, I am sure, that all the denominational set - ups we have at present and have had for centuries are ridiculous.
Since we do have them the best we can hope for in the forseeable future is unity without uniformity and to share our churches.
VCC
All that is necessary is to be able to accept The Lord's Prayer, Apostles' Creed and the Ten Commandments
I wonder if the Unitarians fall within your parameters?
There is, incidentally, a shared cemetery (Anglican and RC) not far from my home, and I think that is rare if not unique. The ultimate ecumenical gesture, perhaps?
Magnificat
07-11-11, 01:02
ardcarp,
I was, of course, referring to the main Christian denominations which are all Trinitarian and I myself believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ.
However, I would include Unitarians as they believe what I consider to be His essential teaching that we should love God and our neighbour as ourselves.
VCC
Incidentally, this is one of the longest running threads on The Choir for a single event. I wonder why?
Incidentally, this is one of the longest running threads on The Choir for a single event. I wonder why?
Mainly because we all get on our hobby horses which gallop off topic.....
Famous finale of one of Stephen Leacock's stories, I believe? "Lord Ronald said nothing; he flung himself from the room, flung himself upon his horse and rode madly off in all directions."
On the St John's Coll, Cambridge Choir website is a fascinating live in-serve performance of Victoria's Missa pro Defunctis x 4 from Nov 2nd, with men singing all four parts. Not a great recording, but well worth investigating.
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