View Full Version : Pomp & Circumstances March No.1: Do You Like It?
I mean, of course, Pomp and CircumstanCE.
Superb piece of orchestral music I'd say.
I like all five of the Marches but feel it necessary to detach one's mind from the words. No 5 is my favourite, perhaps because it has no particular associations.
I like all five of the Marches but feel it necessary to detach one's mind from the words. No 5 is my favourite, perhaps because it has no particular associations.
I have to agree with you on detaching one's mind from the words - but is that actually possible, for a UK listener, at least? Most people only know it as LOHAG, anyway, and were first introduced to it in the 'song' version.
I prefer to forget the associations and think of it as an evocation of Edwardian England (or, rather, a certain aspect of Edwardian England) - all swagger and bombast, and unashamedly so.
Mark Elder seriously went down in my estimation when he refused to conduct this work at the 1990 Proms (and was -rightly - sacked from that gig as a result). His reasoning that it would just be used as an excuse for sabre-rattling in the wake of the invasion of Kuwait just doesn't wash; methinks he was just trying to draw attention to himself.
these days there's a number six too, though some may find that rather Payne-ful to contemplate
Mark Elder didn't refuse to conduct anything at the Last Night of the Proms - surprisingly he knew in advance what the programme would be. He suggested that a over-enthusiastic celebration might be inappropriate while our troops were in action (and potentially being killed). Our wonderful rubbish press manufactured a scandal and Elder stepped down. Elder had conducted the Last Night (including P&C No 1) before (1987) and has done so since (2006). He has no need to draw attention to himself.
Mark Elder didn't refuse to conduct anything at the Last Night of the Proms - surprisingly he knew in advance what the programme would be. He suggested that a over-enthusiastic celebration might be inappropriate while our troops were in action (and potentially being killed). Our wonderful rubbish press manufactured a scandal and Elder stepped down. Elder had conducted the Last Night (including P&C No 1) before (1987) and has done so since (2006). He has no need to draw attention to himself.
I'm pleased to hear that and apologise to Mr. Elder.
However, I'm not sure why he feared an 'over-enthusiastic celebration': in my experience, people who listen to orchestral music and pay to hear it in concert don't tend to be given to jingoism or overt celebration of nationhood. Quite the contrary, in fact.
Always happy to hear P&C1 and the others in a good performance! On CD I think the recording (strangely on Deutsche Grammophon) made in 1975 in Guildford Cathedral by Norman Del Mar and the RPO knocks the spots off any others I have heard :ok:
Always happy to hear P&C1 and the others in a good performance! On CD I think the recording (strangely on Deutsche Grammophon) made in 1975 in Guildford Cathedral by Norman Del Mar and the RPO knocks the spots off any others I have heard :ok:Thanks a million for reminding me of the much-missed maestro Norman Del Mar, Caliban :ok:
He wrote (at least) a fascinating book on the instruments of the orchestra which, for one who can only play a paper & comb, is endlessly informative.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anatomy-Orchestra-Norman-Del-Mar/dp/0571250998/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322397777&sr=8-1
Maybe memories of Maestro Del Mar deserves a thread all his own? :smiley:
I prefer to forget the associations and think of it as an evocation of Edwardian England (or, rather, a certain aspect of Edwardian England) - all swagger and bombast, and unashamedly so.
I like this piece very much, but not with any words. Elgar didn't write it with words, and when he did set the big tune to A C Benson's words, he rewrote the piece, either as the finale of the Coronation Ode, or as the song Land of Hope. He never added words to the march. I have conducted it without singing, but I had quite a battle with the orchestra's committee to get them to agree, so ingrained are the words. I recall Alex Gibson doing it this way at the Usher Hall, and he had to ask the audience in advance not to sing.
The fame of the big tune has perhaps obscured the rest of the march. The opening two sections show a restlessness that is far removed from any feeling of complacency. Neither rhythm nor tonality settles well until the trio begins. Elgar enjoyed jokes and was always amused that he had begun his march ‘in D major’ with a unison E♭throughout the orchestra. There is also a subtle change to the rhythm of the big tune the last time it comes, which is lost if words are sung.
It was dedicated to Alfred Rodewald, who I believe had been Hans Richter's only conducting pupil, and who gave the first performance, at New Brighton with the Liverpool Orchestral Society. The supreme irony is that both this piece and Nimrod were dedicated to close friends who were both German.
I like this piece very much, but not with any words. Elgar didn't write it with words, and when he did set the big tune to A C Benson's words, he rewrote the piece, either as the finale of the Coronation Ode, or as the song Land of Hope. He never added words to the march. I have conducted it without singing, but I had quite a battle with the orchestra's committee to get them to agree, so ingrained are the words. I recall Alex Gibson doing it this way at the Usher Hall, and he had to ask the audience in advance not to sing.
The fame of the big tune has perhaps obscured the rest of the march. The opening two sections show a restlessness that is far removed from any feeling of complacency. Neither rhythm nor tonality settles well until the trio begins. Elgar enjoyed jokes and was always amused that he had begun his march ‘in D major’ with a unison E♭throughout the orchestra. There is also a subtle change to the rhythm of the big tune the last time it comes, which is lost if words are sung.
It was dedicated to Alfred Rodewald, who I believe had been Hans Richter's only conducting pupil, and who gave the first performance, at New Brighton with the Liverpool Orchestral Society. The supreme irony is that both this piece and Nimrod were dedicated to close friends who were both German.
Thanks for that, pabmusic: there's a lot there I didn't know. :)
I think you're right about the restlessness of the opening and middle sections - we can make our own minds up as to what this restlessness pertains to? An Empire restless to extend its borders, perhaps? Or a liberal country restless to improve itself, so ALL can share in the goodies of its martime wealth? Or both?
I particularly lke the section that begins at aroun 01:30 and reappears at the four and a half minute mark (excuse lack of musical terms).
My favourite recording is, oddly enough, by Sir Georg Solti and the LPO: Sir Georg was never a man who looked down on a bit of healthy vulgarity and he really goes for the jugular of this piece with particular East European vigour, yet renders entirely idiomatic results. For a man who claimed to never 'get' the English, he rather shows our native conductors up, I think. Not once is the Hungarian army evoked! :)
Mandryka: I was wrong on one point, Elder was actually sacked, by John Drummond. In the words of the Manchester Evening News reporting his knighthood:
'The recognition comes as a particular vindication for Mark, who was attacked for a supposed lack of patriotism over a comment on the contents of the Last Night of the Proms which he was to conduct in 1990, during the first Gulf War.
The BBC caved into pressure and dropped him. But he was invited back in 2006 and conducted one of the most successful Last Nights ever'
You are right, orchestral concerts 'don't tend to be given to jingoism or overt celebration of nationhood' but the Last Night is just that. It can be a very enjoyable occasion but Elder thought a more muted celebration would be in order while we were at war.
After many years I gave up on the Last Night, not because of the jingoism etc but the schlock that now seems an integral part of it. If I want P&C No 1 I have an excellent performance of it by Sir John Barbirolli (and the other four marches); for LOHG I have the 'Coronation Ode' (Ledger) with the words in their first (slightly less jingoistic) incarnation. For the familiar version, I have it sung by Kathleen Ferrier (Barbirolli again) and she almost makes you believe in the jingoistic old tosh.
Mandryka: I was wrong on one point, Elder was actually sacked, by John Drummond. In the words of the Manchester Evening News reporting his knighthood:
'The recognition comes as a particular vindication for Mark, who was attacked for a supposed lack of patriotism over a comment on the contents of the Last Night of the Proms which he was to conduct in 1990, during the first Gulf War.
The BBC caved into pressure and dropped him. But he was invited back in 2006 and conducted one of the most successful Last Nights ever'
You are right, orchestral concerts 'don't tend to be given to jingoism or overt celebration of nationhood' but the Last Night is just that. It can be a very enjoyable occasion but Elder thought a more muted celebration would be in order while we were at war.
After many years I gave up on the Last Night, not because of the jingoism etc but the schlock that now seems an integral part of it. If I want P&C No 1 I have an excellent performance of it by Sir John Barbirolli (and the other four marches); for LOHG I have the 'Coronation Ode' (Ledger) with the words in their first (slightly less jingoistic) incarnation. For the familiar version, I have it sung by Kathleen Ferrier (Barbirolli again) and she almost makes you believe in the jingoistic old tosh.
I've never understood why 'patriotism' has to be inexplicably bound up with gunboats, the army and other such military one-upmanship.
I'm no flag-waver, but I see nothing wrong in taking some degree of pride in your country's peaceful achievements, even if it's all a bit meaningless when all is said and done (and, for the record, I think of myself as 'European' rather than British or English).
In fact, if Elder had made comments along those lines in the Conductor's Speech which he never got to deliver, I don't see how he could have been accused of a lack of patriotism.
Barbirollians
27-11-11, 13:32
Indeed she does through the terrible recording quality .
Coincidentally , I was thinking about old Norman del Mar last night when listening to the lovely performance of Serenade for Strings he conducted now coupled with Barbirolli's symphonies . He conducted as I recall it a raved about Enigma on DG - perhaps that was coupled with the P & C that Caliban refers to ?
He conducted as I recall it a raved about Enigma on DG - perhaps that was coupled with the P & C that Caliban refers to ?
:ok: Precisely, Barb. A disc no-one who likes Elgar should be without!
Indeed she does through the terrible recording quality .
Coincidentally , I was thinking about old Norman del Mar last night when listening to the lovely performance of Serenade for Strings he conducted now coupled with Barbirolli's symphonies . He conducted as I recall it a raved about Enigma on DG - perhaps that was coupled with the P & C that Caliban refers to ?
Yes, the Enigma and P & C Marches were issued together (about 1976?) on a small record label that I can't remember. DG must have later acquired the recordings.
Serial_Apologist
27-11-11, 13:45
(Over)familiarity with P&C No 1 undoubtedly led to an anti-Elgar prejudice in me over many years, not having heard much of his other music: particularly the life-affirming Introduction & Allegro. I hate the section of the march with lyrics. The rest of it is wonderful: a brilliant exercise in orchestration and a chromaticism that must surely have shocked audiences at the beginning of the last century. If the first section, with its repeats, had been reformulated, minus the patriotic march, it would have made a stunning orchestral scherzo, imho.
S-A
Yes, the Enigma and P & C Marches were issued together (about 1976?) on a small record label that I can't remember. DG must have later acquired the recordings.Here's the link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Enigma-Variations-Sir-Edward/dp/B00000E4HF/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1322401586&sr=1-1
Norfolk Born
27-11-11, 13:48
It's Elgar, so of course I like it! :laugh:
Chris Newman
27-11-11, 14:49
I love Pomp and Circumstance March No 1 when the big tune is taken briskly (without words) as by the composer, Tod Handley (love the organ!!) and Georg Solti. It has an autumnal bitter/sweet feel to it: though nothing about glory. Take it slowly and it is a dirge. It is neither a solemn nor a happy melody and a conductor needs to get the balance right otherwise it errs towards gloom. David Owen-Norris did a brilliant analysis of the melody recently in John Bridcut's film about the composer, Elgar: The Man Behind the Mask, putting this much better than I am.
Eine Alpensinfonie
27-11-11, 14:58
It's Elgar, so of course I like it! :laugh:
Me too. :smiley:
I can't think of anything by Elgar that I don't like.
Mandyka: I fully agree with your sentiments about patriotism. In Elder affair the rubbish press, as I said, manufactured a 'scandal' and the BBC (as usual) caved in. Elder's views scarcely got a look-in.
MrGongGong
27-11-11, 15:48
Sadly for me, even though its a brilliant tune (YES I do mean that !) and great orchestration I am unable to separate it from what it has come to stand for which is sad but that's aways part of music !
Brassbandmaestro
27-11-11, 16:38
I must be one opf the ;lucky ones who can dissacoiate the 'big tune' from the words.Taken as on itself, it's a really great uplifting piece of music. Just makes you want to stand up!
I love Pomp and Circumstance March No 1 when the big tune is taken briskly (without words) as by the composer, Tod Handley (love the organ!!) and Georg Solti. It has an autumnal bitter/sweet feel to it: though nothing about glory. Take it slowly and it is a dirge. It is neither a solemn nor a happy melody and a conductor needs to get the balance right otherwise it errs towards gloom. David Owen-Norris did a brilliant analysis of the melody recently in John Bridcut's film about the composer, Elgar: The Man Behind the Mask, putting this much better than I am.
I thought it might be interesting to post a fuller piece about P & C 1, since – how I agree! – the words have coloured our perception of it. The following is adapted from prefaces I wrote for editions of the P & C Marches and the Coronation Ode. I used part of it in an earlier post, but the full thing might put it all in context.
"This is the best known of them all. It contains the tune that Elgar was to use in the Coronation Ode for the 1902 coronation, and which was to become the patriotic song, Land of Hope and Glory. However, it is sometimes forgotten that it was originally without words and became popular in that guise. Elgar knew from the start he had found one of the great tunes: “I’ve got a tune that will knock ‘em - knock ‘em flat”.
The first performance – together with No. 2 – was given in New Brighton, near Liverpool, on 19 October 1901 by the Liverpool Orchestral Society conducted by its dedicatee, the German Alfred Rodewald. It was an instant hit, being repeated in London soon after.
Then came a suggestion from the new king (Edward VII) that words should be set to the tune. “It will go round the world”, he said. (At least, that was Elgar’s tale; it seems more likely that the suggestion first came from Clara Butt.) Shortly thereafter, Elgar was commissioned by the management of the Royal Opera House to write a piece in celebration of the forthcoming coronation, to be performed at a gala concert at Covent Garden on the eve of the event. Elgar decided to use The Tune.
His friend, the German August Jaeger, publishing manager at Novellos (and Nimrod in the Enigma Variations), was not so sure. “I say, you will have to write another tune…I have been trying to fit words to it. The drop to E and the bigger drop afterwards are quite impossible in singing any words to them, they sound downright vulgar. Just try it…It will sound horrible.” However, Elgar was determined (“I haven’t time to answer all your impertinent letters…” he wrote), and approached Arthur Benson to write a libretto. Arthur Christopher Benson had met Elgar already about the time of the King’s accession in January 1901. He was a Housemaster (resident teacher) at Eton College and later became Master of Magdalene College, Oxford. Benson worked enthusiastically to produce suitable words for Elgar’s music, and he succeeded in writing a libretto which encapsulated both the hope and the anxieties of the time.
Elgar began writing the music in February, completing the orchestration of the score in April. Boosey & Hawkes paid £100 for it and a royalty for every vocal score sold. They also suggested releasing Land Of Hope And Glory as a solo song, and composer and librettist responded by altering the words to create a more general-purpose patriotic song. It is this version that has the 'wider still and wide' words. At no stage was the March published with words, and such performances do nothing more than sing a very small part of the song - and in G and D to boot (B flat is more usual for the song)
The fame of the central tune has perhaps obscured the rest of the march. Its opening two sections show a restlessness that is far removed from any feeling of complacency. Neither rhythm nor tonality settles well until the G major trio begins. Even the glittering orchestration helps to reinforce a sense of urgency, with off-beat thumps on bass drum and virtuoso passages for brass, particularly trombones. Elgar loved jokes (“japes” he often called them) and was always amused that he had begun his march ‘in D major’ with a unison E flat throughout the orchestra!
There is even a surprise in the famous trio tune, for on its return in D major at the end of the march Elgar alters its rhythm for just one bar at the climax. It is an effective touch that is lost completely when massed voices sing Land of Hope and Glory. The march is still occasionally performed without singing, but it is common to warn the audience beforehand not to sing! If this succeeds, the full brilliance of Elgar’s orchestration can be appreciated, with sleigh bells, glockenspiel and an organ adding to the effect.
Something should be said about the separate life that the great trio tune has in the USA. In 1905, Yale University awarded Elgar an honorary doctorate in music, following a proposal by his friend Professor Samuel Sanford, the dedicatee of the Introduction and Allegro for strings. The composer attended the degree ceremony, where first Pomp and Circumstance march was the last of several works played by the New Haven Symphony. The great tune had such an effect on those present that Yale repeated it at further ceremonies. It was quickly adopted by other colleges; Princeton (1907), Chicago (1908), Columbia (1913), Vassar (1916) and Rutgers (1918). Now it is almost unthinkable that an American graduation ceremony could occur without it. Indeed, it is sometimes referred to as the ‘Graduation Song’."
Many thanks for an extremely interesting article, pabmusic.:ok:
Makes you want to play it right now.
EdgeleyRob
27-11-11, 21:24
Many thanks for an extremely interesting article, pabmusic.:ok:
Makes you want to play it right now.
Thanks from me too, fascinating stuff. Am I alone in prefering the big tune in no 4 to LOHAG ?.
Thanks from me too, fascinating stuff. Am I alone in prefering the big tune in no 4 to LOHAG ?.
No, Rob - I'm with you :ok:
EdgeleyRob
27-11-11, 21:38
Hairs on the back of the neck music for me!
"... methinks he was just trying to draw attention to himself"
Not something of which one could ever accuse Mandy.:whistle:
See The Bad (Literary) Sex thread :winkeye:
Not something of which one could ever accuse Mandy.:whistle:
See The Bad (Literary) Sex thread :winkeye:
Question: why do you attempt to derail this thread with a typically cheap and irrelevant comment about another matter entirely?
Whatever your reasons, you're one sad old biddy.
I can't think of anything by Elgar that I don't like.
I've never really warmed to 'The Music Makers', but I hope I shall love it one day.
'Gerontius' sends me into ecstatic areas, I'm not really able to confront a live performance, too intense, and I'm not a Roman Catholic!
As for the P&Cs, this is about as good as it gets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfrmDtH1Xpk
But ultimately, I think the 3rd P&C my favourite.
As for the P&Cs, this is about as good as it gets:
:ok: knockout (see my message #9 above)
:ok: knockout (see my message #9 above)
I did, and that's why I was pleased to add my contribution!
MrGongGong
28-11-11, 07:41
'Gerontius' sends me into ecstatic areas, I'm not really able to confront a live performance, too intense, and I'm not a Roman Catholic!
It sends me for a bucket
though I know many people love it (which is fine )
Pilchardman
28-11-11, 07:50
Yes, or no - and why? :)
No, I don't. I'm not a fan of Elgar. I think he's over rated (mostly in Britain).
I do quite like the opening D major section of the march, but not when the famous melody enters. I think it's romanticism at its worst.
MrGongGong
28-11-11, 07:59
No, I don't. I'm not a fan of Elgar. I think he's over rated (mostly in Britain).
I do quite like the opening D major section of the march, but not when the famous melody enters. I think it's romanticism at its worst.
that's not the way to make friends around here :laugh:
(I'm with you though, I do think Elgar is over rated as a composer ......)
Panjandrum
28-11-11, 08:00
It sends me for a bucket
though I know many people love it (which is fine )A case of pearls before swine? :winkeye:
Pilchardman
28-11-11, 08:10
that's not the way to make friends around here :laugh:
(I'm with you though, I do think Elgar is over rated as a composer ......)
:laugh:
I hope nobody takes offence. I'm sure there's lots of stuff I like that people think is dross.
:laugh:
I hope nobody takes offence. I'm sure there's lots of stuff I like that people think is dross.
I certainly take no offence at all - even though I agree with Stravinsky that Elgar is "a supremely great composer of whom the British people should be proud". Elgar was never part of a 'school' or 'movement', which makes him difficult to categorise, but to say he is 'over-rated' is rather dismissive. What does it mean, other than you simply don't enjoy his music? Otherwise, 'over-rated' surely implies that your view is so obviously the right one that you can't understand why anyone could feel differently (Lord Gnome might say "any fool know"), which I doubt is what you intended.
But Elgar has always drawn polarised views. I think it has something to do with the disconcerting feeling of genius that much of the music has - anything less would not raise such controversy. You can talk of Elgar seriously in the same company as Mahler, Strauss, Suk, Szymanovsky, Schmidt and others without embarrassment, while at the same time being defensive about "wider still and wider", or the stink of incense in Gerontius. We don't do this with other composers.
Pilchardman
28-11-11, 09:07
What does it mean, other than you simply don't enjoy his music? Otherwise, 'over-rated' surely implies that your view is so obviously the right one that you can't understand why anyone could feel differently (Lord Gnome might say "any fool know"), which I doubt is what you intended.
What I intended to say is that I view him as a minor composer, not one of great note. I - as I'm sure everyone else does - have a metaphorical ranking into which I place composers, according to what I believe is their import or their talent to move (me). What I don't expect people to do is have the same ranking that I have. (Unless I'm arguing with my brother, in which case he will always, by definition, be Wrong).
MrGongGong
28-11-11, 09:08
Ok
What I mean by "over rated" has little to do with whether I like the music or not
the Elgar enthusiasts often go into great rapture over (in particular !) Gerontius which I find to be pompous, overblown and has a dreadful libretto wallowing in the worst anglo-catholic nonsense. Elgar was a great composer (YES I do mean this) he wrote some great music but the religious fervour of his disciples is a bit excessive.
If one could listen with fresh ears then i'm sure there would be much to enjoy in P&C #1 , however one can't "un-invent" what it has come to represent. For me (and this is IMV ) its similar to so called "dissonant" instrumental music, I hear the dissonance in the same way that you might, but I don't find any "dissonant" instrumental music really unsettling (maybe the opening of Black Angels comes close ?).
Ok
What I mean by "over rated" has little to do with whether I like the music or not
the Elgar enthusiasts often go into great rapture over (in particular !) Gerontius which I find to be pompous, overblown and has a dreadful libretto wallowing in the worst anglo-catholic nonsense. Elgar was a great composer (YES I do mean this) he wrote some great music but the religious fervour of his disciples is a bit excessive.
If one could listen with fresh ears then i'm sure there would be much to enjoy in P&C #1 , however one can't "un-invent" what it has come to represent. For me (and this is IMV ) its similar to so called "dissonant" instrumental music, I hear the dissonance in the same way that you might, but I don't find any "dissonant" instrumental music really unsettling (maybe the opening of Black Angels comes close ?).
Yes, I share similar views of many pieces of music. Gerontius (like anything with a libretto) necessarily suffers from having extra-musical associations. And I do share your dislike of the veneration in which it can be held, which sometimes take attention away from later works (the symphonies and Falstaff, for instance) written when EE's style had 'matured' into Modernism (or whatever -ism you like).
Question: why do you attempt to derail this thread with a typically cheap and irrelevant comment about another matter entirely?
Whatever your reasons, you're one sad old biddy.I was merely pointing out your usual pompous assertion clashing with a later post, Mandy. Keep the toys in the pram dear :ok:
Pilchardman
28-11-11, 09:31
however one can't "un-invent" what it has come to represent.
This is an interesting point. My feeling is that this can't help but colour my reaction to Elgar, however I know very well that I'm able to sweet aside unpleasant associations composers I do admire may have.
What I intended to say is that I view him as a minor composer, not one of great note. I - as I'm sure everyone else does - have a metaphorical ranking into which I place composers, according to what I believe is their import or their talent to move (me). What I don't expect people to do is have the same ranking that I have. (Unless I'm arguing with my brother, in which case he will always, by definition, be Wrong).
I've had metaphorical rankings of composers most of my life. Trouble is, the ranking changes regularly, although composers don't seem to drop out completely. EE has been high up the ranking for nearly half a century, but primarily because the music 'speaks' to me, rather than any attempt to establish its importance. Also because EE is pretty well the only truly self-taught composer to have achieved the heights - which I think is rather wonderful.
Pilchardman
28-11-11, 09:42
primarily because the music 'speaks' to meThat's pretty much what I do.
Pilchardman
28-11-11, 09:59
Sorry, I was called away mid-post. I have a great deal of sympathy for the appeal of Elgar as a self-taught composer achieving acclaim. I just wish it was someone else who had done it!
My ranking also changes. Huge categories of music shift in it too. (I used to think German Opera far outranked Italian Opera, but I'm getting soft in my old age).
However, what hasn't changed for me is the pinnacle. For me the two greatest composers, by head and shoulders above the rest - like twin Suilvens above the Sutherland moors - are Bach and Schoenberg. This is for what they mean to me, but also for what they teach us about composition. Beneath that, of course the rankings shift.
Barbirollians
28-11-11, 10:51
The P & C marches are a long way down my list of favourite Elgar- namely the concertos, the symphonies , Enigma , Sospiri,Elegy, I & Allegro and Serenade for Strings .
Although they have much beautiful music in the them the large oratorios rather leave me cold.
Serial_Apologist
28-11-11, 11:36
Elgar enthusiasts often go into great rapture over (in particular !) Gerontius which I find to be pompous, overblown and has a dreadful libretto wallowing in the worst anglo-catholic nonsense.
Which, in view of Elgar's subsequent religious skepticism, is doubly ironic...
Serial_Apologist
28-11-11, 11:47
Sorry, I was called away mid-post. I have a great deal of sympathy for the appeal of Elgar as a self-taught composer achieving acclaim. I just wish it was someone else who had done it!
Of course there was Havergal Brian, another virtually self-taught and from a working class background.
My ranking also changes. Huge categories of music shift in it too. (I used to think German Opera far outranked Italian Opera, but I'm getting soft in my old age).
As does mine - in my case switching forth and back. Probably an indication of immaturity in my case. But maybe preferable to people who stick with the same old, same old all their lives?
However, what hasn't changed for me is the pinnacle. For me the two greatest composers, by head and shoulders above the rest - like twin Suilvens above the Sutherland moors - are Bach and Schoenberg. This is for what they mean to me, but also for what they teach us about composition. Beneath that, of course the rankings shift.
A man of my own heart in the case of Schoenberg, the great summator and culminator who I still think has not been surpassed; but rather than go back to Bach, whose genius (to me) was very much shaped and circumscribed by his devotion to the Protestant church of the time - an era which, alone, I find difficulty in myself being able to indentify in almost the same way I am unable to identify, spiritually, psychologicaly, politically, with middle class Edwardian England.
S-A
the Elgar enthusiasts often go into great rapture over (in particular !) Gerontius which I find to be pompous, overblown and has a dreadful libretto wallowing in the worst anglo-catholic nonsense. Elgar was a great composer (YES I do mean this) he wrote some great music but the religious fervour of his disciples is a bit excessive.
But that 'anglo-catholic nonsense' is intrinsic to the quality of the music, just as the texts of the 'Messiah', the B minor Mass, or the 'Creation' are to the quality of that music (texts which might be similarly dismissed by those who didn't believe in them). Why do you assume that those who respond to the music of Gerontius share the sentiments of the text, any more than those who respond to the music of those other choral works are necessarily believers, or inspired by 'religious fervour'? One doesn't have to share those sentiments to try to appreciate the music on its own terms. If it's not your cup of tea, fine, but it has attracted the admiration of quite a range of musicians, from Strauss to Britten (and had more success initially in Germany than in Britain where ironically it encountered resistance in Anglican circles to its Anglo-Catholicism).
Colonel Danby
28-11-11, 12:11
We always get to sing LOHAG at the Last Night of the Proms, and it's a splendid version for choir, even it if doesn't have any real meaning anymore. But my favourite must be No 4, even if the comparisons with 'Tosca' are obvious: I'm not sure which came first, the Puccini or Elgar...a great tune anyway.
Colonel Danby
28-11-11, 12:35
:ok: Precisely, Barb. A disc no-one who likes Elgar should be without!
I've got the Barbirolli 'Enigma' on LP but it's only got the 'Cockaigne' Overture tacked on to the end: perhaps a different recording, as I'm sure he did it at least twice. Nevertheless a mandatory purchase for all discerning Elgarians (EMI ASD 548).
Serial_Apologist
28-11-11, 12:47
But that 'anglo-catholic nonsense' is intrinsic to the quality of the music, just as the texts of the 'Messiah', the B minor Mass, or the 'Creation' are to the quality of that music (texts which might be similarly dismissed by those who didn't believe in them). Why do you assume that those who respond to the music of Gerontius share the sentiments of the text, any more than those who respond to the music of those other choral works are necessarily believers, or inspired by 'religious fervour'? One doesn't have to share those sentiments to try to appreciate the music on its own terms. If it's not your cup of tea, fine, but it has attracted the admiration of quite a range of musicians, from Strauss to Britten (and had more success initially in Germany than in Britain where ironically it encountered resistance in Anglican circles to its Anglo-Catholicism).
I think I understand what you're saying, aeolium, but I don't reel it's my business to extrapolate one element of any particular piece of music from the rest of it for purposes of appredciating the music on its own terms. What does one mean by "the music on its own terms"? Those terms are surely as much defined - in this instance - by the libretto as by the music. The two being mutually inextricable. I for one could just about take Part 1 of "Gerontius" when I first heard this work in its entirety; it was speedily downhill from that point on for me, I'm afraid; the wisdom of hindsight then spoilt it for the beginning of the narrative, too since, as said so often by people I agree with on here, you can't extrapolate the excerpt from the context and make it meaningful other than for purposes of manipulation. And nor can one extrapolate the text. Well, I can't!
I don't reel it's my business to extrapolate one element of any particular piece of music from the rest of it for purposes of appredciating the music on its own terms. What does one mean by "the music on its own terms"? Those terms are surely as much defined - in this instance - by the libretto as by the music. The two being mutually inextricable.
I quite agree, S_A - that was what I was trying to say, that the music could not be separated from the text of a choral work. By 'on its own terms' I meant appreciating the place of the text (whether or not you think it is 'nonsense') within the musical work, and the inspiration it provided to the composer - and that would be as true for Gerontius as for many other major choral works. Are you saying that the work failed for you because the poor quality of the text was reflected in the music for part 2? What do you mean by the 'wisdom of hindsight' here?
barber olly
28-11-11, 13:06
Yes, the Enigma and P & C Marches were issued together (about 1976?) on a small record label that I can't remember. DG must have later acquired the recordings.
It came out on Contour, as did also RPO Dorati Beethoven 5. Both subsequently appeared on DG. The Del Mar Guildford recording featured organ and a lovely echo.
MrGongGong
28-11-11, 13:14
But that 'anglo-catholic nonsense' is intrinsic to the quality of the music, just as the texts of the 'Messiah', the B minor Mass, or the 'Creation' are to the quality of that music (texts which might be similarly dismissed by those who didn't believe in them). Why do you assume that those who respond to the music of Gerontius share the sentiments of the text, any more than those who respond to the music of those other choral works are necessarily believers, or inspired by 'religious fervour'? One doesn't have to share those sentiments to try to appreciate the music on its own terms. If it's not your cup of tea, fine, but it has attracted the admiration of quite a range of musicians, from Strauss to Britten (and had more success initially in Germany than in Britain where ironically it encountered resistance in Anglican circles to its Anglo-Catholicism).
Surely what you say here is a contradiction ?
If the Text is "intrinsic" then you are also saying that you can ignore it ????
I don't believe that you have to be a believer to appreciate the B Minor mass , I don't believe in god (or even God) but think that there is plenty of sublime religious music ..........
all I said really was that (maybe UNLIKE the B Minor Mass) I find the text of Gerontius gets completely in the way of the music.
If "it's terms " include the "intrinsic" text then that surely is part of it ?
I'm not a Satanist but enjoy the music of Gorgoroth :whistle:
I'm sure many great musicians love it etc etc
Surely what you say here is a contradiction ?
If the Text is "intrinsic" then you are also saying that you can ignore it ????
No, I am saying the opposite - that it is inextricably linked to the music. But I don't think that then you can say 'it completely gets in the way of the music'. It is part of the music and you cannot dissociate it.
MrGongGong
28-11-11, 13:26
So does that apply to the sentiments of the text ?
I can listen to the Mass without believing a word of it , quite happily
If I take part in a performance of The Great Learning do I have to embrace revolutionary socialism ?
So does that apply to the sentiments of the text ?
No - why don't you read what I wrote a few messages back? "One doesn't have to share those sentiments to try to appreciate the music on its own terms."
But your strong reaction to the text of the work - and also to the text of LOHAG - suggests that while you are able to listen to the B Minor Mass without believing a word of it, you are not so dispassionate about the text of Gerontius (which you could also listen to without believing a word of it).
MrGongGong
28-11-11, 13:36
It's either "intrinsic" or it's not
if the text (and the meaning of the text) is intrinsic then one can't ignore it
it doesn't make it "bad"music though
The text is intrinsic and you can't ignore it, but you don't have to share its sentiments to appreciate the work as a whole.
Serial_Apologist
28-11-11, 13:56
I quite agree, S_A - that was what I was trying to say, that the music could not be separated from the text of a choral work. By 'on its own terms' I meant appreciating the place of the text (whether or not you think it is 'nonsense') within the musical work, and the inspiration it provided to the composer - and that would be as true for Gerontius as for many other major choral works. Are you saying that the work failed for you because the poor quality of the text was reflected in the music for part 2? What do you mean by the 'wisdom of hindsight' here?
Sorry for the delay in responding, aeolium - got a bit diverted by the "Lento" thread, ahem!
Actually, you have answsered for me by using virtualy the same words I would have used in your own replay to Mr GG in your message 60. :smiley: Please ignore my poor use of the expression "with the wisdom of hindsight", which was just a clumsy way of saying that whatever sympathies I felt towards "Gerontius" at the end of Part 1, on that first occasion of listening, had evaporated by the time I had struggled through the remainder of the work.
It came out on Contour, as did also RPO Dorati Beethoven 5. Both subsequently appeared on DG. The Del Mar Guildford recording featured organ and a lovely echo.
Thank you, so it did.
secondfiddle
28-11-11, 16:17
Totally agree with Amateur that Norman Del Mar deserves a post of his own. He is another of those conductors whose reputation has faded because he was never given a major orchestra and was not invited to record nearly often enough. He was superb with large forces, such as Schonberg's Gurrelider, Delius's Mass of Life (his BBC performance fortunately was once released on Intaglio and should be re-issued), Mahler (I remember wonderful performances he gave of the symphonies in the 60s and 70s, especially Nos. 3 and 6), Bantock's Omar Khayyam, Vaughan Williams' Sancta Civitas and Five Tudor Portraits, Bax, . . . the list could go on. I have many off-air recordings of him conducting works he was never to record commercially. In fact just by chance while seeing this post I was playing Balakirev's First Symphony (BBC Scottish SO, 1981), one of many works that Del Mar would have become acquainted with while playing in the RPO under Beecham. He was superb in British music and someone I rate alongside Boult. It would be wonderful if some of his Proms performances could be resurrected on CD.
Chris Newman
28-11-11, 16:27
As a non-believer I find it far easier to listen to and love religious music, whether Protestant or Catholic, whilst putting aside the sentiment of the words. That includes lots (I nearly wrote masses:smiley:) of Bach, Elgar, Handel, Janacek. Frank Martin etc. On the other hand the words of LOHAG annoy me for their jingoism. I find it easier to make allowance for most people's religious beliefs than I do do for antisocial politics.
Serial_Apologist
28-11-11, 16:42
As a non-believer I find it far easier to listen to and love religious music, whether Protestant or Catholic, whilst putting aside the sentiment of the words. That includes lots (I nearly wrote masses:smiley:) of Bach, Elgar, Handel, Janacek. Frank Martin etc. On the other hand the words of LOHAG annoy me for their jingoism. I find it easier to make allowance for most people's religious beliefs than I do do for antisocial politics.
Much the same with me too, Chris. I have a fondness for Faure's Requiem, and I find the choral and orchestral works of Lili Boulanger extremely moving, given her circumstances.
The text is intrinsic and you can't ignore it, but you don't have to share its sentiments to appreciate the work as a whole.
Exactly. (Though I have to admit a bit of a guilty pleasure for Newman's poem. :blush: )
Totally agree with Amateur that Norman Del Mar deserves a post of his own. He is another of those conductors whose reputation has faded because he was never given a major orchestra and was not invited to record nearly often enough. He was superb with large forces, such as Schonberg's Gurrelider, Delius's Mass of Life (his BBC performance fortunately was once released on Intaglio and should be re-issued), Mahler (I remember wonderful performances he gave of the symphonies in the 60s and 70s, especially Nos. 3 and 6), Bantock's Omar Khayyam, Vaughan Williams' Sancta Civitas and Five Tudor Portraits, Bax, . . . the list could go on. I have many off-air recordings of him conducting works he was never to record commercially. In fact just by chance while seeing this post I was playing Balakirev's First Symphony (BBC Scottish SO, 1981), one of many works that Del Mar would have become acquainted with while playing in the RPO under Beecham. He was superb in British music and someone I rate alongside Boult. It would be wonderful if some of his Proms performances could be resurrected on CD.Excellent stuff, secondfiddle :ok:
Why don't you repeat this as the first post of a new Maestro Del Mar thread & ask other board members for their views & memories?
When I did this for Sir Charles Groves a few months ago, some fascinating stuff was contributed :ok::biggrin:
http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?2895-Sir-Charles-Groves&highlight=Charles+Groves
As a non-believer I find it far easier to listen to and love religious music, whether Protestant or Catholic, whilst putting aside the sentiment of the words. That includes lots (I nearly wrote masses:smiley:) of Bach, Elgar, Handel, Janacek. Frank Martin etc. On the other hand the words of LOHAG annoy me for their jingoism. I find it easier to make allowance for most people's religious beliefs than I do do for antisocial politics.
I quite agree. There is a related point, which is that perhaps it was non-believers (or at least agnostics) who found it easier to tackle religious subjects without becoming pious. I'm pretty sure Elgar was like this; whatever he professed at different times, I get the feeling he was more interested in the intellectual side of religious subjects, rather than being moved by a profound belief. This is certainly true of The Apostles and The Kingdom, where the intellectual exercise was that of assembling the librettos. But it's also true of Gerontius, where the thing was the incorporation of Wagnerian music-drama to create something new in British choral music.
Totally agree with Amateur that Norman Del Mar deserves a post of his own. He is another of those conductors whose reputation has faded because he was never given a major orchestra and was not invited to record nearly often enough. He was superb with large forces, such as Schonberg's Gurrelider, Delius's Mass of Life (his BBC performance fortunately was once released on Intaglio and should be re-issued), Mahler (I remember wonderful performances he gave of the symphonies in the 60s and 70s, especially Nos. 3 and 6), Bantock's Omar Khayyam, Vaughan Williams' Sancta Civitas and Five Tudor Portraits, Bax, . . . the list could go on. I have many off-air recordings of him conducting works he was never to record commercially. In fact just by chance while seeing this post I was playing Balakirev's First Symphony (BBC Scottish SO, 1981), one of many works that Del Mar would have become acquainted with while playing in the RPO under Beecham. He was superb in British music and someone I rate alongside Boult. It would be wonderful if some of his Proms performances could be resurrected on CD.
Truly an excellent post. Norman del Mar was a fine conductor, who was a genuinely nice man. He also wrote about music very well.
Brassbandmaestro
28-11-11, 17:01
Why is it that record companies dont recognise conductors, like Norman Del Mar, as the way they did Sir Adrian Boult?
Pilchardman
28-11-11, 17:14
I don't believe that you have to be a believer to appreciate the B Minor mass , I don't believe in god (or even God) but think that there is plenty of sublime religious music ..........
Exactly.
Similarly I don't believe in aristocratic privilege, but realise that a lot of music was written for wealthy patrons.
Why is it that record companies dont recognise conductors, like Norman Del Mar, as the way they did Sir Adrian Boult?
Possibly the record companies didn't consider him as good a conductor as Sir Adrian Boult or that, with no orchestra of his own, he had a lower public profile and his records wouldn't sell. This may sound unjust to his admirerd but the record companies had to make a profit. To take a different example, an EMI (?) executive said of Rudolf Kempe ' The British public adore him but won't buy his records'
Thanks from me too, fascinating stuff. Am I alone in prefering the big tune in no 4 to LOHAG ?.
A bit late in the thread but I too much prefer No 4 to LoHG. Always have, but sealed in my memory after doing my bit on a parade in honour of Montgomery. No 4 was played during his inspection.
Perhaps I should try for "Your Call" :laugh: - and pigs might do the flypast too:smiley:
Vile Consort
30-11-11, 02:24
...a dreadful libretto wallowing in the worst anglo-catholic nonsense. ...
Roman Catholic, surely?
I was merely pointing out your usual pompous assertion clashing with a later post, Mandy. Keep the toys in the pram dear :ok:
Neither a pompous assertion, nor a true accusation. Physician, heal thyself. Your infantile behaviour is sad and pathetic, especially in someone of your...ahem...great age. :whistle:
Anyway....Del Mar: I always think of him in tandem with Sir Charles Groves as a conductor who covered much the same repertoire as several more famous conductors, who staked their claims earlier. No reflection on him, or his abilities.
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