View Full Version : Not good pieces by good composers
verismissimo
22-01-12, 13:43
Prompted by Vladimir Jurowski's current Prokofiev fest.
As a start:
Beethoven's Battle Symphony
Tchaikovsky's 3rd Piano Concerto.
Others?
Richard Strauss: Festmusik der Stadt Wien
Richard Strauss: Festmusik der Stadt Wien
Which is an excellent piece compared with his Festliches Präludium op.61 :whistle: :smiley:
Btw. Beethoven's cantata Der glorreiche Augenblick op.136 is not a brilliant work either, not by chance composed for the Vienna Congress as was Wellington's Victory.
Which is an excellent piece compared with his Festliches Präludium op.61 :whistle: :smiley:
So true!
Richard Strauss: Festmusik der Stadt Wien
Oh I love that!
Agreed that Festliches Präludium op.61 is an absolute dog's breakfast though :sadface: And old Richard couldn't write choral music to save his life, I think.
Borrowing from another thread: the 'Reformation' Symphony and 'Elijah' by Mendelssohn qualify, in my book :whistle:
MrGongGong
22-01-12, 14:45
'Elijah' by Mendelssohn
Couldn't agree more
and the dreadful Beethoven "Battle Symphony"
(and Gerontius but I don't want to go on about that now do I ........:whistle:)
(and Gerontius but I don't want to go on about that now do I ........:whistle:)
No you don't :grr:
PS: drrrrring drrrrrrrrring... it's for you-houuu! :winkeye:
Eine Alpensinfonie
22-01-12, 15:43
(and Gerontius but I don't want to go on about that now do I ........:whistle:)
Yes you do. It's your idee fixe. :biggrin:
I suppose to be fair on the Battle Symphony, it was written to be played by a machine, rather like the precurser of today's electronic keyboards.
Il Grande Inquisitor
22-01-12, 15:49
And old Richard couldn't write choral music to save his life, I think.
Caliban, please do have a listen to his a cappella work 'Der Abend': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSVbiPqXqtc
It's a vocal painting of dusk in mythological times leading into ‘fragrant night’ as Phoebus descends from his chariot. It's written in 16 parts and begins with an ethereal note on the first syllable of the word ‘strahlender’, a G held by the first three soprano parts, in turn, for 20 bars, creating an warm, evening glow.
Caliban, please do have a listen to his a cappella work 'Der Abend': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSVbiPqXqtc
It's a vocal painting of dusk in mythological times leading into ‘fragrant night’ as Phoebus descends from his chariot. It's written in 16 parts and begins with an ethereal note on the first syllable of the word ‘strahlender’, a G held by the first three soprano parts, in turn, for 20 bars, creating an warm, evening glow.
Der Abend (op.34) as well as the Deutsche Motette (op.62, unbelievable but true: contemporary with the Präludium !) are just two examples of Richard Strauss' ability to write (in both cases 16 part) a capella choral music.
Chris Newman
22-01-12, 16:29
I agree absolutely with Caliban about the Reformation Symphony and Elijah. I have tried over many years to find what people see in the symphony. His main theme may have been his tribute to Schubert and his Great C Major Symphony but comes across as a monstrous jokey version suitable for a Hoffnung Concert. There are some lovely moments in Elijah but the sum of the dirgey bits squashes them flat.
Gerontius is a work of great beauty and genius. As with much religious music at its best, whilst it is playing, it makes me wish I was too.
1812 needs to be played rather than treated as a warhorse. The celebrated Fistoulari had twice failed to convince me as a teenager it was good as he raced through it at Victor Hochauser "Tchaikovsky Nights" at the Albert Hall. Years later I was convinced first by Boris Brott (There's a rave from the grave! He is still going in the Uat one of these same nights. I secretly thought I had grown out of them but a good friend meant well and insisted on taking me as a birthday present. Brott conducted it with soul, expression and mostly slowly. My Silvestri recording comes close to it. I know it can work with or without the vast extra forces that impresarios like to add.
Suffolkcoastal
22-01-12, 16:49
I don't think that the main theme of the Reformation symphony could have been a tribute to Schubert's 9th as the Reformation was composed in 1830 and Mendelssohn didn't know the Schubert until Schumann drew his attention to it in 1838.
I could really 'put the cat among the pidgeons' here and say Beethoven's 6th. Also Britten's The Golden Vanity, it really is cringeworthy, especially that horrid little march at the start. Even my favourite composer RVW composed one really bad work IMO 'The Poisoned Kiss'. Others would include Shostakovich's 12th Symphony and the Tchaikovsky Piano Sonatas.
I Also Britten's The Golden Vanity, it really is cringeworthy, especially that horrid little march at the start..
That could be said of Let's make an opera/The Little Sweep too - largely due to the libretto (and the dated diction in BB's recording. It's too dated to be enjoyed as authentically correct.) The LMAO prelude is best ditched, but there's some good music in the opera itself - so I would not suggest it as a contender for "not good pieces".
EdgeleyRob
22-01-12, 16:58
Even my favourite composer RVW composed one really bad work IMO 'The Poisoned Kiss'.
RVW is also my favourite composer but I can't be doing with that harmonica romance thingy so I'll nominate that particular piece. BTW there is some wonderful music in 'The Poisoned Kiss' IMO.
And why does my beloved Mendelssohn get such a raw deal on here?, his music seems to be getting slated on nearly every thread.:sadface:
At least no-one has nominated BB's Owen Wingrave - a much-under-rated piece which is too often dismissed as a low-point of his last decade.
Eine Alpensinfonie
22-01-12, 17:06
Others would include Shostakovich's 12th Symphony and the Tchaikovsky Piano Sonatas. Tchaikovsky's Op 37 Piano Sonata is a strange work with many similarities to the 4th Symphony. I orchestrated this for a 3rd party and it made me wonder why Tchaikovsky didn't do so himself. Had he done so, the work would probably have been a highly successful shortish symphony. As it stands, few people are even aware of it.
Suffolkcoastal
22-01-12, 17:14
I think that is half the problem with the Op37 sonata EA, pianistically it just doesn't come off at all. Another work I could add would be Weber's 2nd Symphony, the 1st is a very enjoyable and imaginative work, but the 2nd is largely imitation Mozart and the tiny last two movements make a very unsatisfactory balance.
Panjandrum
22-01-12, 17:16
The LMAO prelude is best ditched, but there's some good music in the opera itself - so I would not suggest it as a contender for "not good pieces".I parsed that as an internet acronym: "Laughing my A*** Off". Oh well. :whistle:
Serial_Apologist
22-01-12, 17:37
Tallis - Spem In Alium
J S Bach - Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring
Beethoven - the Scherzo and the Finale: Symphony No 7
Schubert - Symphony No 9
Berlioz - Harold en Italie; Nuits D'Ete
Verdi - everything
Liszt - Tasso
Dukas - Symphony
Roussel - Symphony No 1
Sibelius - Finlandia
R Strauss - Ein Heldenleben; Sinfonia Domestica
Elgar - Sea Pictures
Bax - Symphony No 4
Schoenberg - Pelleas und Melisande
Stravinsky - Persephone; Fairy's Kiss; Symphony in C
Milhaud - Le Boeuf sur le Twat
Prokofiev - The Salute
Shostakovitch - Song of the Forests; Festival Overture
Khachaturian - Spartacus
Barber - Adagio for Strings
Menotti - Amahl and the Night Visitors
Messiaen - Turangalila Symphony
Britten - St Nicholas
Tippett - New Year; The Ice Break; Symphony No 3
Bernstein - everything except West Side Story
Zappa - 200 Motels
Birtwistle - The Minotaur
Reich - everything after Clapping Music
Part - Fratres
Tavener - everything after In Alium
Gorecki - Symphony of Sorrowful Songs
Penderecki - Symphony No 3
C'mon S_A, you cannot be serious (completely) :winkeye:
MrGongGong
22-01-12, 18:09
C'mon S_A, you cannot be serious (completely) :winkeye:
Surely not Turangalila a work of genius IMV
but every Glass opera EXCEPT Einstein ........... yes
Serial_Apologist
22-01-12, 18:12
Surely not Turangalila a work of genius IMV
but every Glass opera EXCEPT Einstein ........... yes
Flip Glass isn't in my Good Composers category
Eine Alpensinfonie
22-01-12, 18:42
Verdi - everything
This suggests you don't think Verdi's a good composer at all, so he shouldn't be included, surely?
Serial_Apologist
22-01-12, 18:52
This suggests you don't think Verdi's a good composer at all, so he shouldn't be included, surely?
He is generally considered good, but following my Msg23, fair point, EA!
Serial_Apologist
22-01-12, 18:54
C'mon S_A, you cannot be serious (completely) :winkeye:
There's no accounting for tastes, Roehr :smiley:
MrGongGong
22-01-12, 19:14
There's no accounting for tastes, Roehr :smiley:
What has "taste" got to do with whether music is any good or not ?
often very little IMV
I'm not a great fan of Johnny Cash BUT he was a truly great musician (IMV of course !)
Tallis - Spem In Alium
J S Bach - Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring
Beethoven - the Scherzo and the Finale: Symphony No 7
Schubert - Symphony No 9
Berlioz - Harold en Italie; Nuits D'Ete
Verdi - everything
Liszt - Tasso
Dukas - Symphony
Roussel - Symphony No 1
Sibelius - Finlandia
R Strauss - Ein Heldenleben; Sinfonia Domestica
Elgar - Sea Pictures
Bax - Symphony No 4
Schoenberg - Pelleas und Melisande
Stravinsky - Persephone; Fairy's Kiss; Symphony in C
Milhaud - Le Boeuf sur le Twat
Prokofiev - The Salute
Shostakovitch - Song of the Forests; Festival Overture
Khachaturian - Spartacus
Barber - Adagio for Strings
Menotti - Amahl and the Night Visitors
Messiaen - Turangalila Symphony
Britten - St Nicholas
Tippett - New Year; The Ice Break; Symphony No 3
Bernstein - everything except West Side Story
Zappa - 200 Motels
Birtwistle - The Minotaur
Reich - everything after Clapping Music
Part - Fratres
Tavener - everything after In Alium
Gorecki - Symphony of Sorrowful Songs
Penderecki - Symphony No 3
What an extraordinary selection. There are so many entries on your list that I cannot agree with, but just to take a few- Beethoven 7- that whirlwind finale, like an explosion of energy? It practically gets me leaping around the room in joy every time I hear it. The Barber Adagio is surely just a victim of overexposure- it's magnificent music. Ein Heldenleben- sorry, that wonderful "Hero's Companion" section contains some of the most beautiful music I can imagine. And everything by Bernstein except West Side Story?- you cannot be serious. In fact, I'm sure you aren't. This list is a wind-up, isn't it? :laugh:
I do agree about Verdi though......:whistle:
And I was considering nominating 4"33, by John Cage, except that:-
a) John Cage was not a good composer, and
b) 4"33 is not a piece of music.
MrGongGong
22-01-12, 20:18
And I was considering nominating 4"33, by John Cage, except that:-
a) John Cage was not a good composer, and
b) 4"33 is not a piece of music.
:laugh::yawn:
Thank you so much for your learned advice
and from now on I will be submitting all my compositions to the P test to make sure that they ARE music :whistle:
Milhaud - Le Boeuf sur le Twat
Dirty boy !!
jayne lee wilson
22-01-12, 20:43
Er - sorry, what!? Schubert...?!
The 1st movement of Mendelssohn's 5th is based on the famous "Dresden Amen" (well-known from Schumann's 3rd and Parsifal - Wagner modelled his version on Mendelssohn's). The main allegro is simply a speeded-up version of the closely-related theme from the introduction - and very convincing and enjoyable I find it. The richness of invention, the proliferation of motivic ideas and developments make it closer to Beethoven than to anything else, as were FMB's early string quartets.
After the joyously fleet-footed (and melodically memorable!) scherzo (a musical form Mendelssohn almost made his own, like Brahms' intermezzi) there's one of his most intense, and typically compressed, slow movements where listeners often mistake brevity for lack of depth. (vide Waldstein sonata and Triple Concerto...)
The finale is a remarkably original structure based on the Lutheran chorale "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" which itself is clearly a member of the same thematic family as the first movement's principal ideas!
The whole symphony is rich in thematic cross-reference and motivic interrelations, which shouldn't surprise anyone who knows FMB's early quartets; bear in mind the "Symphony no.5" is an actually an early work, written when he was 20!
All of which mightn't matter if it weren't also tunefully and harmonically memorable - it's often humming around my head somewhere...
Chris and Caliban - get Colin Davis's Dresden State recording and see if you change your mind(s). You'll get a lovely No.3 into the bargain...
I agree absolutely with Caliban about the Reformation Symphony and Elijah. I have tried over many years to find what people see in the symphony. His main theme may have been his tribute to Schubert and his Great C Major Symphony but comes across as a monstrous jokey version suitable for a Hoffnung Concert. There are some lovely moments in Elijah but the sum of the dirgey bits squashes them flat.
Gerontius is a work of great beauty and genius. As with much religious music at its best, whilst it is playing, it makes me wish I was too.
1812 needs to be played rather than treated as a warhorse. The celebrated Fistoulari had twice failed to convince me as a teenager it was good as he raced through it at Victor Hochauser "Tchaikovsky Nights" at the Albert Hall. Years later I was convinced first by Boris Brott (There's a rave from the grave! He is still going in the Uat one of these same nights. I secretly thought I had grown out of them but a good friend meant well and insisted on taking me as a birthday present. Brott conducted it with soul, expression and mostly slowly. My Silvestri recording comes close to it. I know it can work with or without the vast extra forces that impresarios like to add.
HighlandDougie
22-01-12, 20:58
I'm with JLW on the Reformation - if played with conviction (Munch, Abbado, Dohnanyi, Flor ..... - don't know the Davis but can't imagine it being anything other than excellent).
I realise that there's always a temptation to go in for this sort of post in that it's always good fun to parade one's prejudices (oh, how I long to say the entire oeuvres of the two Richards - Strauss and Wagner - but that would be to concede that the former was a good composer, plus le tout J S Bach etc etc) but I'm not sure that it does much other than to get other people harrumphing away ("What? Verdi?" - hmm, thinking about it, make that Puccini, guv) but then I suspect I'm just being a boring old f**t by attempting to preach reasonableness, rather than sweeping generalisations
I'm with JLW on the Reformation - if played with conviction (Munch, Abbado, Dohnanyi, Flor ..... - don't know the Davis but can't imagine it being anything other than excellent).
I realise that there's always a temptation to go in for this sort of post in that it's always good fun to parade one's prejudices (oh, how I long to say the entire oeuvres of the two Richards - Strauss and Wagner - but that would be to concede that the former was a good composer, plus le tout J S Bach etc etc) but I'm not sure that it does much other than to get other people harrumphing away ("What? Verdi?" - hmm, thinking about it, make that Puccini, guv) but then I suspect I'm just being a boring old f**t by attempting to preach reasonableness, rather than sweeping generalisations
Love the Reformation:
LSO Abbado
BRSO Ashkenazy
NYPO Bernstein
IPO Bernstein
DSO Davis C
CPO Delogu
VPO Dohnanyi
VPO Eliot Gardiner
LPO Haitink
BPO Karajan
ECO Leppard
MadridSO Maag
BPO Maazel
LGO Masur
BSO Munch
NPO Muti
DetSO Paray
CinSO Rudolf
NPO Sawallisch
PO Weller
Good composers not good works
Ravel Bolero
Beethoven Sym 9 (movt 4)
Britten Peter Grimes (other than Sea Interludes & Passacaglia)
Britten Other operas
Mary Chambers
22-01-12, 21:37
Good composers not good works
Britten Peter Grimes (other than Sea Interludes & Passacaglia)
Britten Other operas
Now it's just getting silly :smiley:
EdgeleyRob
22-01-12, 21:42
And why does my beloved Mendelssohn get such a raw deal on here?, his music seems to be getting slated on nearly every thread.:sadface:
I'm with JLW on the Reformation - if played with conviction
The 1st movement of Mendelssohn's 5th is based on the famous "Dresden Amen" (well-known from Schumann's 3rd and Parsifal - Wagner modelled his version on Mendelssohn's). The main allegro is simply a speeded-up version of the closely-related theme from the introduction - and very convincing and enjoyable I find it. The richness of invention, the proliferation of motivic ideas and developments make it closer to Beethoven than to anything else, as were FMB's early string quartets.
After the joyously fleet-footed (and melodically memorable!) scherzo (a musical form Mendelssohn almost made his own, like Brahms' intermezzi) there's one of his most intense, and typically compressed, slow movements where listeners often mistake brevity for lack of depth. (vide Waldstein sonata and Triple Concerto...)
The finale is a remarkably original structure based on the Lutheran chorale "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" which itself is clearly a member of the same thematic family as the first movement's principal ideas!
The whole symphony is rich in thematic cross-reference and motivic interrelations, which shouldn't surprise anyone who knows FMB's early quartets; bear in mind the "Symphony no.5" is an actually an early work, written when he was 20!
All of which mightn't matter if it weren't also tunefully and harmonically memorable - it's often humming around my head somewhere...
Love the Reformation:
Ah, I am not alone :smiley:
Now it's just getting silly :smiley:
No Britten a great writer of Orchestral music but his operas?
ferneyhoughgeliebte
22-01-12, 22:09
Y'see what happens?!
It's like the "I so regret hearing ... " thread. After about four responses it just deteriorates into "I don't like this piece/composer" until somebody says that Bach "couldn't really compose" at which point everybody realizes how silly everyone else is being and then the Thread stops. For a couple of weeks. Then somebody else starts it all over again with a "I like Beethoven, but he couldn't really write for 'cello, could he?" AND IT ALL STARTS AGAIN!!!! :grr:
No Britten a great writer of Orchestral music but his operas?
I thought it was the other way around!
I thought it was the other way around!
Well there you go - it's all a question of what the ear communicates to the brain!
Now it's just getting silly :smiley:
:ok:
It's like the "I so regret hearing ... " thread. After about four responses it just deteriorates into "I don't like this piece/composer" until somebody says that Bach "couldn't really compose" at which point everybody realizes how silly everyone else is being and then the Thread stops. For a couple of weeks. Then somebody else starts it all over again with a "I like Beethoven, but he couldn't really write for 'cello, could he?" AND IT ALL STARTS AGAIN!!!! :grr:
:ok:
Y'see what happens?!
It's like the "I so regret hearing ... " thread. After about four responses it just deteriorates into "I don't like this piece/composer" until somebody says that Bach "couldn't really compose" at which point everybody realizes how silly everyone else is being and then the Thread stops. For a couple of weeks. Then somebody else starts it all over again with a "I like Beethoven, but he couldn't really write for 'cello, could he?" AND IT ALL STARTS AGAIN!!!! :grr:
:ok:
It seems for many an impossibillity to understand the difference between I personally don't like such and such a piece and this piece is lacking a quality which other works in the composer's output do possess. Which is a pity, as it means that many are unable to understand the concept of quality in (classical) music independently from their own prejudices.:sadface:
Serial_Apologist
22-01-12, 23:52
Dirty boy !!
Knew you'd spot it, Cali!
LeMartinPecheur
23-01-12, 00:26
Can I suggest Brahms as the composer who most obviously failed to publish sub-standard works? If you look down his list of opus numbers, the only works that don't seem to have stayed in the repertoire are just those where the whole repertoire has ceased to command interest, such as pieces for women's choir. Where is the duff Brahms orchestral, chamber or piano work?
...unless of course you are Benjamin Britten....and even he played the Liebeslieder Waltzes.
Oh I love that! [Festmusik der Stadt Wien]
Agreed that Festliches Präludium op.61 is an absolute dog's breakfast though :sadface: And old Richard couldn't write choral music to save his life, I think.
Oh dear! The trouble with this thread is that I'm temperamentally unsuited to dismissing any music - it requires real effort. So I played through the Festmusik again (first time for 20 years I suspect) and it's not half bad. I take back what I said (though not about the Festliches Präludium, which is still dire!).
Oh dear! The trouble with this thread is that I'm temperamentally unsuited to dismissing any music - it requires real effort. So I played through the Festmusik again (first time for 20 years I suspect) and it's not half bad. I take back what I said (though not about the Festliches Präludium, which is still dire!).
:hug:
MrGongGong
23-01-12, 07:54
I wonder what the "list" would be if one didn't conflate personal taste with quality ?
I wonder what the "list" would be if one didn't conflate personal taste with quality ?
You have a very good point, though it might be risky to take a relativist view throughout and suggest that all music is equally good or bad, being distinguished only by individual taste. I suspect most people (at least, those experienced in 'classical' music) can sense that some pieces show signs of tiredness, of routine, of 'run-of -the-mill', of 'going through the motions', or whatever. They were often written in a hurry, for a specific occasion. Many of the pieces named fall into this category (Wellington's Victory, for instance). I think there are also pieces where the composer has been just a bit too earnest (Reformation Symphony perhaps), or maybe didn't appreciate his own limitations (not common with 'good' composers, of course).
A good example might be Elgar's Sea Pictures. This was a commission for the Norwich Festival of 1899, and Elgar fitted its composition around the preparations for the first performance of the Enigma (June 99), the subsequent revision of the end of that work (for a performance in September), as well as moving house. There are five songs, of which 1, 2 and 4 are top-drawer Elgar. The last song is OK, and very Elgarian, but the themes are not quite as inspired. And song 3 (Sabbath Morning at Sea) starts and ends promisingly, but flags terribly in between - it just seems pious Victorian 'religious' writing. Of course the whole is wonderfully scored, but it does betray its hurried birth.
Norfolk Born
23-01-12, 09:24
Meanwhile, back in the land of straightforward answers: I've always thought that Tchaikowsky's 3rd Symphony has been justly neglected, and I don't rate the 'Manfred' that highly, either. Both make far too much of a limited range of musical ideas.
verismissimo
23-01-12, 09:25
Advice to anyone else who plans to start a thread like this one:
Simply light the blue touch paper and stand well clear.
And don't assume that folk will read and/or understand the premise.
Thanks to Roehre for his valiant attempt to clarify this one.
A good example might be Elgar's Sea Pictures. This was a commission for the Norwich Festival of 1899, and Elgar fitted its composition around the preparations for the first performance of the Enigma (June 99), the subsequent revision of the end of that work (for a performance in September), as well as moving house. There are five songs, of which 1, 2 and 4 are top-drawer Elgar. The last song is OK, and very Elgarian, but the themes are not quite as inspired. And song 3 (Sabbath Morning at Sea) starts and ends promisingly, but flags terribly in between - it just seems pious Victorian 'religious' writing. Of course the whole is wonderfully scored, but it does betray its hurried birth.
And at the end of the day it is the interpretation that delivers it. For my ears most recordings of Sea Pictures the soloist displays too much vibrato, or am I wrong and it is implicit in Elgar's writing.
And at the end of the day it is the interpretation that delivers it. For my ears most recordings of Sea Pictures the soloist displays too much vibrato, or am I wrong and it is implicit in Elgar's writing.
Quite agree. I don't think the vibrato is especially implicit, although it's probably nearer to what Elgar had in mind. One thing about Sea Pictures is that it's stated to be for contralto (Clara Butt gave the premiere, dressed as a mermaid) but it lies more comfortably for mezzo-soprano. Perhaps this means that many contraltos strain a little, and that has an effect on vibrato. But I'm no singer.
Serial_Apologist
23-01-12, 11:41
(Clara Butt gave the premiere, dressed as a mermaid)
:ok::ok::ok:
:yikes: :laugh:
And why does my beloved Mendelssohn get such a raw deal on here?, his music seems to be getting slated on nearly every thread.:sadface:
I actually think that Mendelssohn takes quite a lot of listening to before one fully appreciates how great he was. Add to that that some of his more popular works (Violin Concerto and 'Italian' Symphony, for example) seem superficially quite light and people don't always give him a chance. If they did then they would see the depth behind the surface charm and elegance.
MrGongGong
23-01-12, 12:13
Meanwhile, back in the land of straightforward answers:
By which I understand to mean .......... music wot I don't like
which is not the same as , music that isn't "good" by a "good" composer
I actually think that Mendelssohn takes quite a lot of listening to before one fully appreciates how great he was. Add to that that some of his more popular works (Violin Concerto and 'Italian' Symphony, for example) seem superficially quite light and people don't always give him a chance. If they did then they would see the depth behind the surface charm and elegance.
IMO there is a lot of truth in this observation.
As composer Mendelssohn (with Schubert for that matter, btw) was a real prodigy in that sense that his compositions nearly from the start ARE unmistakingly Mendelssohn (something which cannot be said of Mozart's early works I'm afraid).
The relatively lighthearted works -as e.g. the Misummernightdream overture- and sunny ones like the octet (with an example of one of those remarkable Mendelsohnian scherzos) or the much later violin concerto stick to minds as the "Real" Mendelssohn.
But his string quartets show a digesting of Beethoven's late quartets (Beethoven op.127 influenced Mendelssohn's op.12 considerably) and the development of a much more mature and in depth style in e.g. the string quartet (-pieces) opp. 80 and especially op.81.
There are many other dramatic works and moments in his output - but many completely unknown to a wider public.
I do think as well, that the orchestral output of his is more "homogenous" in its atmospheres and moods than the IMO much more widely ranged chamber music.
As far as the Reformation-symphony is concerned, I am afraid that IMO in this form it is one of Mendelssohn's weaker works. But here we have to keep in mind, that he himself did not publish the work, as his self-criticism told him it needed a severe revision - which his very untimely death prevented.
I actually think that Mendelssohn takes quite a lot of listening to before one fully appreciates how great he was. Add to that that some of his more popular works (Violin Concerto and 'Italian' Symphony, for example) seem superficially quite light and people don't always give him a chance. If they did then they would see the depth behind the surface charm and elegance.
Couldn't agree more. Just listen to the slow movemnt of the 2nd String Quintet- there's plenty of depth there.
Couldn't agree more. Just listen to the slow movemnt of the 2nd String Quintet- there's plenty of depth there.:ok:
Beware Mr Pee! - you're in grave danger of breaking free from your carefully nurtured reputation :biggrin:
:ok:
Beware Mr Pee! - you're in grave danger of breaking free from your carefully nurtured reputation :biggrin:
Sorry about that- don't know what came over me. :yikes:
I can only think I was temporarily discombobulated after watching Maria Sharapova at the Australian Open.....:loveblush:
Sorry about that- don't know what came over me. :yikes:
I can only think I was temporarily discombobulated after watching Maria Sharapova at the Australian Open.....:loveblush:That's the one I meant :laugh:
:ok::ok::ok:
:yikes: :laugh:
Just to complete the Clara Butt picture: she was 6' 2" tall!
Just a thought - everyone has off days, even composers, so it's probable that not everything is of equal quality throughout their output.
(I rather like the Tchaikovsky piano sonatas, by the way...)
Quite agree. I don't think the vibrato is especially implicit, although it's probably nearer to what Elgar had in mind. One thing about Sea Pictures is that it's stated to be for contralto (Clara Butt gave the premiere, dressed as a mermaid) but it lies more comfortably for mezzo-soprano. Perhaps this means that many contraltos strain a little, and that has an effect on vibrato. But I'm no singer.
The version I enjoy most is Yvonne Minton with Barenboim and the LPO. I know that Barenboim got a bit of stick around that time for false portamento in the Symphonies but SP and both his VCs with Perlman and Zukerman are fine. Also I think preferable to the Janet Baker is the live Barbirolli SP with Kirstin Meyer.
Also I think preferable to the Janet Baker is the live Barbirolli SP with Sabine Meyer.I think you mean Kirstin Meyer, cloughie :ok:
I think you mean Kirstin Meyer, cloughie :ok:
Thanks Am51, indeed I do, and I have amended to read so.
Ferretfancy
23-01-12, 16:16
Mention of Clara Butt reminds me of another statuesque contralto, Gladys Ripley, who seems forgotten today. She seemed to me to be in every choral work I ever heard back in the late 40s and early 50s, and I'm pretty sure she recorded Sea Pictures.
Just to complete the Clara Butt picture: she was 6' 2" tall!
Which, by coincidence, is the same height as Maria Sharapova!
Norfolk Born
23-01-12, 20:16
Which, by coincidence, is the same height as Maria Sharapova!
But which is/was the louder?
MrGongGong
23-01-12, 20:17
Which, by coincidence, is the same height as Maria Sharapova!
Is it just me or is there something a little creepy in someone knowing that ????
Which, by coincidence, is the same height as Maria Sharapova!
And to further complete the Clara Butt picture, here's a picture:-
http://i.imgur.com/hzkZa.jpg
And just so that we can make a proper comparison, here's a picture of Maria Sharapova:-
http://i.imgur.com/72Hk4.jpg
:smooch:
MrGongGong
23-01-12, 20:22
Even more so
:sadface:
EdgeleyRob
23-01-12, 20:23
A fine pair. (of pictures!) :winkeye:
Just a thought - everyone has off days, even composers, so it's probable that not everything is of equal quality throughout their output.
(I rather like the Tchaikovsky piano sonatas, by the way...)
Nice thought, but most compositions (though e.g. some Schubert songs and Shostakovich-arrangements excluded) took more than a day to be conceived and composed.
In that respect it is a sign that the composition of the Beethoven works mentioned earlier did not leave a hugh trace of sketches. From Wellington's Sieg mainly sketches regarding the fugatos and from the cantate op.136 only some skeches regarding the solo-violin cum soprano-solo and a couple of choral entries are known. This explains quite a lot of the sub-standard quality of these works: they were more or less composed in one go as it were, without much contemplation.
Looking carefully at the 1812 we find a big gap between the pomposity of some parts of the work and the fine construction of it. From the technical point of view it really is a fine piece, IMO certainly in another league than e.g. the finale of Tchaikovsky 5 (a piece which, for all its faults, I unreservedly love, btw).
Btw, IMO the Fantasy for piano and orchestra op.56 deserves to be mentioned in the thread more than either 1812 or the piano sonata op.37.
Eine Alpensinfonie
23-01-12, 20:27
Looking carefully at the 1812 we find a big gap between the pomposity of some parts of the work and the fine construction of it. From the technical point of view it really is a fine piece,
It is indeed well constructed. Altogether a fine work. The fact that most public performances go overboard with the fireworks should not detract from its qualities.
jayne lee wilson
23-01-12, 20:29
I would refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some messages ago...(no.31)
I'm surprised listeners have trouble with the Reformation Symphony, it's a better piece than no.1, and FMB didn't suppress that - but (as no.2 remember) it is more ambitious yes, and his standards, as Roehre intimates, were high and highly personal from the start... try Colin Davis, where the sonority of the Staatskapelle is richly rewarding. Peter Maag in Madrid (coupled with no.1) is excellent too.
Hans Keller was a great Mendelssohnian of course and often made the very point Parry 1912 made about listeners who superficially dismissed FMB as lacking profundity.
IMO there is a lot of truth in this observation.
As composer Mendelssohn (with Schubert for that matter, btw) was a real prodigy in that sense that his compositions nearly from the start ARE unmistakingly Mendelssohn (something which cannot be said of Mozart's early works I'm afraid).
The relatively lighthearted works -as e.g. the Misummernightdream overture- and sunny ones like the octet (with an example of one of those remarkable Mendelsohnian scherzos) or the much later violin concerto stick to minds as the "Real" Mendelssohn.
But his string quartets show a digesting of Beethoven's late quartets (Beethoven op.127 influenced Mendelssohn's op.12 considerably) and the development of a much more mature and in depth style in e.g. the string quartet (-pieces) opp. 80 and especially op.81.
There are many other dramatic works and moments in his output - but many completely unknown to a wider public.
I do think as well, that the orchestral output of his is more "homogenous" in its atmospheres and moods than the IMO much more widely ranged chamber music.
As far as the Reformation-symphony is concerned, I am afraid that IMO in this form it is one of Mendelssohn's weaker works. But here we have to keep in mind, that he himself did not publish the work, as his self-criticism told him it needed a severe revision - which his very untimely death prevented.
JLW, I haven't got any problem with the Reformation.
That doesn't mean that I don't think it belongs among the lesser successful work of FMB, despite the rich details you rightly mention.
And that's why I do think mentioning the Reformation in this thread is justified.
Thinking of the Symphony's relative position within FMB's output however, mentioning the 2nd piano concerto would be more obvious (certainly if compared with the 1st concerto, which in itself is not an example of a profound concerto either IMO)
Chris Newman
23-01-12, 20:54
After treading on so many sensitive toes by expressing my dislike of the Reformation Symphony and Elijah I have to say that there is much of Mendelssohn's output that I adore: the Italian, Scottish and those relatively recently rediscovered youthful string symphonies, the quartets, Violin Concerto, A Midsummer Night's Dream (preferably with a good bit of the play included), most of the overtures. Much of his music has an airiness and strength that is wonderfully bracing. There are a few works however when too much teutonic dumpling seems to prevent them floating for me.
Jayne and others, I have tried endlessly with the Reformation Symphony. Four live performances and two recordings behind me and I still cannot get to love it. That is probably why I erroneously spotted a thematic connection with Schubert 9 (especially as I knew Felix M premiered the Great C Major: belatedly, but that was not his fault, of course:smiley:. Thank you, Felix, for doing so.) and I had not absorbed the gist of copious programme notes I have read on the Reformation Symphony. I have sung in Elijah and have the famous Frubeck de Burgos recording but still do not succeed with it. I am sure these works are my loss.
Beethoven's drinking songs, political songs & Song of the Flea, all with audience chorus, are um...
Gerontius is a work of great beauty and genius. As with much religious music at its best, whilst it is playing, it makes me wish I was too.
Exactly! (Best thing I've read in this thread.) :ok:
Not unexpected disagreements (4th movement of Beethoven's 9th? Seriously?), but I'd happily second the Tchaikovsky Fantasy Op 56. Now there's a piece of claptrap.
Not unexpected disagreements (4th movement of Beethoven's 9th? Seriously?), but I'd happily second the Tchaikovsky Fantasy Op 56. Now there's a piece of claptrap.
Beethoven's Ninth finale is a difficult one.
In itself it certainly is not a bad mvt. But as finale following the preceding 3 brilliant movements is another story.
Even Beethoven himself was full of doubts of this solution ending the Ninth, so who are we to accept this mvt fully then?
I for one don't think the finale is the crowning mvt of the Ninth, for technical reasons (2 variation sets following each other), as well as a certain lack of "grandeur": the connection which caused the composer so much trouble, and which is fundamentally childish.
But: is it in itself bad music? No, I don't think so.
Tchaikovsky Fantasy Op 56. Now there's a piece of claptrap.
:ok::ok::yikes::ok::ok:
Is it just me or is there something a little creepy in someone knowing that ????
In my defence I did have to Google it!
antongould
23-01-12, 23:09
Bruckner Symphony 0
And am I allowed to say
Paul Simon 50 Ways To Leave Your Lover?
Bruckner Symphony 0
In itself not bad music, but of course the composer "annulled" it himself :biggrin: and didn't want it to be published.
But I do think there were a couple of lesser composers who would be delighted to have composed this work :blush:
Mention of Clara Butt reminds me of another statuesque contralto, Gladys Ripley, who seems forgotten today. She seemed to me to be in every choral work I ever heard back in the late 40s and early 50s, and I'm pretty sure she recorded Sea Pictures.
With George Weldon if I remember correctly.
With George Weldon if I remember correctly.
It seems to be available as an mp3 download from a Somm disc: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005ZLEX6Q/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1327362743&sr=8-1
Suffolkcoastal
24-01-12, 08:18
Bruckner's '0' is actually not bad at all, I find it a much more staisfactory work than his 1st Symphony and I also prefer it to his 3rd.
MrGongGong
24-01-12, 08:20
Paul Simon 50 Ways To Leave Your Lover?
YES you are
MrGongGong
24-01-12, 08:21
Paul Simon 50 Ways To Leave Your Lover?
YES you are
(but only ONCE .............not sure how that happened ? :cool:)
Bruckner's '0' is actually not bad at all, I find it a much more staisfactory work than his 1st Symphony and I also prefer it to his 3rd.
Immediately agreed. IIRC the first (the Linz version that is) was at least partly composed before or during the Nullte - in any case the composition of these pieces is intertwined somehow.
antongould
24-01-12, 09:11
Bruckner's '0' is actually not bad at all, I find it a much more staisfactory work than his 1st Symphony and I also prefer it to his 3rd.
Well I have tried to get into it but obviously failed miserably to me Bruckner, unlike myself, got very, very much better with age and I realise 0 is not the first......
Well I have tried to get into it but obviously failed miserably to me Bruckner, unlike myself, got very, very much better with age and I realise 0 is not the first......
00
I'd agree with those above that Bruckner's earliest symphonies aren't a patch on his later ones (but he's hardly unique in that). But if we're looking for weak mature works, then the obvious one is Helgoland. I've only heard the Barenboim/BPO recording, but it doesn't do anything to convince me that its widespread neglect is unfair. Was Bruckner just not inspired by the text?
verismissimo
24-01-12, 12:38
IMO the Fantasy for piano and orchestra op.56 deserves to be mentioned in the thread more than either 1812 or the piano sonata op.37.
Maybe they should couple the Fantasy op56 with the 3rd Piano Concerto, Roehre.
OMG, they have! Michael Ponti the poor pianist. In the Tchaikovsky Brilliant box, which is an amazing bargain.
Hard to choose between as painful experiences.
I'd agree with those above that Bruckner's earliest symphonies aren't a patch on his later ones (but he's hardly unique in that). But if we're looking for weak mature works, then the obvious one is Helgoland. I've only heard the Barenboim/BPO recording, but it doesn't do anything to convince me that its widespread neglect is unfair. Was Bruckner just not inspired by the text?
It was a commission (a very rare occurrance for Bruckner, the quintet IIRC the only other example), and what's even more irritating about Helgoland is, that with the time Bruckner spent composing this work, he most likely would have been able to complete his Ninth..... :steam:
But if we're looking for weak mature works, then the obvious one is Helgoland.
I couldn't disagree more.
I got into Bruckner's music with symphony no '0'. I shocked people on the old boards by comparing this work with Bernard Hermann's music for 'North by North West' but there are similarities and I am sure Hermann knew the work and especially the scherzo. I still have trouble with the length and thickness of scoring in Bruckner but will persevere.
Serial_Apologist
24-01-12, 18:00
I got into Bruckner's music with symphony no '0'. I shocked people on the old boards by comparing this work with Bernard Hermann's music for 'North by North West' but there are similarities and I am sure Hermann knew the work and especially the scherzo. I still have trouble with the length and thickness of scoring in Bruckner but will persevere.
Percy Verance is my middle name; but even he eventually abandoned me when it came to appreciating Herr Bruckner...
jayne lee wilson
24-01-12, 21:50
I always heard the 9th's finale as "a rondo including variation form" - didn't Hans Keller describe it that way once?
And didn't LVB's sketchbooks show that he considered using the finale's first theme fron the Op.132 String Quartet for that of the 9th? How different it might have been.
It is a fascinatingly, blazingly original conception of how to end a symphony, blending structural complexity and fluidity with an almost "popular" (or "vulgar" in an older sense) melodic appeal. And remember it has been hugely influential in many ways since, precisely because of these emotional and structural qualities.
But Roehre, wouldn't "grandeur" be too conventional here? Rather like the Soviet Apparatchiks expecting DSCH's 9th to be a crowning glory after the war - look what they got! I think the sheer wildness of Beethoven's choral finale makes sense as a breaking free from any real precedents, and the most intense of all his essentially humanist affirmations in the face of the suffering he lived with for so long. Whatever his own doubts, I believe his instincts were good.
A parallel case occurs in Op.130 - do you prefer the (too?) obvious contrast, the grander sonority, of the Grosse Fuge finale, or that deceptively lighthearted, skittish little dance?
Beethoven's Ninth finale is a difficult one.
In itself it certainly is not a bad mvt. But as finale following the preceding 3 brilliant movements is another story.
Even Beethoven himself was full of doubts of this solution ending the Ninth, so who are we to accept this mvt fully then?
I for one don't think the finale is the crowning mvt of the Ninth, for technical reasons (2 variation sets following each other), as well as a certain lack of "grandeur": the connection which caused the composer so much trouble, and which is fundamentally childish.
But: is it in itself bad music? No, I don't think so.
antongould
24-01-12, 22:04
Percy Verance is my middle name; but even he eventually abandoned me when it came to appreciating Herr Bruckner...
I would still recommend you, Percy and saly hang in there.........
A parallel case occurs in Op.130 - do you prefer the (too?) obvious contrast, the grander sonority, of the Grosse Fuge finale, or that deceptively lighthearted, skittish little dance?
Is it fair enough to answer: 'that depends on my mood'? :cool:
A parallel case occurs in Op.130 - do you prefer the (too?) obvious contrast, the grander sonority, of the Grosse Fuge finale, or that deceptively lighthearted, skittish little dance?
I prefer the Grosse Fuge, for a couple of reasons, of which two are:
-IMO the work with the original finale is better balanced, but, IMO more importantly
-the new finale creates a style rupture, as IMO this finale plus op.135, plus what we know of the string quintet and the quintet for flute and strings and his own words and plans, Beethoven entered a new phase -if you like a fourth manner- in his composing (and -as a onsequence- this implies the late quartets consist of 3 "groups": I: op.127; II: the Galitzin quartets 132-130/133-131 and III: finale 130 - 135)
I also prefer the Grosser Fuge preceded by the rest of Op. 130, rather than played as a 'bleeding chunk', albeit that it was later published with its own opus number.
jayne lee wilson
25-01-12, 00:29
Of course, especially given recordings that offer you both... Modern Life Is(n't always) Rubbish. (see what I did there?)
OK. Bearing in mind the classical dance suite (Telemann, Bach etc.) as background to Op. 130, here's Hans Keller's thoughts on Op.130 (notes to Essays on Music, p.248):
"...one reason why I feel sure that Beethoven genuinely, musically, preferred the second Finale qua finale to the Fugue - in order to dance more consistently throughout the work, continually if not continuously, at least in the background. Another reason of which, in view of Beethoven's sharply defined creative character, I am equally convinced is what I suggest is his extreme need for contrast: the Fugue's integration with the opening thought of the work would not have been sub-thematic, but downright thematic, as we readily realize if we run the Fugue's basic thought, as an antecedent, into the consequent of the work's opening, harmony and all.
And once again, we have to remind ourselves that if Beethoven had wanted this degree of overt integration, he could easily have stuck to it when he came to compose the second Finale. Instead, he chose to create what was, perhaps, the greatest - and the final - contrast of his life, to wit, that between the Cavatina and the second finale."
Is it fair enough to answer: 'that depends on my mood'? :cool:
And once again, we have to remind ourselves that if Beethoven had wanted this degree of overt integration, he could easily have stuck to it when he came to compose the second Finale. Instead, he chose to create what was, perhaps, the greatest - and the final - contrast of his life, to wit, that between the Cavatina and the second finale."
That's to rich an assumption of Keller's here: despite the correspondence in November 1826 (after the Ersatz-finale had been sent off to the publisher) the movements of 130 had all separately been prepared but not assembled and a separate publication then of the Grosse Fuge was an option under consideration to which Beethoven still had to give his definitive agreement - which was assumed, but not given in writing at the time of his death. Opus 130 and 133 were published as such in the first week of may 1827, some 6 weeks after Beethoven's death.
B's finances were (in his own perception, that is) in a quite dire situation, meaning the extra 15 ducats for the new finale were without doubt a very welcome extra income. Regarding his treatment of publishers: it wouldn't have been the first time that in his correspondence he wrote something else then his real intentions or the real situation. And that's an understatement. "I have got a whole new symphony in my drawers" e.g. stems from approximately the same time.....
Given these circumstances Keller should have worded his opinion here much more carefully.
It seems to be available as an mp3 download from a Somm disc:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005ZLEX6Q/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1327362743&sr=8-1
I still have the Ripley/ Weldon/LSO LP of Elgar Sea Pictures and In the South. I have been dismayed at the quality of some of my old LPs recently. Hope this has lasted well. Regarding the songs, remember Elgar's wife wrote some or all of the words and the tempi didn't sound odd at the time they were written.
A piece of Elgar's which he IMO should have withheld from publication: Concert-allegro for piano
A piece of Elgar's which he IMO should have withheld from publication: Concert-allegro for piano
I agree. Actually, he did withhold it - it's only been published in the last 30 years or so. He tinkered with it for years without getting it right.
rauschwerk
25-01-12, 10:45
A piece of Elgar's which he IMO should have withheld from publication: Concert-allegro for piano
But when neither Boosey or Schott would pay him 40 guineas for it, he put the MS away and it was not published until 1982.
Glad I've never heard it then.
But when neither Boosey or Schott would pay him 40 guineas for it, he put the MS away and it was not published until 1982.
Yes. Wasn't commissioned by (?) Fanny Davies, who performed an early version?
MrGongGong
25-01-12, 20:47
I just remembered Stockhausen's Lucifer's Dance,
which was the low point of the otherwise excellent festival at the South Bank a few years ago
I just remembered Stockhausen's Lucifer's Dance,
which was the low point of the otherwise excellent festival at the South Bank a few years ago
Aren't you forgetting 1991's rather mediocre Oktophonie? I've admittedly heard only the stereophonic realisation, but even if the sound is tossed around eight speakers I can't imagine the octophonic version having any more musical substance.
3rd Viennese School
26-01-12, 16:13
Tchaikovsky Swan Lake.
And the tedious mvt 8 from the Nutcracker suite.
And his other awful European Walzes.
Why does the radio/ record companies etc. play /issue just these over and over?
They keep neglecting his superb large darkly dramatic symphonies!
3VS
MrGongGong
26-01-12, 16:19
Aren't you forgetting 1991's rather mediocre Oktophonie? I've admittedly heard only the stereophonic realisation, but even if the sound is tossed around eight speakers I can't imagine the octophonic version having any more musical substance.
It was a bit iffy in the QEH but brilliant at the Proms
ooops I was confusing it with Cosmic Pulses
sorry :whistle:
Eine Alpensinfonie
26-01-12, 16:50
Tchaikovsky Swan Lake.
And the tedious mvt 8 from the Nutcracker suite.
And his other awful European Walzes.
Why does the radio/ record companies etc. play /issue just these over and over?
They keep neglecting his superb large darkly dramatic symphonies!
3VS
Well I agree about Valse des Fleurs, but I was only listening to Swan Lake a couple of weeks ago and to me it remains a supreme acheivement even after so many hearings.
Tchaikovsky Swan Lake.
And the tedious mvt 8 from the Nutcracker suite.
And his other awful European Walzes.
Why does the radio/ record companies etc. play /issue just these over and over?
They keep neglecting his superb large darkly dramatic symphonies!
3VS
I don't mind them played as full suites but annoyuing over and again as BCs. There was an interesting juxtaposition of Tchaik waltzes ONF Masur on Ao3 a week or two ago, spoiled by the interruption of applause.
verismissimo
26-01-12, 17:20
I was only listening to Swan Lake a couple of weeks ago and to me it remains a supreme acheivement even after so many hearings.
Oh yes!
They keep neglecting his superb large darkly dramatic symphonies!
I think that 'neglecting' is putting it a bit strongly. :erm:
the Mendelssohn string symphonies.
I know he was very young, but i just cannot understand what some people see in them. They may be a real achievement for one so young, but they are a dull old listen in my view.
the Mendelssohn string symphonies.
I know he was very young, but i just cannot understand what some people see in them. They may be a real achievement for one so young, but they are a dull old listen in my view.
With the possible exception of no.8 (the one of which Mendelssohn made a version with winds) I agree.
But FMB didn't publish them.
A composer with hardly any weaknesses in his output (as he destroyed everything which he thought was under par) nevertheless published one: Brahms' Triumphlied op.55 for choir and orchestra, celebrating the unity of Germany under Bismarck, 1871. IMO a handelian misconception, musically and certainly textually.
With the possible exception of no.8 (the one of which Mendelssohn made a version with winds) I agree.
But FMB didn't publish them.
A composer with hardly any weaknesses in his output (as he destroyed everything which he thought was under par) nevertheless published one: Brahms' Triumphlied op.55 for choir and orchestra, celebrating the unity of Germany under Bismarck, 1871. IMO a handelian misconception, musically and certainly textually.
Well I will give no 8 another go. As I suggested, no slur intended on FMB, whose music is, in general, an absolute joy !!
And equally, will give the Brahms a miss.
On the subject of Brahms, can't really get on with the Piano sonatas. Perhaps I am listening all wrong ?!
the Mendelssohn string symphonies.
I know he was very young, but i just cannot understand what some people see in them. They may be a real achievement for one so young, but they are a dull old listen in my view.
The answer is to adopt the Johnny Cash approach - One piece at a time.
LeMartinPecheur
27-01-12, 00:12
On the subject of Brahms, can't really get on with the Piano sonatas. Perhaps I am listening all wrong ?! Start with #3 and work backwards? - the 3rd for me has some of his most gorgeous music, esp the 2nd movt.
3rd Viennese School
27-01-12, 12:13
Tchaikovsky.
not neglect as in Prokofiev 6, but most non musical people seem to know Peter for the usual ballets (he only wrote 3!) and not his better music, the darker symphonies, some of the overtures etc.
I'm not on about educated listeners here by the way!
3VS
Start with #3 and work backwards? - the 3rd for me has some of his most gorgeous music, esp the 2nd movt.
Had a look, but can't find any recordings of #3 played backwards !!!
Anyway,i played an orthodox forward version instead, and it turns out you are right. Great stuff, made for a really good drive to Bath this morning.
Cheers !!
Chopin: piano trio op.8 and cello sonata op.65
Chopin: piano trio op.8 and cello sonata op.65
Too often they sound like weakly accompanied piano concertos.
Ferretfancy
02-02-12, 17:24
Too often they sound like weakly accompanied piano concertos.
You mean as boring as Chopin's own piano concertos ? ( I do own good versions of them, but they really are awful waffle ! )
You mean as boring as Chopin's own piano concertos ? ( I do own good versions of them, but they really are awful waffle ! )
I don't mind the Concerti, but I'm not that keen on most of his solo piano works - particularly in large doses!
You mean as boring as Chopin's own piano concertos ? ( I do own good versions of them, but they really are awful waffle ! )
With which assessment I only can agree :biggrin:
Panjandrum
02-02-12, 18:46
You mean as boring as Chopin's own piano concertos ? ( I do own good versions of them, but they really are awful waffle ! )
Love them both - real young man's music, particularly the effervescent finales. You must have forgotten what it's like to be young ferret! :whistle:
Suffolkcoastal
02-02-12, 19:08
I quite like the E minor Concerto, which I don't think is that bad a piece either. The F minor though bores me rigid, especially the slow movement, endless figuration and no substance. Strangely it tends to be the F minor that gets performed and broadcast more often these days.
I quite like the E minor Concerto, which I don't think is that bad a piece either. The F minor though bores me rigid, especially the slow movement, endless figuration and no substance. Strangely it tends to be the F minor that gets performed and broadcast more often these days.
I like no.1 definitely as well. It is the later of the two. What we now know as the second concerto was composed before the first, but Chopin was forced to re-compose the piece as he lost the score somewhere.
The orchestral accompaniment of the 2nd mvt can be omitted without any loss of its musical contents, and was quite regularly played in this form, and I do recall even some recordings of it as stand-alone piano piece.
I prefer this concerto's piano quintet version, as in that way Chopin at least succeeded in "covering up" some of his deficiencies in orchestral writing.
Ferretfancy
02-02-12, 23:34
Love them both - real young man's music, particularly the effervescent finales. You must have forgotten what it's like to be young ferret! :whistle:
Well, thanks Panjandrum! It's been a while admittedly, but I do still have a few youthful enthusiasms left!
I think my problem with the Chopin concertos is that they seem such routine stuff, and that's baffling when the solo piano works are so great.
Chris Newman
02-02-12, 23:38
You mean as boring as Chopin's own piano concertos ? ( I do own good versions of them, but they really are awful waffle ! )
Chopin's solo piano works in the hands of say Peter Katin or Artur Rubinstein are absolute bliss. They sound like the ideal music for the piano.
Sadly, the concertos are worse than waffle (Ferretfancy is too kind). No 1 opens orchestrally as if we will hear grand robust stuff (Weber and Auber spring to mind as contemporaries: don't mention LvB!) but as soon as the piano comes in the piece goes into terminal decline. No 2 never even gets that far, falling flat at the beginning.
I think my problem with the Chopin concertos is that they seem such routine stuff, and that's baffling when the solo piano works are so great.
I've probably missed a trick somewhere, but somehow Chopin's solo works have never done it for me.
jayne lee wilson
03-02-12, 02:17
Have you tried Vladimir Sofronitsky in Chopin? Hard to find, admittedly, mostly on Denon or Vista Vera. Extraordinarily intense, poetic take on Chopin - the pianism is flawless but never showing off its virtuosity. If you find any, just pitch in to one of the big anthologies or live concerts. The 1949 recitals deserve their legendary status.
Panjandrum
03-02-12, 08:24
I've probably missed a trick somewhere, but somehow Chopin's solo works have never done it for me.
I love all Chopin's solo piano music (as well as the much maligned concertos) but the genres in which he composed do fall into different emotional worlds. There are the waltzes and mazurkas which originate in the salon, which for many people is Chopin. There is also the darker, more Romantic side of Chopin which the ballades, scherzi, fantasy and nocturnes explore. If you are unfamiliar with these compositions then I would strongly advise making their acquaintance in order to get a full appreciation of his art.
Chopin's solo piano works in the hands of say Peter Katin or Artur Rubinstein are absolute bliss. They sound like the ideal music for the piano.
Sadly, the concertos are worse than waffle (Ferretfancy is too kind). No 1 opens orchestrally as if we will hear grand robust stuff (Weber and Auber spring to mind as contemporaries: don't mention LvB!) but as soon as the piano comes in the piece goes into terminal decline. No 2 never even gets that far, falling flat at the beginning.
I agree Chris, listen to Peter Katin's Ballade no 4 and almost anything played by Artur. Sheer bliss.
IMO Chopin just wasn't happy writing for full orchestra and it shows.
antongould
03-02-12, 08:41
Oh dear I think both PCs are quite wonderful........but what do I know ??
Ferretfancy
03-02-12, 10:13
Oh dear I think both PCs are quite wonderful........but what do I know ??
Don't worry Anton! The one sensible thing that Polonius said was " Take no man's censure, but reserve thy judgement " Of course, we are all judges here!
Panjandrum
03-02-12, 12:27
Don't worry Anton! The one sensible thing that Polonius said was " Take no man's censure, but reserve thy judgement " Of course, we are all judges here!
Didn't he in fact say "Take each (sic) man's censure, but reserve thy judgment"? IOW, listen to others' criticisms, but keep your own counsel (particulary in criticism of others). Given Shakespeare portrays Polonius as a fatuous old windbag, I'm not sure we are expected to heed his advice.
antongould
03-02-12, 15:38
Fatuous windbag sounds a fair description of moi..........
Ferretfancy
03-02-12, 23:01
Didn't he in fact say "Take each (sic) man's censure, but reserve thy judgment"? IOW, listen to others' criticisms, but keep your own counsel (particulary in criticism of others). Given Shakespeare portrays Polonius as a fatuous old windbag, I'm not sure we are expected to heed his advice.
Panjandrum
The quote always used to printed in the programme summary for the Royal Festival Hall, and I found it in that memory bank, so I'm sure you are correct. You confirm my statement that we are all judges here, and must not allow our vigilance to slip.
jayne lee wilson
04-02-12, 01:08
I never seek them out, but always enjoy them far more than I expect to, encountered spontaneously, or as part one of a concert. Lovely moment at the end of Polanski's The Pianist, when Spielman (Adrien Brody) plays the Grande Polonaise Brillante Op.22 in the orchestral version.
Oh dear I think both PCs are quite wonderful........but what do I know ??
ferneyhoughgeliebte
04-02-12, 10:04
I never seek them out, but always enjoy them far more than I expect to, encountered spontaneously, or as part one of a concert.
Me, too. It's as if I've heard the "not very good pieces" line trotted out so frequently about the Chopin Concerti that it's sunk into my subconscious.
Schönberg: 3 Satires opus 28 is a work which he shouldn't have published (for its toe-cringing texts for a start)
ferneyhoughgeliebte
04-02-12, 10:43
Schönberg: 3 Satires opus 28 is a work which he shouldn't have published (for its toe-cringing texts for a start)
I agree that the texts show the snide, humourless aspect of AS's personality, but the pieces themselves are superb!
Serial_Apologist
04-02-12, 16:39
I agree that the texts show the snide, humourless aspect of AS's personality, but the pieces themselves are superb!
But he was right about "Le petit Modernski, just like Papa Bach"!
Fatuous windbag sounds a fair description of moi..........
I beg to differ and indeed forcefully assert the contrary, anton!
antongould
04-02-12, 17:19
you are and always were a gentleman.......
Evening anton, no windbag you; your knowledge in that AA thread leaves me standing. It's a mistake to compare pianists like Chopin with purely orchestral composers IMHO.
Glad you are with us again :laugh:
that AA thread
A lurker, saly! A veritable lurker! I'm sure you've got more than a few clues over the months!!
We're all left standing a lot of the time - hence all the tangents and chat!
Would love to tackle a saly puzzle one day! Do pitch in... to quote Julian and Sandy:
Don't be strange! Troll in!!
:hug:
A lurker, saly! A veritable lurker! I'm sure you've got more than a few clues over the months!!
We're all left standing a lot of the time - hence all the tangents and chat!
Would love to tackle a saly puzzle one day! Do pitch in... to quote Julian and Sandy:
Don't be strange! Troll in!!
:hug:
Caliban, not me, my brain hs turned to mush these days. You wait until you're....never mind :smiley:
antongould
04-02-12, 20:02
Caliban, not me, my brain hs turned to mush these days. You wait until you're....never mind :smiley:
If that's mush I'd like some - I'm sure you could set a fine clue or two! We will agree to differ about Chopin .........hope the snow is staying away from Sidcup.
That's to rich an assumption of Keller's here: despite the correspondence in November 1826 (after the Ersatz-finale had been sent off to the publisher) the movements of 130 had all separately been prepared but not assembled and a separate publication then of the Grosse Fuge was an option under consideration to which Beethoven still had to give his definitive agreement - which was assumed, but not given in writing at the time of his death. Opus 130 and 133 were published as such in the first week of may 1827, some 6 weeks after Beethoven's death.
B's finances were (in his own perception, that is) in a quite dire situation, meaning the extra 15 ducats for the new finale were without doubt a very welcome extra income. Regarding his treatment of publishers: it wouldn't have been the first time that in his correspondence he wrote something else then his real intentions or the real situation. And that's an understatement. "I have got a whole new symphony in my drawers" e.g. stems from approximately the same time.....
Given these circumstances Keller should have worded his opinion here much more carefully.
There is a remarkable performance of the final version of Op 130, given after the war, in Germany, by the Busch Quartet as then constituted, which survives on the Arbiter label and can still be downloaded at Amazon as MP3. If you listen with a mind open enough to accept that you had never heard the second finale before, but with the Grosse Fuge in your head, you realise that there is no conflict of styles between the two finales, and that the second one is in many ways a commentary on the first. I seem to remember that Keller expressed, in typically paradoxical fashion, a preference for the second finale and it may well be that earlier posts (which I don't seem to be able to access) in this discussion reflected it. Until I came across this Busch performance I was inclined to dismiss Keller's view. Now I'm not so sure.
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