View Full Version : BaL - 4.03.12 - Nielsen's Symphony no. 4
Eine Alpensinfonie
24-02-12, 09:07
9:30 David Fanning with a personal recommendation from recordings of Nielsen's Symphony no. 4
Available versions:
Hallé Orchestra, Sir John Barbirolli (live version – there was also an earlier studio recording)
New York Philharmonic, Leonard Bernstein
Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra, Herbert Blomstedt
San Francisco Symphony Orchestra, Herbert Blomstedt
Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra, Neeme Järvi
Danish National Symphony Orchestra, Thomas Dausgaard
London Symphony Orchestra, Sir Colin Davis
Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra, Gustavo Dudamel
Göteborgs Symfoniker, Neeme Järvi
Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra, Tor Mann
Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra, Zubin Mehta
Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra, Esa-Pekka Salonen
London Symphony Orchestra, Ole Schmidt
Danish National Symphony Orchestra, Michael Schønwandt
City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, Simon Rattle
Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra, Gennady Rozhdestvensky
The Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra, Erik Tuxen
BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, Osmo Vänskä
ferneyhoughgeliebte
24-02-12, 10:04
Thanks for this meticulous (as ever) work, Alpie.
The Tuxen was the "chosen one" when the work was last surveyed twelve years ago, it will be interesting to hear how the newer recordings fare: I'm particularly keen to hear the Davis.
But no Karajan? Too "refined" for some ears to be a first choice, perhaps, it was the recording that first opened my ears to this astonishing work and composer. (AND it beats the Salonen to a pulp!)
Barbirollians
24-02-12, 11:11
SFSO/Blomstedt for me . A marvellous cycle of performances .
Is the CSO Martinon not available, and as previously mention Karajan or SNO Gibson?
Eine Alpensinfonie
24-02-12, 12:37
The Tuxen was the "chosen one" when the work was last surveyed twelve years ago
Thank you, Ferney. Now I know who the actual conductor really was, I've corrected the list.
SFSO/Blomstedt for me . A marvellous cycle of performances .
:ok::ok::magic::magic:
I frist heard this wonderful symphony on Radio 3 (I think) in a 'live' performance conducted by Antal Dorati. I recorded it on to a compact cassette and played it over and over again and hence that is my benchmark performance.
I have not heard a recorded performance that comes close to it which is why I shall be listening to this BAL with great interest. I heard the concert perfomances by LSO/Colin Davis when they were broadcast and found the opening just too fast. It will be fascinating to see which version is the expert's favourite this time
The Kuchar/Janacek Philharmonic Orchestra recordings (on Brilliant Classics) of the symphonies have received good reviews, though I have not managed to hear any of them. Are they no longer available? I have the Blomstedt recording with the Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra and that sounds very good to me.
a compact cassette
Ah ye olde compacte cassette! How modern we thought we were! Où sont les cassettes d'antan?! :erm: :whistle:
Ah ye olde compacte cassette! How modern we thought we were! Où sont les cassettes d'antan?! :erm: :whistle:If you listen carefully, you can hear then disintegrating in those carrier bags under the stairs :laugh::sadface:
I have a complete Beethoven Piano sonata cycle rercorded 'live' off-air from R3, a London (QEH)cycle that Brendel did in the mid-80s - I just daren't look :yikes:
HighlandDougie
24-02-12, 16:48
One of my absolute favourite pieces of music - heart-burstingly thrilling if performed well. I started a post a few months ago on posters recommended versions as I felt that I needed a more modern recording than Launy Grøndahl, whom I regard as hors concours in this symphony. I don't know quite what it is about his recording that makes it so special - his choice of tempi? the timbre of the orchestra? the balance of instruments? Whatever it is, my somewhat obsessive listening to (and collection of) no fewer than 14 of the recordings listed above, plus Gibson, Karajan, Thomas Jensen, Igor Markevich etc, failed to reveal a recording which has the same effect. I'm not sure how easy it is to get hold of the Dutton re-issue rather than an MP3 download but if ever a recording deserved the accolade, "Great Recording of the Century", it is surely it.
Otherwise, I'll be interested in David Fanning's views. Incidentally, has Thomas Dausgaard recorded the symphonies? I had convinced myself that the Da Capo slipcase with 3 CDs of the symphonies which I have mysteriously lost contained recordings by him but I now think that it was probably the recordings by Michael Schønwandt and I got my Danish conductors a bit mixed up. The recent Da Capo box contains two different Schønwandt cycles - the original as issued by Da Capo then Naxos and which is on CD - and another live cycle, recorded in 2000, which is on DVD. It also contains Dausgaard's standout SACD of Nielsen orchestral works (about which David Fanning raved with a good deal of justification in The Gramophone). My vote would probably go to Davis, which is almost as thrilling as Grøndahl - and my candidates for the black spot would certainly include Salonen and Martinon, who conducts it slickly but with little feeling for the music.
Oops, apologies for going all train-spotter
Chris Newman
24-02-12, 17:35
I remember the thrill of my first Inextinguishable with the French NRSO and Jean Martinon in a concert at the RFH which included Berlioz operatic torsos incredibly sung by Régine Crespin. I became a Nielsen addict. I have both Blomstedt cycles, with the symphony by Barbirolli, Tuxen, Gibson, Rhozdezvensky, Davis. Waldhorn persuaded me to try the Chandos Gibson and I have to say it really is up there with the Tuxen. It is still available s/h on Amazon and as an MP3 download.
Norfolk Born
24-02-12, 17:50
Another vote here for Blomstedt/San Francisco Symphony (not just for the 4th, but for the whole cycle).
Brassbandmaestro
24-02-12, 17:53
I wil have to catch up with this BaL next week sometime. i will be away on a brass abnd weekend!! Lots of :ale:!!
I have the SFS/Blomstedt to and for the whole cycleI give top marks!!
HighlandDougie
24-02-12, 18:18
Great Blomstedt/SFSO 5th (to which I am listening as I type) but not quite so great 4th, in my unhumble opinion (probably that's just because it's not Grøndahl). But as a cycle, better played and better recorded (OK - maybe not than Vanska) than probably any other. I await the Alan Gilbert/NYPO cycle on Da Capo SACD keenly.
makropulos
24-02-12, 18:58
My introduction to this symphony was Igor Markevitch's record from the mid-1960s - incendiary stuff, but it's never been on CD as far as I know. That''s probably still my favourite performance, though for a different approach I love the slightly manic excess of Bernstein and I still like Barbirolli's Pye recording. I know Blomstedt has his fervent admirers in this music but his "Inextinguishable" always feels a bit tame to my ears. Grøndahl is a more recent discovery for me, and despite the limited sound, I think it's a thriller.
jayne lee wilson
25-02-12, 00:31
The Kuchar is one the great cycles, hidden treasure really, No. 4 is very good, buy with confidence! And the whole set is a sonic spectacular, better recorded than the later Blomstedt. Amazed at the lack of attention given to this Brilliant Box in print reviews. Read about it at MusicWeb.
Ole Schmidt is also excellent in No.4 and the whole cycle, now on Regis (ignore Penguin Guide coments about the SQ, it's fine).
I can see what HD means about the Martinon but it comes to life rather better on the "RCA Classic Library" DSD remaster. And the Chicago Symphony were in their terrific prime in 1966, post-Reiner, before other conductors misused their virtuoso inheritance.
Schonwandt always seems to fall into the accurate but dull category, lacking drama though he's better in 2 and 3. The forthcoming Gilbert cycle should be available as a hi-res download at Da Capo, but I'm afraid my experience of Gilbert, including last week's NYPO concert, is again one of accurate dullness. I don't have especial hopes of his Nielsen; be only too pleased if he proves me wrong...
Definitely a symphony to be experienced live, with those duelling timpani! Best thrill I ever had with it was just last Spring, with Thomas Dausgaard conducting the RLPO - wow!
The Kuchar/Janacek Philharmonic Orchestra recordings (on Brilliant Classics) of the symphonies have received good reviews, though I have not managed to hear any of them. Are they no longer available? I have the Blomstedt recording with the Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra and that sounds very good to me.
HighlandDougie
25-02-12, 13:36
Very envious of JLW having heard Thomas Dausgaard and, from her comments on Alan Gilbert, rather wish that Da Capo was sticking to the Danish home team of Dausgaard/Danish NSO for their new SACD set rather than being seduced by the brash New Yorkers. And, despite Jack Lawson (the man who sold me my first serious hi-fi equipment a long long time ago and a Nielsen fanatic - see MusicWeb) and his enthusiasm for Kuchar, it doesn't greatly do it for me ....
The MP3 eClassical download of Grøndahl (which has presumably come from Naxos and which in turn may have come from a vinyl pressing, rather than the EMI tapes) sounds terrible (thin, strident, ancient) so, in the absence of the Mike Dutton CD, the Grøndahl isn't just hors concours but is now hors de combat. Sigh - there's no justice in the world.
visualnickmos
25-02-12, 14:20
The only cycle I have heard - ie, the one I have, is the Blomstedt/San Francisco. Perfectly good, IMHO. Very 'immediate' sound, and dynamic playing throughout.
verismissimo
25-02-12, 18:15
I've only ever had NYPO/Bernstein.
Was it he and Barbirolli who pioneeered this symphony outside of Nordic/Scandinavian forces?
Chris Newman
25-02-12, 19:13
I've only ever had NYPO/Bernstein.
Was it he and Barbirolli who pioneeered this symphony outside of Nordic/Scandinavian forces?
Barbirolli certainly was a strong advocate of this work though Alex Gibson, Jascha Horenstein, Jean Martinon, Gennadi Rhozdesvensky and Ole Schmidt must be given honourable mention too when Nielsen was merely regarded as a strange Scandinavian.
What about Saraste's cycle on Finlandia? It's pretty good; listening to his No. 4 as I type.
Edit: Can be had for as little as £1.51 s'h:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nielsen-Symphonies-4-5/dp/B000006DXZ/ref=sr_1_7?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1330246121&sr=1-7
HighlandDougie
26-02-12, 16:12
Currently missing from my collection, so many thanks for the reminder, Mahlerei. I didn't manage £1.51 but £1.99 didn't seem too bad. I'll be very interested to hear Saraste in this work as he's a fine conductor
Currently missing from my collection, so many thanks for the reminder, Mahlerei. I didn't manage £1.51 but £1.99 didn't seem too bad. I'll be very interested to hear Saraste in this work as he's a fine conductor
Do let us know what you think of it.
Help please.
I have Nielsen sym 4 listed as a DVD. I'm pretty sure it was the one BBCMM offer that came as a DVD and not a CD. I may have filed it under another work with it and not cross referenced. It has disappeared.:sadface:
Help please.
I have Nielsen sym 4 listed as a DVD. I'm pretty sure it was the one BBCMM offer that came as a DVD and not a CD. I may have filed it under another work with it and not cross referenced. It has disappeared.:sadface: Soifyou have this recording. please tell me what is with it.
salymap,
Is this the disc you are looking for?
http://www.discogs.com/Nielson-BBC-National-Orchestra-Of-Wales-Tadaaki-Otaka-Petri-Sakari-Robert-Plane-Symphony-No-4-The-In/release/1641875
salymap,
Is this the disc you are looking for?
http://www.discogs.com/Nielson-BBC-National-Orchestra-Of-Wales-Tadaaki-Otaka-Petri-Sakari-Robert-Plane-Symphony-No-4-The-In/release/1641875
Thanks a lot Curalach, still can'tfind it though.
Chris Newman
27-02-12, 14:59
Help please.
I have Nielsen sym 4 listed as a DVD. I'm pretty sure it was the one BBCMM offer that came as a DVD and not a CD. I may have filed it under another work with it and not cross referenced. It has disappeared.:sadface:
I think the one and only DVD on BBCMM was
BBC Music Magazine - Free DVD from July 2007.
Nielsen's Fourth Symphony, conducted by Osmo Vanska, and
Beethoven's Fourth Piano Concerto, played by Andreas Haefliger, both from BBC Proms appearances.
Have you checked under Beethoven, saly?
Oh Chris, many thanks. I thought 2001 for the other one wasn't right and yes, it is a DVD. My sight for this sort of hunt is not good and I began to wonder if I'd given it away. To make it more complicated I inherited quite a lot of old BBCMM discs from a relative.
Good job I was better at cross reference years ago at work.:laugh: saly xx
Chris Newman
27-02-12, 15:56
It is a funny DVD because the picture (at any rate, on my screen) gets squeezed narrow which makes Mr Vanska look quite slim but makes most of the BBCSO and BBCSSO look anorexic. I remember the BBCMM got lots of complaints because many people automatically put the discs in their CD-players and they did not work. I am glad we have solved the problem....now where did I put my copy?
PS. You can see I worked in a library too. Looking for alternative filing places becomes second nature.
Brassbandmaestro
28-02-12, 10:23
Who were the winners and riders?
Who were the winners and riders?
We don't know yet, BBM, it's on this coming Saturday (which is the 3rd not 4th March as per heading)
Brassbandmaestro
28-02-12, 11:34
Ah, so it is! Thank you Petrushka! Just coming round from a hefty weekend!!
Eine Alpensinfonie
02-03-12, 22:36
Have there been any other Nielsen symphonies featured in BaL?
LeMartinPecheur
02-03-12, 23:03
Have there been any other Nielsen symphonies featured in BaL?EA: I've a hazy idea they've done 3 & 5, but don't ask me when, or who the winners were. Maybe SFSO/Blomstedt in 5??
Do I recall a BaL on the Violin Concerto?? If so, definitely a left-field choice.
Eine Alpensinfonie
03-03-12, 04:56
Re #2, looking at the archives, it appears that the 4th Symphony was reviewed on 14th October 2000 with the following recommendation:-
Nielsen: Symphony No.4, “The Inextinguishable” David Fanning
First Choice (historic): The Danish Radio Symphony DANACORD DACOCD 351-353 (3-CD)
Orchestra, Thomas Jensen (conductor) (DISCOVERY RECORDS)
(rec. live in 1952; c/w Symphonies Nos.1-3, 5 & 6 with
conductors Erik Tuxen & Launy Grondahl)
It will interesting to see whether there has been any change.
mikealdren
03-03-12, 10:23
I don't remember a Violin Concerto, it would make an excellent choice although my favourite performance (and a favourite of David Fanning IIRC) with Tibor Varga has never reappeared on CD
Mike
LeMartinPecheur
03-03-12, 10:29
Hurrah, excellent first choice (SFSO/ Blomstedt) - I don't have to lash out any more money!
Though some of Mr Fanning's reasons for disqualifying the new Colin Davis close to the finishing line - too heavy brass and percussion - rather encourage me to try it:smiley::ok::winkeye:
To be just a bit picky with DF's presentation, I felt he was rather unhelpful in his final comments on the historic Jensen version from the 50s which won last time, as noted above. Throughout the review he was very complimentary about it, but bemoaned the under-recording of the timpani. In the last movement he included Jensen as one of the conductors who got over the excitement and drama well, yet he didn't demonstrate this with a clip. I couldn't help wondering how Jensen did this in the key bits if his timps were inaudible and thought we really needed to see (hear) whether we could live with the balance in such crucial passages as the timpani duels.
Though some of Mr Fanning's reasons for disqualifying the new Colin Davis close to the finishing line - too heavy brass and percussion - rather encourage me to try it:smiley::ok::winkeye:I totally agree, LMP :ok:
That's the sign of a good BaL for me - you hear things you've not heard before and make up your own mind, not dependent on whether or not it's the reviewer's favourite :ok:
Recently I've listened to and enjoyed the Grondahl on Spotify and I certainly will buy the Davis/LSO and perhaps the Rattle and Dudamel versions in due course (aka when they become ludicrously cheap :biggrin:). I'll also get the recommended Blomstedt set. A potentially expensive morning then :sadface: :smiley:
Did the BBCSO and Osmo Vanska on DVD get a mention?
LeMartinPecheur
03-03-12, 11:13
Did the BBCSO and Osmo Vanska on DVD get a mention?Salymap: I presume you mean the BBC MM one? If so, no, presumably because it doesn't count as commercially available. Vanska's BBCSSO CD did pretty well, but IIRC got eliminated because DF felt the 'slow mov't' was too subdued.
ferneyhoughgeliebte
03-03-12, 11:16
Re #2, looking at the archives, it appears that the 4th Symphony was reviewed on 14th October 2000 with the following recommendation:-
...
It will interesting to see whether there has been any change.
?
So, twelve years ago, this same reviewer recommended a version that today he found fault with, preferring a version that was available twelve years ago that he then (presumably) found fault with?!
Shall we all just hang around for another twelve years when he'll choose the Davis?
Norfolk Born
03-03-12, 11:28
Well done, Herbert and his Californians! I have all 6 Nielsen symphonies with these forces, and think they're all wonderfully played (even the tricky, enigmatic 6th).
LeMartinPecheur
03-03-12, 12:01
?
So, twelve years ago, this same reviewer recommended a version that today he found fault with, preferring a version that was available twelve years ago that he then (presumably) found fault with?!
Shall we all just hang around for another twelve years when he'll choose the Davis? In a decision-making process where I think we all(*) agree there are no 'scientific' right answers, aren't critics allowed to change their minds???
(*)With the honourable exception of Sidney Grew of course, with his unequalled ability to rank all composers objectively - see the old BBCR3 board!:yikes::winkeye:
ferneyhoughgeliebte
03-03-12, 12:09
In a decision-making process where I think we all(*) agree there are no 'scientific' right answers, aren't critics allowed to change their minds???
(*)With the honourable exception of Sidney Grew of course, with his unequalled ability to rank all composers objectively - see the old BBCR3 board!:yikes::winkeye:
:laugh: Yes, of course (as John Steane infamously did when he spent a good deal of his second survey of Tristan & Isolde pointing out the flaws in the version he'd recommended in his first!) - but it would've been useful to hear what reservations he had the first time round that he now feels aren't valid.
Flosshilde
03-03-12, 12:27
Have there been any other Nielsen symphonies featured in BaL?
There was one on the fifth not many years ago (can't remember when), which introduced me to it - not a work I would have been interested in, but I was cleaning the bathroom & was able to concentrate on it (BaL I mean) & was very excited by it. I have a feeling that it was a recording by Bernstein that 'won'. (But I bought the CD set that includes the current 'winner' eventually)
?
So, twelve years ago, this same reviewer recommended a version that today he found fault with, preferring a version that was available twelve years ago that he then (presumably) found fault with?!
Shall we all just hang around for another twelve years when he'll choose the Davis?
I know what you mean, fhg - but as the man said, only a fool never changes his mind. I have no problem with that - it might have been preferable had Mr Fanning acknowledged the change and explained it.
I completely agree with LMP and Ammy about the drawback identified in the Davis being rather a turn on than a turn off... but I think I shall remain true to the Blomstedt which I've raved about since it came out. One of those recordings of a piece with which one compares all others, to the latters' detriment by and large :magic: :magic: :magic:
Brassbandmaestro
03-03-12, 16:07
Well done, Herbert and his Californians! I have all 6 Nielsen symphonies with these forces, and think they're all wonderfully played (even the tricky, enigmatic 6th).
I am also glad that Blomsted and the San Fransisco Symphony won the accolade! It is a fine cycle in genral, really.
Noting the word 'historic' in the para from the BAL archives quoted above for the October 2000 recommendation
Nielsen: Symphony No.4, “The Inextinguishable” David Fanning
First Choice (historic): The Danish Radio Symphony DANACORD DACOCD 351-353 (3-CD)
Orchestra, Thomas Jensen (conductor) (DISCOVERY RECORDS)
I wonder in fact whether the archive is complete - if he made an historic first choice, presumably he chose a modern recording too. That isn't mentioned... :erm:
Eine Alpensinfonie
04-03-12, 10:42
That puzzled me too.
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