Copland: Fanfare? (Concert from Edinburgh, 11/09/2018)

[Pulcinella]

From the BBC website about tonight's (11/09/2018) concert (my emboldening):

Aaron Copland's Third Symphony has been described as 'the greatest American Symphony' by Serge Koussevitsky who commissioned it. It includes his famous 'Fanfare for the Common Man which opens the last movement and somehow evokes the wide open plains of America without any overt use of folk or popular material.

Well, not really!
The two are related but the Fanfare is a stand-alone piece.

That apart, it looks like an interesting concert.
Was any forumite there?

Chávez – Symphony No 2 ‘Sinfonia india’
Tchaikovsky - Piano Concerto No 1
Copland - Symphony No 3

Orchestra of the Americas
Carlos Miguel Prieto, conductor
Gabriela Montero, piano

[cloughie]

From the BBC website about tonight's (11/09/2018) concert (my emboldening):

Aaron Copland's Third Symphony has been described as 'the greatest American Symphony' by Serge Koussevitsky who commissioned it. It includes his famous 'Fanfare for the Common Man which opens the last movement and somehow evokes the wide open plains of America without any overt use of folk or popular material.

Well, not really!
The two are related but the Fanfare is a stand-alone piece.

Which was the chicken and which the egg?

[Pulcinella]

Which was the chicken and which the egg?

I suddenly wondered that after posting, and then wondered if my comment is actually warranted.
I think that they are sufficiently different to be right in saying that the fanfare is not included in the symphony as such, but will eat humble pie if necessary.


PS: The Fanfare, commissioned by the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, was written in 1942 and first performed in 1943 (conducted by Eugene Goosens).
The symphony is later (1944–1946), and it would be more accurate to say that the introduction to the last movement is based on the Fanfare.

[cloughie]

I suddenly wondered that after posting, and then wondered if my comment is actually warranted.
I think that they are sufficiently different to be right in saying that the fanfare is not included in the symphony as such, but will eat humble pie if necessary.

Fanfare was written in 1942, Sym 3 in 1946. Probably best then to say that Copland reused or quoted the Fanfare when composing his 3rd Symphony.

[Pulcinella]

Fanfare was written in 1942, Sym 3 in 1946. Probably best then to say that Copland reused or quoted the Fanfare when composing his 3rd Symphony.

Your posting coincided with my PS!

[Pabmusic]

"Chicken or egg"? Well, we've always known the answer to that one. Eggs pre-dated chickens (and all birds, come to that).

Likewise the Fanfare pre-dated the symphony. And as to whether Copland used the one in the other - of course he did, every bit as much as Elgar used Nimrod in The Music Makers. In neither case is their use identical, but how picky do we get here?

[Pulcinella]

"Chicken or egg"? Well, we've always known the answer to that one. Eggs pre-dated chickens (and all birds, come to that).

Likewise the Fanfare pre-dated the symphony. And as to whether Copland used the one in the other - of course he did, every bit as much as Elgar used Nimrod in The Music Makers. In neither case is their use identical, but how picky do we get here?

But would you say 'The Music Makers includes Nimrod'?
Just seemed a bit sloppy to me: 'The opening of the last movement is based on' would have been better.

[cloughie]

But would you say 'The Music Makers includes Nimrod'?
Just seemed a bit sloppy to me: 'The opening of the last movement is based on' would have been better.

Sorted!

[Pabmusic]

But would you say 'The Music Makers includes Nimrod'?
Just seemed a bit sloppy to me: 'The opening of the last movement is based on' would have been better.

And I would agree wholeheartedly.

[Suffolkcoastal]

Much of the material in the finale is actually derived from the 'Fanfare', as is some of the material in the other movements. Some of the actual ideas for the Symphony go back several years' further and most likely this applies for the 'Fanfare' too. They probably were both worked from the same sketches & this would make the incorporation of the material in its 'Fanfare form' thematically & structually logical.

[Pulcinella]

Much of the material in the finale is actually derived from the 'Fanfare', as is some of the material in the other movements. Some of the actual ideas for the Symphony go back several years' further and most likely this applies for the 'Fanfare' too. They probably were both worked from the same sketches & this would make the incorporation of the material in its 'Fanfare form' thematically & structually logical.

Thanks for this.
Listening just now, I wondered if I did indeed need a helping of humble (apple and cinnamon?) pie, but without a score of either work I couldn't tell if the Fanfare was completely incorporated in the symphony or not.
I nearly put the original post in the Musical questions and answers thread, worded a bit differently (so a question), but you seem to have provided the answer here anyway!

[makropulos]

Much of the material in the finale is actually derived from the 'Fanfare', as is some of the material in the other movements. Some of the actual ideas for the Symphony go back several years' further and most likely this applies for the 'Fanfare' too. They probably were both worked from the same sketches & this would make the incorporation of the material in its 'Fanfare form' thematically & structually logical.

The piano sketch for the Fanfare is dated 1942, and the piano sketch for the Third Symphony is dated 1944-46 - both in Copland's hand (both are available online, complete, on the Library of Congress website).

[Serial_Apologist]

Nobody has mentioned the Chavez symphony, which I knew already, and have always found very impressive.

[Suffolkcoastal]

This may be but recent research has shown ideas common to the Symphony were sketched as early as 1940. The opening fanfare like theme in the symphony's scherzo was actually part of a discarded idea for the Goossens Fanfare commission. This reinforces my belief that ideas for the symphony and fanfare material derived from the same earlier sketches.

[makropulos]

This may be but recent research has shown ideas common to the Symphony were sketched as early as 1940. The opening fanfare like theme in the symphony's scherzo was actually part of a discarded idea for the Goossens Fanfare commission. This reinforces my belief that ideas for the symphony and fanfare material derived from the same earlier sketches.

That's very interesting. Can you point us at the recent research which goes into this?