Sun 15 May - Mahler Symphony no.2 in C minor

[3rd Viennese School]

The above symphony is on Discovering Music this Sunday 15th May at 1700. Should be interesting. As regular readers will know, this was my first Mahler Symphony, in 1995. I was introduced to it by my schizophrenic manic depressive neighbour downstairs. I started off wanting to record just the Scherzo, cause of that weird flute tune.
Anyway, taped the whole thing (and also no.6) and explored it on a trip to Epping Forest, and then hence to and fro work. I was especially interested in the layout of that first mvt.

So we will see what thoughts Stephen Johnson has on this on Sunday!

3VS

[french frank]

Will be good to hear what thoughts you have on SJ's thoughts too!

As regular readers will know, this was my first Mahler Symphony, in 1995.

You are indeed the Gilbert Kaplan of this forum ...

[3rd Viennese School]

I’m a bit late in coming back to this. Busy week. I did hear it on Sunday. It was good mostly. It did however concentrate a lot more on philosophy and Religion (well, it is a religious symphony!) than on the actual themes and notes which always interest me in these programmes. And lots of references to the fact it was vast! Huge! And vast as well! But could have they done with 2 programmes? One for philosophy and one for the notes?

Originanaly, when I played mvt 1 several times in the exploratory stages I started to notice the themes more and more and how they changed through out the mvt. Especially Der der derder derrr!

It was good listening to the surprise recording from 1923 which sounded like the Salvation army recorded in someone’s front room! And you could still get a feel for the music!

The excerpt they played was one of my favourite bits in the symphony. Mvt 1 climax of the development section. After the 2 crashes the music goes up and as it goes back down twice you get the brass alongside going down in odd notes. Then eventually the Der der derder derrr! Everytime you hear that it plays something different afterwards, and at the climax end of development it sounds like it’s got really frustrated and you get the hammer house of horror type music!
Yet no one mentioned any of this.

After that “curtain down” end of mvt 1 , the second mvt sounds very ironic. Like mvt 1 hadn’t even happened!

The scherzo (what a name- In ruhig flessender bewegung!) was what attracted me to my first Mahler symphony. Note the whole Scherzo is in sonata form with a long development section! Also note there is a long held woodwind note and you also get this in the scherzo of no.6! This wasn’t mentioned by anyone either.

I’m not convinced by the song but that’s just me.

The 30- 36 minute finale is in sonata form. In the development section we get bits of the development of mvt 1! And the singing doesn’t start until the recap!

And, above all, the symphony starts in C minor and end in E flat major!

Well, that was 3VS’s thoughts on one of Mahler’s biggest symphonies!

3VS

[Roehre]

Though interesting I found it a bit disappointing that there were three guests who were more than capable to express their interesting thoughts about the work, but that they were asked only superficial (IMO) questions, and that they were allowed only just over 45 minutes to discuss the whole. Why not an hour-and-a-half for this work, as is standard practice for Discovering Music?

I concur with 3VS that two programmes (as 3VS proposes, or alternatively: one about the music/notes, one about the philosophical, political, religious as well as the historical backgrounds) would have been much more interesting than what was presented now.

What I consider to be a missed chance is that this is one of the very few works where we can discover which compostional avenues were open to Mahler and which he eventually chose, by comparing the development section of the Todtenfeier with the 1st mvt of the 2nd Symphony. More so as the former was broadcast in its entirety.

Other aspects (not repeating 3VS's);
the 5 movement structure which it shares with 5, 7 and 10, with 1 originally being in 5mvts, and Mahler considering making the Tragic a 5-mvt symphony as well;
its premiere history as 2 is the only symphony of which movements were presented to the public (by Richard Strauss !) before the work's eventual premiere (and IIRC before the finale had been completed);
Beethoven's (3, 9) and Brahms' (Gesang der Parzen op.89) influences next to Wagner's

Given the limitations, it was an enjoyable broadcast.

[amateur51]

Will be good to hear what thoughts you have on SJ's thoughts too!

You are indeed the Gilbert Kaplan of this forum ...

Not H*y*m*a*n of that ilk, ff?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_Kaplan

[3rd Viennese School]

Listening to Todtenfeier was weird. It all sounds exactly the same as usual until nearly half way through so you think youre listening to regular Mahler 2. Then from the last part of that 10 minute exposition its different.
The start of development where you have the start of the mvt again had orchestral bits missing. Then it did extra things until it got to the "climax" section that we all know and love.

3VS

[Roehre]

Listening to Todtenfeier was weird. It all sounds exactly the same as usual until nearly half way through so you think youre listening to regular Mahler 2. Then from the last part of that 10 minute exposition its different.
The start of development where you have the start of the mvt again had orchestral bits missing. Then it did extra things until it got to the "climax" section that we all know and love.
3VS

If you would like to follow Todtenfeier in a regular Mahler 2 score:
the main structural cuts/additions start at bar 223 [=3 bars before 14 (i.e. the 3rd bar on p.28 of the Universal Study score)]
and last until bar 258 [=4 bars after 16 (i.e. the first bar of the second system on p.32)]