Prom 52: Tuesday 23rd August at 7.30 p.m. (Prokofiev, Dutilleux)

[Chris Newman]

Interesting to hear mention of current orchestral standards. I am inclined to agree with makropoulos and his summary of the LSO, LPO and RPO in the last forty years.

I think the regional orchestras and BBCPO are on a high at the moment. The CBSO, RLPO, BSO are as good as they were under the likes of Rattle, Groves and Silvestri. The Halle is as good as when Glorious John was in charge. The BBCPO has been on a high ever since Jan-Pascal Tortelier made them into the best ever French Orchestra. They have changed nationality and are a superb Italian/Russian band now. The BBCNOW and BBCSSO can be extraordinarily good as well. I have not heard the RSNO live for a long time.

The ROHCGO and ENO orchestras are in stupendous states of health. Because they rarely play outside the opera houses we forget how bloody good they are. I would say that Haitink and Pappano have lifted the ROHCGO to the position of joint third best orchestra in Britain. Edward Gardner has maintained the high standards of Paul Daniel, Mark Elder and Charles Mackerras at ENO. Colin Davis and Haitink set similar standards with the LSO. However, I think that the BBCSO has suddenly pulled its socks up to the same level: Jiri Belohlavek is clearly a fine orchestral builder. The top position in my recent experience has to be Esa-Pekka Salonen's Philharmonia which is as high as it was when HvK and Giulini were effectively bosses. I would go as far as saying I do not know any orchestra that can play as well. VPO, BPO, Chicago, Philadelphia...they are mere minnows at the moment.

[makropulos]

Chris, I'm so glad you mentioned the Philharmonia - and very embarrassed that I didn't in my original post. As you say, they are probably the most consistent of the lot, certainly in London. They play wonderfully for Salonen, but then they played at least as wonderfully for Christoph von Dohnányi and their lamented Principal Guest Conductor, Charles Mackerras. I know you admire him as much as I do, and his concerts with the Philharmonia were glorious occasions marked by absolutely wonderful playing from the orchestra as well as superb conducting. Back at the time I was thinking about (70s and 80s) the Philharmonia gave many wonderful concerts, though I only saw them with Klemperer once and was never terribly excited by his immediate successor - but they had some marvellous guest conductors at that time, and I remember several fabulous evenings at the Festival Hall. (One that sticks in the memory for some reason was an absolutely stunning performance of "Belshazzar's Feast" in the early 70s conducted by Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos - it was knockout stuff, and this was at the same time as Previn was giving superb performances of the same piece - but this one, for me, was even better). There was also a terrific Beethoven 9 with the [New] Philharmonia conducted by Boult in 1971 (on his birthday - 8 April - if I remember rightly) which I loved as an eager young concert-goer, but which the critics didn't like because he took the slow movement "too fast" - how times have changed, but Boult was always convinced that the slow movements of Beethoven 6 and 9 (especially) needed to be more flowing than was the norm at the time.

[prokkyshosty]

The last time I was a regular concertgoer in London was 1991-94 -- and if perhaps today is not a "golden age" then at least its a massive recovery from that period, which if I remember correctly wasn't exactly the best of times. The LPO was suffering through the Franz Welser-Most debacle; the RPO (in my memory anyway) was giving very shoddy concerts under Ashkenazy; and the LSO seemed to be walled up in the Barbican with Michael Tilson-Thomas doing a lot of arcane programming. I do remember articles saying 'the LSO can do better than MTT' etc.

Excepted from all this is the Philharmonia, which never failed to thrill me back then, under a young Esa-Pekka, Neeme Jarvi, and (speaking of Belshazzar's Feast) a couple of wonderful concerts under Sir David Willcocks that I shall never forget.

[3rd Viennese School]

I cant believe I still haven’t seen Prokofiev symphony no.5 live! I’ve seen 1, 2 and 6. You think they would do this one in Chatham.
Good to see it back at the Proms. A good assertive performance. I did think that the scherzo was so fast you couldn’t hear that tune properly. The trio- what musical invention. Unfortunatly, in the rowdy final stages of the finale the tritone brass before the final chord was too quiet- did anyone else think this?

3VS

[Ferretfancy]

The last time I was a regular concertgoer in London was 1991-94 -- and if perhaps today is not a "golden age" then at least its a massive recovery from that period, which if I remember correctly wasn't exactly the best of times. The LPO was suffering through the Franz Welser-Most debacle; the RPO (in my memory anyway) was giving very shoddy concerts under Ashkenazy; and the LSO seemed to be walled up in the Barbican with Michael Tilson-Thomas doing a lot of arcane programming. I do remember articles saying 'the LSO can do better than MTT' etc.

Excepted from all this is the Philharmonia, which never failed to thrill me back then, under a young Esa-Pekka, Neeme Jarvi, and (speaking of Belshazzar's Feast) a couple of wonderful concerts under Sir David Willcocks that I shall never forget.

I started serious concert going in the early 1950's, and regularly since then. I think one of the reasons for a golden age back then was that orchestras had fewer guest conductors and more concerts with their principal conductors. So we had a long reign of Beecham with the RPO, Klempere with the Philharmonia, preceded by Karajan, Barbirolli with the Halle and so on. That generation of conductors had many years of experience in which they could grow into their art. I have no complaints about the likes of Jurowski and his generation, but we are probably not hearing them at their best yet.

[Brassbandmaestro]

Do people think that the BBCSO is not, gerally at it's best, this season?

[makropulos]

Do people think that the BBCSO is not, gerally at it's best, this season?

I wouldn't say that after listening to the playing for Bychkov in the Verdi Requiem, or the Grainger/Elgar/Strauss concert with Andrew Davis. The Bychkov Mahler 6 with the BBCSO in a couple of days' time will be an interesting yardstick - I really hope they play well for him.

The problem with the BBCSO is that "its best" has always been a rather variable thing: for some conductors they play wonderfully (in the fairly recent past I'm thinking of Gunter Wand, or Svetlanov, among others) and I remember that being the case way back in the 1970s too. But the same orchestra is capable of sounding pretty shabby on an off night, usually with a conductor they don't respond to. That doesn't mean one they "like" necessarily - for instance, even though they certainly didn't like Bernstein's approach to the Enigma Variations, they played superbly for him.

The situation now seems quite similar: the playing for Bychkov at the Prom the other week, and at the Barbican earlier in the year, was very fine - I didn't hear any sign of it not being at its best in either of those concerts.

[Rasluap]

I heartily agree with makropulos, and would add that the playing for Wigglesworth in the Britten concert was outstanding.

In an earlier message in this thread I mentioned an impressive studio performance at Maida Vale a few months' back of Prokofiev 5 with JB conducting. As Chris Newman rightly points out above, JB is a fine orchestral builder and has quietly enhanced the qualities of this orchestra.

[alywin]

I was in the gallery for this Prom, and thought the sound was very muddy indeed, certainly for the Prokofiev - and unusually so for my usual experiences up there. It was one of those times when I decided that the beautiful bits I so love in the 5th weren't worth listening to the rest for. It was also distinctly on the slow side - I seem to remember that the tape I have of Jansons and the LPO comes in at around 38 minutes, and I'd usually have thought of Gergiev as the faster conductor of the two. This was much longer. But at least I did manage to conclude that, contrary to what I thought, there is actually nothing of Cinderella in that one - it just seems to inhabit the same sound world at times.

Was Slava's Fanfare by any chance played at the Rostropovich 75th Birthday concert at the Barbican? (The one that went on for nearly 3 hours) If so, I may well have it on video somewhere ...

[jayne lee wilson]

Pulling a few Prokofiev 5ths off the shelves at random, Ansermet comes in at 40'54, Rattle at 43'22, Karajan 43'29, Szell 38'07. All great performances.

Gergiev came in somewhere around 43-44 minutes (didn't have a stop-watch handy!), but if it seemed to outstay its welcome it wasn't only because of tempi was it...

What was that, alywin? A 3-hour fanfare for Rostropovich at the Barbican?!!

I was in the gallery for this Prom, and thought the sound was very muddy indeed, certainly for the Prokofiev - and unusually so for my usual experiences up there. It was one of those times when I decided that the beautiful bits I so love in the 5th weren't worth listening to the rest for. It was also distinctly on the slow side - I seem to remember that the tape I have of Jansons and the LPO comes in at around 38 minutes, and I'd usually have thought of Gergiev as the faster conductor of the two. This was much longer. But at least I did manage to conclude that, contrary to what I thought, there is actually nothing of Cinderella in that one - it just seems to inhabit the same sound world at times.

Was Slava's Fanfare by any chance played at the Rostropovich 75th Birthday concert at the Barbican? (The one that went on for nearly 3 hours) If so, I may well have it on video somewhere ...