Prom 67: Sunday 4th September at 7.00 p.m. (Beethoven's Missa Solemnis)

[Caliban]

Slow, dogged tempos;
Choir often a bit 'flat at the top'.
Very vibrato-laden, wobbly soloists ( including the solo violinist, LSO leader)
Q. What was 'any good' about this performance?
A. Some of the instrumental details; ( superb trombones and horns) plus the occasional bit of well-together' choral singing.

Frequently, though, a 'painful listen' ( mostly due to the vocal soloists' wobbliness!)
Marks 'out of ten': 4

I tuned into BBC4 briefly - I couldn't take the solo line-up either. Enjoyed the trombone trio. But I quickly tuned out and cancelled the timer recording I'd set for the early hours repeat... Not great.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well I thought it was wonderful. However, I do have some sympathy with the comments about the soloists, but I think that was a case of too-close microphone placement. I suspect it sounded fine in the RAH.

"Slow dogged tempos". It's a mass, not a ballet. :doh:

[Dave2002]

Well I thought it was wonderful. However, I do have some sympathy with the comments about the soloists, but I think that was a case of too-close microphone placement. I suspect it sounded fine in the RAH.

"Slow dogged tempos". It's a mass, not a ballet. :doh:

I thought it was pretty impressive in the hall, but I have to confess I don't really understand what it's about, or why Beethoven wrote it. Is there any evidence that Beethoven was religious in any conventional sense? It seems there is some, and he was at least notionally a Catholic for most of his life. I was going to suggest that what we know about Beethoven's character seems at odds with any conventional observance of religion, but now I'm not sure.

[PhilipT]

I was in the Hall, third row of the Arena. To me it was a Prom of two halves - everything taut and together to the end of the Gloria, with the chorus really knowing what they had to do, and I was beginning to think it might turn out to be a highlight of the season, but it seemed to lose that tension and coherence during the Credo. Also, I wondered how much opportunity the replacement soprano had had to rehearse with the other soloists.

[jayne lee wilson]

Hello everyone, did you miss me?
Thought not. Oh, don't worry, I'm used to it.
Not much promming recently... 89-year old mother to care for (sergeant in armaments factory supplying Battle of Britain Spitfires), business to run from home... etc...

Relevance? Well Dave2002, you're asking the right questions!

Was Beethoven juxtaposing the human with the Godly - well, the human with the concept of something "beyond"?

The violin solo in the Benedictus may represent our need for feeling - for meaning, warm and familiar in the context of formal structures of belief; and what about the "human, all too human" incarnatus and crucifixus, the bloody flesh, following the triumphant affirmation of the Gloria?
Is it asking more questions than it can possibly answer, that makes the work great?

Dona nobis pacem!!!
This text has never been set to such aggressive, questioning music - and seems terribly, horribly relevant now, relevant to the Palestinian-supporting protesters in the hall last Thursday, aggressively demanding recognition for their desire for peace...

Performance? Accept it on its own, grand, long-breathed, terms... whatever its local imperfections it was a great statement.
Technically? Very close setting of soloists at the start, improved in stereo perspectives later, otherwise OK, clear, dynamic chorus and well-balanced orchestra.

I thought it was pretty impressive in the hall, but I have to confess I don't really understand what it's about, or why Beethoven wrote it. Is there any evidence that Beethoven was religious in any conventional sense? It seems there is some, and he was at least notionally a Catholic for most of his life. I was going to suggest that what we know about Beethoven's character seems at odds with any conventional observance of religion, but now I'm not sure.

[Keraulophone]

Choir often a bit 'flat at the top'... plus the occasional bit of well-together' choral singing... Frequently... a 'painful listen'

This is one of the most taxing pieces for any amateur choir to sing. Beethoven is particularly merciless with the upper voices, so 'a bit flat at the top' is par for the course. Even the Ode to Joy, despite its relative brevity, is often 'flat at the top'. On the whole, I thought the choirs here had the requisite impact and did an admirable job... better than the soloists, IMO. A HIP would no doubt be a 'painful listen' for Colin Davis, who has regularly voiced his disapproval of 'out of tune' period instruments. I thought he had included the Benedictus among his Desert island Discs (1967), but on checking, it was actually the Sanctus (Toscanini). Perhaps he couldn't, at the time, find a recording of the Benedictus which lived up the Beethoven's vision.

The Mass in C is so much easier to digest - an under-performed masterpiece.

[amac4165]

I was in the Hall, third row of the Arena. To me it was a Prom of two halves - everything taut and together to the end of the Gloria, with the chorus really knowing what they had to do, and I was beginning to think it might turn out to be a highlight of the season, but it seemed to lose that tension and coherence during the Credo. Also, I wondered how much opportunity the replacement soprano had had to rehearse with the other soloists.

I was in the 4 or 5 row arena left right in front of the soloists - I would pretty much concur with that. Things did get strained a bit in the second half and it did fall away to certain extent. Overall I think the balance between religiosity and dramatic was spot on - I don't think I really appreciated how difficult a work it is to perform until yesterday.

[Ventilhorn]

Slow, dogged tempos;
Choir often a bit 'flat at the top'.
Very vibrato-laden, wobbly soloists ( including the solo violinist, LSO leader) ....
........Frequently, though, a 'painful listen' ( mostly due to the vocal soloists' wobbliness!)
Marks 'out of ten': 4

Methinks that Waldhorn is "shooting from the HIP", again. ...... but I think his complaints are quite justified.

There are some very good young singers in this country. Unfortunately, concert promoters in general seem to go for names rather than performance. If, God forbid, I were ever asked to conduct the Verdi Requiem, Beethoven's Nº 9, Choral Fantasia or the work under discussion here, I would want to audition the four soloists; individually and as a quartet, before deciding who should be entrusted with these difficult vocal tasks.

I wonder if Sir Colin (a great choral conductor and Beethoven interpreter) was consulted before the soloists were engaged?

VH

[Dave2002]

I discovered this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01460k5 - though I've not heard it all yet. Whether it throws any more light on the work I'm not sure yet - but it might.

[rauschwerk]

"Slow dogged tempos". It's a mass, not a ballet. :doh:

Oh, come on. The masses of Bach, Haydn and Mozart have plenty of fast music in them. The fact is that Colin Davis had already turned into a slow Beethoven conductor by the time of his symphony cycle with the Dresden orchestra.