Byrd, Andrew Carwood & the Cardinall's Musick

[DracoM]

That last sentence is at least worth a murmur. Ecclesiastically, maybe, but musically?
The travelling musicians in Europe of many nationalities, mixing, listening, learning? Were we a musical island in all senses in and after H8's reign??

[Miles Coverdale]

Were we a musical island in all senses in and after H8's reign??

No, we weren't, but as I tried to show, Continental influences were relatively slow to catch on here.

Indeed, in the 15th century, the direction of musical influence was actually the reverse: far more English works survive in Continental manuscripts (eg the Aosta and Trent codices) than vice versa. But should we infer that Italians were therefore singing Dunstable (for example) using 'English' Latin? Surely not.

A later example of Continental influence here would be that of Alfonso Ferrabosco on Byrd's work, and it is known that a number of foreign musicians were employed a the royal court in the latter half of the 16th century.

My main point was that, even if there were 'Papal nuncios by the dozen' (centred mainly in London, one imagines), that is no reason to suppose that the whole of England was singing its Latin with Italianate pronunciation.

[Chris Watson]

This is all very interesting, but having spent more than quite a few interminable hours with directors such as a previously mentioned Brummie (who I admire greatly and merely disagree with him on this issue) I have yet to be persuaded that 'authentic' pronunciation is anything more than a red herring that has nothing whatsoever to do with making music, and which more often than not absorbs so much rehearsal time that the music making gets left behind.

[ardcarp]

I fear that, just as with changing fashions of HIPP, we shall have to follow our gut feelings about Latin pronunciation. I can remember my exhilaration at breaking away from trad church Latin as a student and singing a Mozart Coronation Mass in what we supposed to be the Austro-German manner, e.g. Tsaylee. Benedeetsimus. It sounded 'right'.

As schoolkids we were perfectly biligual, toggling back and forth between classroom and chapel with no sweat. Can jean or MC explain a little more about how the 'Reformed Classical' proninciation came about? Can one really imagine Caesar saying Waynee weedy weeky? Pythonesque IMO. And was there an element of anti-Roman Catholicism about it?

[ardcarp]

CW. My sympathies. I have to say (as an original member of Ex Cathedra) Jeff had not been seduced by exotic Latins in the 1970s. Had anyone?

[jean]

Can jean or MC explain a little more about how the 'Reformed Classical' proninciation came about? Can one really imagine Caesar saying Waynee weedy weeky? Pythonesque IMO. And was there an element of anti-Roman Catholicism about it?

I don't quite know why people suddenly decided they'd like to know more precisely how the Romans themselves pronounced their language, but they did. If you get hold of a copy of Lewis & Short's Latin dictionary (and I expect the much newer Cambridge Latin Dictionary does the same) you'll find that the first entry under each letter gives a history of the development of the character and of its pronunciation, often with reference to clearly related Greek words. The example that always sticks in my mind is the parallel between Latin vinumand Greek oinos (wine), which does make it pretty well unavoidable that Caesar really did say Waynee weedy weeky.

I found this the other day:

http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/20...nia-opera.html

and it seem I am wrong to see the 'Westminster pronunciation' as an uninterrupted development from English medieval pronunciation of Latin - if Wells is right, the earlier, less well-founded reforms of Erasmus intervened.

[jean]

I have to say (as an original member of Ex Cathedra) Jeff had not been seduced by exotic Latins in the 1970s. Had anyone?

Andrew Parrott?

[Miles Coverdale]

Can jean or MC explain a little more about how the 'Reformed Classical' proninciation came about? Can one really imagine Caesar saying Waynee weedy weeky? Pythonesque IMO.

I agree it sounds odd. I once asked a Classicist how we know that Romans said 'arway' rather than 'arvay' and he said that there are manuscripts which describe how upper-class Romans spoke. Perhaps those of lower social status spoke differently, but I don't know.

In a publication of 1528, Erasmus describes how a Frenchman, speaking Latin, gave a speech of welcome to Emperor Maximilian I. He was assumed to be speaking French as he spoke Latin with such a strong French accent. Among those replying to the speech were a Dane and a Zeelander, whose Latin was pronounced so much like their native languages that 'you would have sworn that neither was speaking Latin'. I imagine the situation was much the same in England.

Italinate pronunciation of Latin in this country gained some ground in the middle of the 19th century through the Oxford Movement. Copeman associates the beginning of pronunciation reform with pressure from Pope Pius X in 1903. However, writing in 1934, Brittain says that 'the Italianate pronunciation does not appear to have made much headway in Anglican Cathedrals or college chapels up to the present.'

As I said before, I would recommend Alison Wray's essay 'The sound of Latin in England before and after the Reformation' (I misquoted the title in a previous post).

[jean]

I once asked a Classicist how we know that Romans said 'arway' rather than 'arvay' and he said that there are manuscripts which describe how upper-class Romans spoke...

I've never heard of any! But see my post above on the pronunciation of 'v' specifically.

As I said before, I would recommend Alison Wray's essay 'The sound of Latin in England before and after the Reformation'

I'd be interested in reading that - have you a reference for it?

[Miles Coverdale]

I can't give you chapter and verse - I'll try and remember to ask him next time I see him.

The Wray essay can be found on Google books by searching for 'Alison Wray the sound of Latin'. That will show you the book it comes from.