Beethoven Eroica - first two chords

[Boilk]

Milton Babbitt pointed out that the notes read from bottom to top of these two chords are Eb G Eb Bb Eb G Bb Eb: exactly the same order in which they appear in the theme from bars 4 - 6.

Trust Milton Babbitt to spot that! BUT, are they exactly the same pitches taking into account at which register (or octave) they appear? I'd be disappointed at Babbitt if not!

And it's probably coincidental anyway, as you'd expect there to be more tonic than dominant and mediant pitches at the beginning of a tonal symphony, in this case 4 tonics versus 2 each of the other. The same wouldn't necessarily be true of a melody.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Trust Milton Babbitt to spot that! BUT, are they exactly the same pitches taking into account at which register (or octave) they appear? I'd be disappointed at Babbitt if not!

I'm not sure what you mean here, Boilk: if you're asking are all notes in the chords at the same pitch and register as the notes in the melody, then prepared to be disappointed! (After all, the melody all lies within the compass of a major sixth, whilst the chords span four octaves.)

And it's probably coincidental anyway, as you'd expect there to be more tonic than dominant and mediant pitches at the beginning of a tonal symphony, in this case 4 tonics versus 2 each of the other. The same wouldn't necessarily be true of a melody.

But, as it is true of this melody, doesn't that rather suggest more than a "coincidence"? (We can't know, of course: but we are talking about Beethoven and one of humanity's finest structures, so "intent" shouldn't be so readily ruled out. AND (and this was what Babbitt was more interested in, I think) the effect on the sound of the opening, and the future progress of the Music is neatly contained in this "coincidence". (Replace them with the subtly different Eb major chord - played staccato - that opens the Fifth Piano Concerto: would this work equally well as the opening of the Eroica?)

Best Wishes.

[3rd Viennese School]

Have they got to the C sharp bit yet?

(C sharp in the Eroica- how controversial! etc etc and so on)

3VS

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

(Replace them with the subtly different Eb major chord - played staccato - that opens the Fifth Piano Concerto: would this work equally well as the opening of the Eroica?)

Hmm! Not that "subtly different": there isn't a fifth in the opening chord of the Emperor!