Similarities in various pieces of music

[vinteuil]

... I see a resemblance between the first of Brahms's two little Sarabandes for piano (composed February 1855) - and Wagner's Ring-Motif. An hommage?

[Roehre]

... I see a resemblance between the first of Brahms's two little Sarabandes for piano (composed February 1855) - and Wagner's Ring-Motif. An hommage?

No, not likely: the sarabandes where not published during Brahms' (and therefore Wagner's) lifteime, let alone in time to be "quoted" by Wagner (and not vice versa).

[Roehre]

There are only so many possible variations of the sequence of notes in a diatonic scale and similarities are bound to occur.

Also, the style and harmonic structure of one composer's composition can be so similar as to suggest a conscious intention to write in another composer's style.

As an example:

There is a sequence of 4 bars in the first movement of Beethoven's 4th piano concerto which sound as if they have been lifted, note for note, from Brahms' 2nd piano concerto; but surely Beethoven's concerto was written first, wasn't it?

So were both of them copying an even earlier composer? Not consciously, I'm sure.

HS

Here Brahms might have been unconsciously influenced by Beethoven, as the former played the latter's 4th concerto quite regularly and is known to have performed it around the time the 2nd concerto was composed.

[MrGongGong]

So yes, a Ph.D thesis in the making

not really a Ph.D as there seems to be no "Thesis" apart from "some music relates to other music" .......... what's the "argument" , the "the history of music is missing this valuable information" ??

[Pabmusic]

The opening of the second movement of Brahms's 3rd Symphony, and the second theme of the overture to Zampa (Herold). They're even scored similarly (clarinet solo over winds). Zampa had received more than 500 performances by the time the symphony came along. The overture's hardly played now, but it used to be very popular indeed.

[MrGongGong]

The bit of the American National Anthem that goes "we wish you a merry Christmas"

[kernelbogey]

[...] Brahms's 1st Symphony contains his own clear homage to that same tune (last movement).

Homage, sampling, quoting, plagiarising.... I'm reflecting on the use of differently nuanced words for the same activity....

Homage is a term often used about scenes in films which deliberately echo the work of another,usually venerated, director. I'm not entirely clear about 'sampling' as it's a practice from a style of music I don't listen to. But in academic life, plagiarism is a serious misdemeanour. What are the ethical considerations in music?

[Roehre]

The opening of the second movement of Brahms's 3rd Symphony, and the second theme of the overture to Zampa (Herold). They're even scored similarly (clarinet solo over winds). Zampa had received more than 500 performances by the time the symphony came along. The overture's hardly played now, but it used to be very popular indeed.

Similarities between the very same opening of Brahms 3 and the opening of Schumann 3 "Rhenish", even acknowledged by Brahms himself.

[Roehre]

Beethoven's Choral Fantasia [1808] contains what sounds like an obvious first attempt at 'that tune' from the last movement of the Ninth.

Which theme itself is a song by Beethoven Seufzer eines Geliebten WoO 118 (1794 or 1795),

[Pabmusic]

Homage, sampling, quoting, plagiarising.... What are the ethical considerations in music?

I'm not so sure there are any. Composers have lifted music from each other quite a lot over the years. In fact it was very common in baroque times. J S Bach was not averse to borrowing from others, for instance. I suppose you can distinguish between (a) something short, upon which you base your own music (the 'In Nomine' phrase by Dunstable, which spawned so many others' music - Gibbons's The Cryes of London, for instance); (b) a quotation used as a quotation (Bartok quoting the Leningrad Symphony in the Concerto for orchestra; (c) an original piece of your own which has features of someone else's music, without being a clear copy (Brahms's 'Beethoven 9' theme in the First Symphony); and (d) an outright crib, or attempt to pass off someone else's work, or just their style, as your own (I can't think of any of these of course).