Osbornes budget

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    Lat, the people you talk about it may have it bad. That's no reason, though, that we should have to saddle those kids with, or brought up to have, some sort of career aspiration, with £40k of debt before they even try to get a decent job.

    Not sure I really get your point. In many areas of work, a salary of £40k is dream world.......and as for long term security..........

    I certainly don't think that being in favour of abolishing age allowance is " bashing the elderly."

    As regarding downsizing by middle age parents,I would say for many people this move has to pay for some cash for retirement, deposits for kids flats, for help towards being able to give up full time work before the ever increasing retirement age, etc etc. There are going to be a LOT of calls on this money.......thats if you can sell you home.

    Incidentally, Graham Parker is brilliant, in my humble opinion.
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

    I am not a number, I am a free man.

    Comment


      and scotty makes a good point, in that, in the end, for those of us who aren't wielding power, there is more that unites us than divides us.

      rise like lions after slumber
      in unvanquishable number........

      you know the rest.
      Some of the finest words ever written
      I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

      I am not a number, I am a free man.

      Comment


        Originally posted by scottycelt View Post
        It would appear the writer would welcome pensioners' retirement reverting to being 'short and miserable' as existed pre-welfare state ...
        It doesn't appear that way to me. He is pointing out that today's pensioner generation is, on the whole, very far from miserable. It has more disposable income than those in their 20s.
        there's a touching concern for some of the most weak and vulnerable in society. Mind you, the Money Editor of the Guardian has probably a nice cushy pension himself to look forward to in 2017, unlike so many others. who have to settle for the bare minimum.
        Well, they have nothing to do with the point under discussion, which is the fairness or otherwise of the phasing out of ARA. If they're very weak they will be entitled to a non means tested tax free Attendance Allowance which they are allowed to use to pay for help or just pocket themselves. Plus pension credit. Plus council tax discounts.
        These same pensioners went through two big recessions accompanied by sky-high mortgage-rates, unlike today when those are at a record-low and likely to remain so for some time.
        True. They also had sky-high interest rates. My aunt had her nest egg invested in a building society getting 10% p.a in the late 80s.
        It is quite extraordinary how old-age pensioners are now portrayed in some quarters as virtual 'scroungers', as they reap some modest rewards from a lifetime's often unhealthy graft, whilst bringing up today's little darlings and grand-darlings, before finally heading for the Great Retirement Home in the Sky, with the cry of 'good riddance' ringing in their ears ... another sad, sad reflection of much of the embedded 'yoof culture' of modern society, imho.
        But where ... Oh, I see! You're pulling my leg, aren't you?
        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

        Comment


          many people in their 70's may have had high interest rates, but 30% inflation paid for most of their mortage in a few years.

          as someone said, each generation faces their own challenges........
          I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

          I am not a number, I am a free man.

          Comment


            Originally posted by teamsaint View Post
            I certainly don't think that being in favour of abolishing age allowance is " bashing the elderly."
            .............Incidentally, Graham Parker is brilliant, in my humble opinion.
            Hey Lord, Don't Ask Me Questions. I am more concerned about the zeitgeist - sorry about that word, I often write it, never say it - than the Chancellor's specific policies this week. I would like to think that the idea of youngsters cheering is a media myth but I expect it is there among the very well-off and the very poor. It is not a good thing for anyone, including for many of them.

            I was far from a saint when younger. However, as someone who probably had more education by the age of 18 than my grandparents had in a lifetime, I felt that there was much that I could learn from them. While in their basic houses, neither owned, I had an equal education to anything in the system. I loved them and respected them. I also enjoyed their company.

            In the neighbourhood, I visited the elderly. They gave me sweets. There wasn't anything financial. It was the giving thing, the learning. There was always a welcome. In a white area, in a white school, it was how I learnt about Sri Lankan culture. Two elderly sisters living together, one previously married, the other not. Other visits were less exotic but the experience was always rich.

            I find that I go several shades of apoplectic on hearing about modern difference. I wonder what has gone so badly wrong in families that people would sell off their own parents and siblings if they could. Some of it comes from how middle aged parents are towards their parents, how their parents are towards them, how these people are towards their siblings and their spouses.

            Where such things are rotten, if dressed up in High Street finery, it is little wonder that they have no sense of community. Of course, some save up all of the rough stuff for anyone outside the family unit. But I find it hard even so to believe that the vast majority are that unwell. Some of it is being hyped by the wealthy, the political, and the media people. I'm very much against it.

            Comment


              Originally posted by teamsaint View Post
              I agree with you too.

              The intergenerational stuff will come back to bite us I am afraid....
              They have every right to be very angry about the world they have inherited from older generations.
              It isn't that simple. The excessive tuition fees, imposed progressively by members of successive government who left university with no debt whatsoever, are a serious issue for which MP's show a callous disregard.

              However, young people also inherit a world with a massive infrastructure created for them by their ancestors. Furthermore, they expect material things such a mobile phones as a right.

              Comment


                why isn't it that simple?
                Affording a house is quite unbelievably difficult for many youngsters in many areas.

                and with even more student debt, and a desperately difficult employment market, its not getting better any time soon.
                I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                I am not a number, I am a free man.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by teamsaint View Post
                  why isn't it that simple?
                  Affording a house is quite unbelievably difficult for many youngsters in many areas.

                  and with even more student debt, and a desperately difficult employment market, its not getting better any time soon.
                  The problem with the young generation today is that they just don't realise how unlucky they are.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Beef Oven View Post
                    The problem with the young generation today is that they just don't realise how unlucky they are.


                    Sunshine and Schubert today , Boarders...........enjoy !!
                    Off to work for me
                    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                    I am not a number, I am a free man.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by french frank View Post
                      It doesn't appear that way to me. He is pointing out that today's pensioner generation is, on the whole, very far from miserable. It has more disposable income than those in their 20s.
                      Well, they have nothing to do with the point under discussion, which is the fairness or otherwise of the phasing out of ARA. If they're very weak they will be entitled to a non means tested tax free Attendance Allowance which they are allowed to use to pay for help or just pocket themselves. Plus pension credit. Plus council tax discounts. True. They also had sky-high interest rates. My aunt had her nest egg invested in a building society getting 10% p.a in the late 80s.But where ... Oh, I see! You're pulling my leg, aren't you?
                      My own parents had more disposable income, when I was in my twenties and even later, but they were far from being 'well-off'. They had worked hard all their lives bringing up a family at great sacrifice and in those days nobody appeared to begrudge them a decent retirement, which was entirely due to their own thrift and money discipline when in work (little to do with any small handouts from the State). What is so 'leg-pulling' about that?

                      Everyone can apply for different sorts of benefits if their income falls below a certain level, not just pensioners, and it's single people who get a 25% council tax discount ... this has absolutely nothing to do with a person's retirement status, I believe. There is another 10% discount apparently connected to the number of students living in the property.

                      Your aunt was not so lucky ... she also experienced inflation touching 30% in the 1970s and consistently in the twenties and teens until more recent times ... it is all relative and I'd be astonished if your aunt herself considered that she made any sort of profit (more likely a significant loss) with her 10% (Gross) 'sky-high' interest from her Building Society during the 1970/80s period.

                      You say I miss the point under discussion, whilst you appear to dwell on pensioners (those who earn over £24000 and under £10000) who have nothing to do with those directly affected in between, and which is surely the only relevant point under discussion here!

                      Some pensioners are luckier than others just like any other section of society and if they are all as lucky as some here appear to imagine then it's their children (and hopefully grandchildren) who will be the ultimate beneficiaries?

                      In any case, I still don't see the urgent need to take more money off pensioners earning £10000-£24000 to assist in helping out those millionaires struggling to make ends meet in their modern mansions?

                      I readily confess that this Coalition wheeze is quite beyond my obviously limited comprehension ... I'm with Miliband and Balls on this, irrespective of the grimy politics.

                      Comment


                        I listened to Danny Alexander on BBC1 this morning. It was only recently that I discovered that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury was in fact a Liberal Democrat and not an ultra-right wing Conservative, such were his verbal adhesion to Cameron-speak, when failing to tell the truth about pensions. Yet in this interview, he came across as a thoughtful and intelligent man, without quite so much insincere Coalition-speak.

                        Comment


                          Scottycelt,

                          First, I'm simply pointing out that the two issues which have hit the headlines in the popular press are, in their impact on the tax-payer at the lower end of the income scale (including the pensioners immediately affected by the ARA freeze), relatively minor in actual monetary terms. I would criticise the budget for its general 'Do-Nothing' aspect: it does (a) little to stimulate growth and provide jobs for a younger generation who are already in a dire situation in terms of jobs and future life prospects. It's a 'Keep Your Fingers Crossed and Hope Things Get Better' budget which is utterly, utterly hopeless.

                          But, the pound or so a week (impossible to calculate exactly since inflation is falling and the rate of price rises affects the rise in personal allowance; so we don't know how much ARA would have gone up by next year but won't, but per week it's pretty negligible for pensioners on the incomes that will be affected). It doesn't make the difference between security and poverty: it's not a loss of income, it's not getting an increase, while the rise in the pension itself takes care of inflation.

                          Council Tax Benefit is for people on low incomes with not much in savings: it's quite different from the single person's allowance. It's unlikely to be available to those in the £10,500-£24,000 income bracket since their income is almost twice what the basic pension is, so they either have savings bringing in investment income or an additional occupational pension/annuities.

                          [My aunt is irrelevant to the general argument, but she did very well in her old age: she bought her house for a few thousands many years earlier and sold it at the height of the late 80s property boom, which enabled her to go into a care home and pay her own fees until she died four years later. Apart from the interest on the proceeds of the house sale, she had only her state pension which she'd lived on for over 20 years.]

                          You say I miss the point under discussion, whilst you appear to dwell on pensioners (those who earn over £24000 and under £10000) who have nothing to do with those directly affected in between, and which is surely the only relevant point under discussion here!
                          Actually, what I'm trying to say is that, although there may be exceptional personal circumstances, the monetary loss to those pensioners is not a great deal in terms of what they can buy or what they have to do without. Their pension has gone up in line with prices so they are not worse off.

                          In any case, I still don't see the urgent need to take more money off pensioners earning £10000-£24000 to assist in helping out those millionaires struggling to make ends meet in their modern mansions?
                          I think neither of those two changes should have been made, but arguably the £2.5bn annual bank levy has done more to fund the 5p reduction in top rate tax than the temporary freeze in PA for pensioners. My complaint is that people are concentrating on the emotive issues rather than the lack of any fundamental economic changes which would secure the public services which pensioners and the low paid rely on more than anyone else.
                          It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Beef Oven View Post
                            The problem with the young generation today is that they just don't realise how unlucky they are.


                            I think that there is a huge "disconnect" between the rhetoric and reality of these issues. Put simply people like my parents, both retired on pensions , owning a house etc were lucky to be born at the right time, missing having to actually fight in WW2 and living through a period of relatively stable employment and a time when "saving" money DID bring rewards. Today the reality is that no matter how hard one works or how much one saves or acts "prudently" (whatever that means but I guess it means NOT becoming a musician in my case ) the benefits that many (NOT ALL !) people now in their 70's enjoy simply won't be available or affordable. This is , of course, so outside the experience of more or less everyone in the government who have huge stashes of dosh behind them. For politicians to witter on about how we should all save money and "plan" for old age completely ignores the reality for most people. Yesterday I was working with a violinist from one of the big London orchestras, in terms of classical music she is one of the most successful players with work for 6 days most weeks, regardless of how hard she works many of the "ordinary" things that many expect are simply unaffordable (pensions, sick pay etc etc ). SO if it is impossible for someone who is that successful then what about people in more "ordinary" occupations ?

                            Given camerons pathological lack of empathy with people with disabilities (as his sadly deceased son had !) I can't see any of those in power having a tiny bit of understanding at all..........

                            Working hard, saving money and being (conventionally) "successful" are no longer a guarantee of anything when you get older ........

                            Comment


                              well it is not between the elderly and the young or any generational conflict at all .... the differences between rich and poor in every age group are much greater than any between generations .... and it is getting worse for all of us but not them ... [i am with ff on the granny thing it is an error of presentation and of relatively little substance]

                              the point is put well by Will Hutton

                              and a re-link to Skidelsky yesterday

                              this budget is so wrong for the economy one can not believe it ....


                              it is pure myth making to say that we are over taxed now, at the expense of our general economic well being ... we are under-taxed and beset by the gangster tendency ... the Glaxo move is conclusive evidence of collusion between the Cabinet and Boardroom ....


                              come on now all together no more wittering about grannies etc ...

                              the budget was wrong
                              According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                                Given camerons pathological lack of empathy with people with disabilities (as his sadly deceased son had !) I can't see any of those in power having a tiny bit of understanding at all..........

                                Working hard, saving money and being (conventionally) "successful" are no longer a guarantee of anything when you get older ........
                                DC is in complete denial or ignorance of anything which may affect some "ordinary" people or many disabled/disadvantaged people. You can get paid between £15k-£20k pa for working in some schools which look after/teach children with autism. Many of the people who work in such organisations are highly qualified. On the other hand, you can go to work in a bank and "make good" - as the saying is, and be rewarded by everyone and the government etc. In our society we are not rewarding many people who make a significantly greater contribution than those who think they have a right to be rewarded at the so-called top of the pile.

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