The Ellington Century

[Serial_Apologist]

Then we must all first read Schiff's book. Defin-I-tely.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

whereof thereof etc

[Oddball]

. Music was so diverse in the 20th Century that I think it would be hard to argue that any one composer reflected the last 100 years more than any other.

Ian seems to have his finger on the button in my view. 20th century music is best characterised as totally chaotic.

But surely there is a great difference, and probably still is in the 21st century, between European and American music ( both South and North America). Might be possible to argue that Duke is at the centre of music from USA, but Duke I gather was at pains to dissociate himself from Classical music (Alex Ross -Rest is Noise).

As regards Classical European music, I would not have thought Duke was a significant influence. And as regards pop music, wouldn't Blues artists be more of a direct influence.

However I have to admit that really I don't know much about the subject. My extensive music library includes Alex Ross' Book and Alyn Shipton's, but I have not studied Alyn's remarks on the Duke. So really I ought to read Alyn's book before buying another.

A couple of random thoughts. Why all the difficulties with Black Brown and Beige? It seems to me a totally integrated work, full of interest, around a common theme. Miles better than most of the new works that are presented at the Proms, Hear and Now.

Second Viennese School? Their value seems to be firstly that they broke up the monolith of 19th Century Classical music, and secondly the subsequent influence they had both on European and US serious composers. But the number of "great" works produced may be not as many as other 20th century composers.

And noone has mentioned Stravinsky yet.

[amateur51]

£25 is a bargain for a book of this size and scholarship.

Currently £15.72 + £2.80 p&p from USA on amazon uk

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Ellingto...3744651&sr=1-1

and better for you than all that Easter chocolate, fhg

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Second Viennese School? Their value seems to be firstly that they broke up the monolith of 19th Century Classical music,

?

and secondly the subsequent influence they had both on European and US serious composers.

Including Stravinsky .

But the number of "great" works produced may be not as many as other 20th century composers.

???, ???? and ?????

And noone has mentioned Stravinsky yet.

What has the lead singer of Herman's Hermits got to do with anything?

[amateur51]

What has the lead singer of Herman's Hermits got to do with anything?

That took me a while to work out fhg

[Ian Thumwood]

A couple of random thoughts. Why all the difficulties with Black Brown and Beige? It seems to me a totally integrated work, full of interest, around a common theme. Miles better than most of the new works that are presented at the Proms, Hear and Now.

Second Viennese School? Their value seems to be firstly that they broke up the monolith of 19th Century Classical music, and secondly the subsequent influence they had both on European and US serious composers. But the number of "great" works produced may be not as many as other 20th century composers.

.

Agree about "Black, brown and biege" and the comment about late 20th Century Classical literature which has established itself in performance is fascinating too. A huge percentage of "new" works much remain unperformed after their debuts and only a fraction of the balance of the balance get a regular performance or (like MacMillan's "Veni, Veni , Emmanuel" ) seem to get embraced by the Classical audience. The popular compositions like "Gorecki's Synphony No3 or Taverner's "Protecting Veil" can't hold a candle to Ellington at his most inspired. I would suggest that Ellington's music will long remain a touchstone in jazz well beyond the influence of the likes of Second Viennese School and especially the likes of Stockhausen whose stock (forgive the pun) as a credible composer must be falling by the year. Whilst Classical music did seem to get a bit too simplistic in the 1980's (a bit like the nouvelle cuisine!) , I think there has been a number of composers like MacMillan and Sally Beamish who have got Classical music back in track .

I would also suggest to Oddball that the likes of Debussy, Bax, Scriabin , etc were also starting to break down the harmonic language prior to Schoenberg ultimately throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's odd, I can dig jazz musicians playing in this style but the "poriginal" Classical composers do nothing for me. Thinking of some of my favourite compositions from the 20th Century (Messaiens' Turnangulila ,. Bartok's "concerto for Orchestra, " Janacek's "Symphonia,"etc) , this is music which builds on from 19th Century music and seems all the better for it. For all the theories behind his music, Messaien's compositions always felt "human." Too much attention seems to be given to "Germanic" composers who were obsessed by theories and mathematics but , again, Classical music was far broader in the 20th Century with the likes of Villa-Lobos or Lacuana choosing an alternative path which was influenced by the folk music of their respective countries. Classical music in the 20th Century became bvery, very diverse and I feel that the importance of "atonal" composers has probably been over-played. There were plenty of composers like Copeland, Barber, Adams, Riech, Orff, Poulenc, Lili Boulenger, who pursued another path which is no less valid. This all harks back to my view that 20th Century music is marked by it's variety more than anything else.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ian, with the greatest of respect, your opinions of the "Second Viennese School and especially the likes of Stockhausen" (what "likes", for chrissakes?!) is, in my opinion, utter total and fetid bol

[amateur51]

Ian, with the greatest of respect, your opinions of the "Second Viennese School and especially the likes of Stockhausen" (what "likes", for chrissakes?!) is, in my opinion, utter total and fetid bol

[Serial_Apologist]

Now now, don't be unkind. Jesus died for our sins only yesterday...