Joni Mitchell - you don't know what you've got...

[Globaltruth]

Joni Mitchell has made a contribution to the WM pantheon, pops up on our playlists quite frequently and is therefore judged to be of interest to this sub-forum.

Here's is a rare recent interview from the LA Times

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr...chell-20100422

I'll post my thoughts when a few others have had a chance to read it and comment...

[Serial_Apologist]

Joni Mitchell has made a contribution to the WM pantheon, pops up on our playlists quite frequently and is therefore judged to be of interest to this sub-forum.

Here's is a rare recent interview from the LA Times

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr...chell-20100422

I'll post my thoughts when a few others have had a chance to read it and comment...

Interesting, her comparison of Madonna with Nero: pretty smack on! - Madonna's not an 'ero of mine!

[LeMartinPecheur]

I admit to having very limited interest in, ahem, popular music but I went through a Joni Mitchell phase as a student and after, up to 'Shadows and Light' 1980. 'The Hissing of Summer Lawns' is for me is one of the greatest albums.

Did she do anything good later? Do I need to catch up all the albums for the next 32 years?

[Serial_Apologist]

I admit to having very limited interest in, ahem, popular music but I went through a Joni Mitchell phase as a student and after, up to 'Shadows and Light' 1980. 'The Hissing of Summer Lawns' is for me is one of the greatest albums.

Did she do anything good later? Do I need to catch up all the albums for the next 32 years?

Those that follow her career can doubltless amplify, but as far as I have kept tabs, she now tends to sing the classic standard repertoire of ages past, with sumptuous orchestral backdrops and a deeper voice.

Keep taking the pills, followers...

[Lateralthinking1]

I'll post my thoughts when a few others have had a chance to read it and comment...

If it took me until my mid twenties to appreciate Dylan and Morrison, Joni arrived when I was in my late thirties. In the same way as the first two examples of genius, and there are others, when it happened it happened big. A quick move from the lower half of the Championship to the pinnacle of the Premier League. That was the case in terms of recognition, appreciation and devoted listening time. Great artists are like fine wines or succulent food. When I was listening to "Big Yellow Taxi", aged seven, we had a garden full of strawberries. They were wasted on me. I couldn't eat them. Later, I just couldn't fathom how I had dismissed them so readily. Admittedly with music, it has generally been a bit different. Things I originally liked a little didn't get much of a look in as I swam in the current tides. So perhaps that food and drink analogy isn't quite apt. Literature might be closer. I like Shakespeare but still hope one day to read more than just a small number of his plays and experience a revelation similarly deep.

So where are we on this? One writer below the article admits to recent disappointment in Joni. Well, I was thrilled both by the stunning reworking of earlier material on "Travelogue" and the excellent new songs on "Shine". My only tiny gripe was that the latter was put out by Starbucks which didn't fit at all. That though is a secondary dialogue. It is time for questions to be raised and here they are courtesy of the LA Times. The main one is crystal clear. Is this project by John Kelly, about whom I know nothing, right? There is, of course, a question behind that question. It is blunt to the point of crassness but nevertheless it needs to be asked. But surely this is sacrilege? Well, perhaps, but isn't that just a very cliched outlook? Our mighty artist deserves more.



I doubt that science is helpful in this area but categorization is necessary for establishing an order in thoughts. Make that feelings. First, there is the main group. That is individual artists and bands who are well known and loved by many, even revered. They have their time. They get older. Later they are ancient. Some have the gall to die on us. To think that they of all people should be so willing to ruin our lives. How do we keep a great thing going during changes so cold-hearted and unkind? One answer is tribute acts. Noasis. Killer Queen. The Unforgettable Fire. Fair enough but they are not for me. Why not? I tend to see such acts as cheap. Cheap, I think, for being relatively easy. Easy enough to remove me from any sense of us. Someone might tell me that it is no mean feat to replicate The Edge putting Nicaragua through the amplifier in "Bullet The Blue Sky". I like to think that all of my favourites are unique and hence unequivocally inimitable.

This is not an easy place to choose. Wishing to be difficult could, in itself, be a reason why something too close to rotten old adulation happens to burst through in the first place. But away from the homespun philosophy, there are also the practical impacts. In a word, fraught. Herbie Hancock releases something called "The Joni Letters". Oh, the morbid dread of it. That should I risk a listen? How can I not do? Maybe I'll avoid it. No actually I won't. Sometimes it turns out not to be too painful. Yeah. It was an interesting interpretation. Pretty good. Not at all obvious. Not in any way like the real thing. Thank God. It wasn't a massacre. Still, there is a contradiction. It is that nagging feeling that identical would be a classy darn sight better. She probably won't tour again. What a tragic loss of something so singularly wonderful.



This must be available to all future generations. A phrase that first appeared in my head during Brian Wilson's performance of "Smile" at the Albert Hall. Immediately I knew exactly what it meant. It meant that the vinyl and cds and books and films just wouldn't be good enough in 2075. That the phrase appeared at all owed almost everything to The Wondermints. On the night, in that room, they destroyed the word impossible. The old fella was fantastic but they were a miracle. Identical was always wrong. That really was a pipedream. As live "Smile" showed, almost identical is nearer the mark, not that this doesn't bring its own problems. It is a full circle back to the tribute acts. The nebulous objective of keeping alive plummets mentally inside that line for a moment. The old fear of cheese and lager but that is to make a wrong tuning of the concept. What we get to instead, if it is ever to be got, is very much in the spirit of. Wilson's support system did that easily. They still do. Others could do that for others.

So I live in hope. It isn't clear to me whether John Kelly is a Noasis. I rather doubt it. The cross-gender nature of his persona suggests the more left field. He is hardly a Herbie Hancock either for Herbie has his own cache. The Joni cd of his was one well-known respected artist playing tribute to another. It was also sympathetic rather than spirited. Kelly then is great news if he is good. If he is great, he is unique. To date unique, notwithstanding the exceptional qualities of the Wondermints. We will need a new Dylan, a new Morrison and a new Scott-Heron. He might just open the door. Knowing that they have truly arrived depends on feedback from those who are now children. Ideally they will first dismiss them, then discover them with awe in twenty-five years.

[Globaltruth]

Interesting that not many people appear to have bothered to read the interview - fair enough, life is short. I found these two quotes interesting (not just the fact she was being interviewed by someone called Lat...)

LAT: As well, you've had experience becoming a character outside yourself [Mitchell caused controversy when she appeared as an African American male on the cover of her 1977 album, "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter"].The folk scene you came out of had fun creating personas. You were born Roberta Joan Anderson, and someone named Bobby Zimmerman became Bob Dylan.

JM: Bob is not authentic at all. He's a plagiarist, and his name and voice are fake. Everything about Bob is a deception. We are like night and day, he and I.

LAT: You've come out in the media as a sufferer of a controversial condition known as Morgellons. How is your health currently?

JM: I have this weird, incurable disease that seems like it's from outer space, but my health's the best it's been in a while, Two nights ago, I went out for the first time since Dec. 23: I don't look so bad under incandescent light, but I look scary under daylight. Garbo and Dietrich hid away just because people became so upset watching them age, but this is worse. Fibers in a variety of colors protrude out of my skin like mushrooms after a rainstorm: they cannot be forensically identified as animal, vegetable or mineral. Morgellons is a slow, unpredictable killer — a terrorist disease: it will blow up one of your organs, leaving you in bed for a year. But I have a tremendous will to live: I've been through another pandemic — I'm a polio survivor, so I know how conservative the medical body can be. In America, the Morgellons is always diagnosed as "delusion of parasites," and they send you to a psychiatrist. I'm actually trying to get out of the music business to battle for Morgellons sufferers to receive the credibility that's owed to them.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Interesting that not many people appear to have bothered to read the interview - fair enough, life is short. I found these two quotes interesting (not just the fact she was being interviewed by someone called Lat...)

global: I for one did read the interview and was struck by the bits you've quoted. Morgellons disease sounds, and looks in online photos, like a complete sci-fi nightmare (generation of weird complex fibres under the skin). But then you find that loads of medics believe it's delusional/ psychiatric. Not sure which is worse for the sufferers! And can all the online magnified photos be fakes? What is going on??

rather saddened by JM's obvious dislike of Bob dylan. I've no problem with her having dislikes, but it seems a big and nasty step to go from not liking what he does to accusing him of artistic fakery ('deception'.

[Globaltruth]

global: I for one did read the interview and was struck by the bits you've quoted. Morgellons disease sounds, and looks in online photos, like a complete sci-fi nightmare (generation of weird complex fibres under the skin). But then you find that loads of medics believe it's delusional/ psychiatric. Not sure which is worse for the sufferers! And can all the online magnified photos be fakes? What is going on??

rather saddened by JM's obvious dislike of Bob dylan. I've no problem with her having dislikes, but it seems a big and nasty step to go from not liking what he does to accusing him of artistic fakery ('deception'.

Thanks LMP - and phew, as that was pretty much my reaction to the Morgellons bit - I'd be interested in an analysis of where it happens geographically.

And yes, that Bob Dylan comment was just nasty and seemed totally wrong.

Although I do remember another sweeping comment from her in the past which went along the lines of 'All poetry is cr*p'... prone to sweeping, unjustifiable statements yet capable of producing some great non-MoR toons whilst sometimes indulging in constructive didactics

[Lateralthinking1]

I didn't think the illness part was worth commenting on. She's an artist. I had to take myself to an NHS Walk In Centre on Easter Monday because of very severe excema on every part of my legs. This is often absent for years but occasionally flares up and has done since birth. Believe me, it feels like a burning jungle of insects under there - on one occasion a GP was convinced wrongly it was psoriasis - and this time it required over £26 to pay for no less than four prescription items. It is already considerably better.

There has been much about ME. That is real in many but I think that term like, say, schizophrenia, is a useful broad categorisation of several conditions really. There are also obsessive concerns about chemtrails. The problem with breast implants is newsworthy. And Mr Zimmerman had histoplasmosis. All these things would run through certain minds. It may also go back a long way:

Hey Blue, here is a song for you/Ink on a pen/Underneath the skin/An empty space to fill in (Blue)

They said "How long can you hang around?" / I said a week maybe two / Just until my skin turns brown (California)

No comprehending/Just how close to the bone and the skin and the eyes/And the lips you can get/And still feel so alone (Coyote)

He had summer-colored skin (Urge For Going)

But to me it was skin to skin/The spirit talked in spectrums (Don Juan's Reckless Daughter)

The ulcerated ozone/These tumors of the skin (Sex Kills)

Skin white by skin golden (The Dawntreader)

Shining hair and shining skin (Harry's House-Centerpiece)

Thin Skin/Thick Joke/Can we blame it on the Smoke? (Borderline)

In "Ladies of the Canyon", Trina takes her paints and her threads and she weaves a pattern all her own. She might not be the only one. I don't say that at all in a condemning way. It is what it is. She's an artist. Hope this helps.

(PS There is a hint of synesthesia. Some might call that an illness. I wouldn't unless it is troubling to someone).

[Lateralthinking1]

...On Dylan, I just think she is grumpy and wrong and she knows that she is wrong. Not wholly in a factual sense but in the motivation. He knows that he is a magpie. He doesn't say a lot in interviews but he has cited many direct influences and references. That is a significant part of it for fans. Seeing where the bits might originate.

He isn't fraudulent. He is someone who says "I am going to be this voice now or this character now". He doesn't pretend otherwise but does find the attention to it all a bit tricky. He doesn't welcome the inspection but he needs to do it artistically and also not to feel like being in a goldfish bowl. Done knowingly, I find that refreshingly genuine.

My impression is that Joni is probably ready to call it a day. The newspapers seem to be suggesting it. That would be a pity.
I would be a very happy man to have another three or four cds in the next few years that move with such intelligence.

Thanks for the topic by the way. Fascinating as always.

[Globaltruth]

Lat - when I'm rewarded with such erudition & stimulating responses it's a pleasure to start such a thread. I also like the fact we've had posts from new visitors.

Think you're right about the 'ready to quit' feeling - that was one of the reasons why I titled the thread as I did.

But I'm a bit worried we've had a Cap'n B & a JM in relatively close order...hope Neil Young and/or Lennie Cohen are feeling ok.

[handsomefortune]

i only like the captain - but agree that the thread's an interesting read.

[Stunsworth]

Did she do anything good later? Do I need to catch up all the albums for the next 32 years?

Hejira is almost as good as Hissing of Summer Lawns. Don Juan's Reckless Daughter is very good. Then, for me it all starts to go downhill.

When Hissing of Summer Lawns was released some of the reviews panned it for having no tunes. I bought it when it came out (1976?) and it was the the first Joni Mitchell album I ever bought, and I've loved it ever since.

[gurnemanz]

I have about 20 albums. Along with Dylan she is the only popular singer I have stuck with (buying nearly all albums) over the decades after I turned "square" in about 1969 and started liking classical music. "Blue" came out when I was 22 and no doubt suffering from an appropriate degree of emotional brittleness. I was just about to graduate and take the big step of going to teach in Germany, possibly thinking I might be "only a dark cocoon before I get my gorgeous wings and flyyyyyyyyyyy away" ("The Last Time I Saw Richard") - along with" "A Case Of You," "California," and "All I Want" absolute classics on that album. Just before I left these shores I remember her doing a live set for BBC TV (yes, that kind of thing once happened) where she introduced us to her post bi-centenary "Ludwig's Tune" from her new LP "For the Roses" (another great album). A couple of years later I adored the more raunchy robustness of Court and Spark (no doubt vaguely wanting to be "unfettered and alive" like that that Free Man in Paris). It is probably my Desert Island choice from her output, if my arm were twisted.

In the late 70s we also enjoyed her live gig in London complete with dulcimer, despite the unconducive venue being the barn that was Earl's Court.

I am bound to agree that the later albums are less exciting but I like Turbulent Indigo (1994) and have a soft spot for the orchestral Travelogue (2002) which many hated.

[johncorrigan]

I read an article about it last year, that morgellons thing - I was interested that it was not animal, vegetable or mineral according to the sources.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/may/07/morgellons-mysterious-illness

Maybe Joni is still fed up with Bob cos, according to a book I read about her, she was playing on stage with Bob and according to her he always has really terrible breath and so he always arranges that they shared a microphone and breathes into her face. She also was famously fed up with Bob around the Hurricane Carter case when he brought him onto stage during the rolling thunder review and she was not impressed. And of course some do say that Coyote is about him.

On songs on later albums, I think that Cherokee Louise from Night Ride Home is one of her greatest songs - the destruction of childhood. I love Slouching towards Bethlehem and Sire of Sorrows(Job's song) from Travelogue. I really enjoy a listen to Taming the Tiger all the way through. I was listening to Blue today on my way back home from the west and I still find things in there to discover and I must have listened to it hundreds of times over the years. Lat's comments about skin were really interesting - does that create the psychosomatic or did she know there was something up - might never know.

Like I do with B Wilson, I dream of one last great Joni album - she's been one of my faves since I first heard Big Yellow Taxi on Disco 2, all them years ago.