BaL 28.04.12 Vivaldi's Operas

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    #31
    Erm, variations of orchestration?
    Is that Vivaldi, or his interpreters? Do we actually know all that much about his exact orchestration?

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by aeolium View Post
      I don't agree at all. I've really enjoyed this survey and to me it shows how varied Vivaldi's orchestration could be, and there are some wonderful arias in there. Perhaps it was rather strange to have it as a BaL rather than a post-BaL survey but as I couldn't care less about the 'winner' and it's a chance to hear a wide range of performing styles I'm not complaining.
      The extracts were far too short to make for satisfying listening in my case - I was looking forward to this but found it rather a dull edition, with very little to say. I don't agree at all with the idea that Vivaldi wrote wallpaper music. There's a visceral quality to his music that I find life-enhancing. Did anyone hear the Scottish Chamber Orchestra and Nicola Benedetti play The Four Seasons last night in the live concert? It was a thrilling, dramatic account.

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        #33
        Draco. I agree that ;

        Seamlessly the Mr Vickers moved from one to the other with scholarly detail
        but that my comment ;

        He has a slightly different task from the usual CD reviewer in that he is doing an overview of many Vivaldi operas
        rather warned that this might be the case. In fact ;
        Perhaps it was rather strange to have it as a BaL rather than a post-BaL survey
        says it all.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by DracoM View Post
          Well, I'm sorry, and I know I'm going to sound like a grudge and phillistine but, honestly, if nothing else that whole [and well-conducted] survey showed me brilliantly that once you've heard one, you've heard 'em all. Seamlessly the Mr Vickers moved from one to the other with scholarly detail, and I would be beyond reach challenged to have told that we were not listening to the same opera 24 times. Rubbish plots, over and over recycled material, show piece formulaic writing, dodgy provenance - the guy was writing beautiful wallpaper, a brilliant, but brilliant exploiter of courtly / patronal tastes.

          Don't you think he would have been astonished that we were taking it that seriously? And his next move would be to ask about [a] royalties, and [b] if you wanted a 'new' opera next week?

          I enjoyed the survey too, but I incline to your view Draco. I went through a big Handel opera phase in the 90s, I probably have about 20 on the shelves - so I'm amenable to baroque opera, capable of being wowed. And the thing that is extraordinary is the variety and depth of so much Handel.

          I hear comparatively little in Vivaldi's operas. The techniques, the signposts, sound to me very much of a muchness, sometimes beautiful of course... But it's no wonder some performers (especially the Spinosi versions, if the reviewer this morning is to be believed) resort to extremes in order to inject additional interest and variety.

          Doubt if I shall ever be a fan.

          The stand-out this morning for me was Karina Gauvin in 'Tito Manlio' under Dantone - that's the only temptation: really classy singing in a great aria
          "...the isle is full of noises,
          Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
          Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
          Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

          Comment


            #35
            A most peculiar BaL: in fact, not a Building a Library at all.

            If the producers wanted to explore the little we have on record of Vivaldiā€™s operas, or parts thereof, then surely that is part of CD Review itself, when selected recordings could be pointed out. That could have included the ā€œViva Vivaldiā€ of Bartoli, splendid in its own baroque way, but listening to the repeated trills and runs just pure torture to my ears - no doubt a delight to others!

            The Chris de Souza input was interesting, and I picked up on the fact that he had been a previous producer of the programme. Standards have slipped since then.

            At least next week we will have one particular work to have someone focus a critical eye on.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Caliban View Post



              Doubt if I shall ever be a fan.

              ... sigh. Ah well, he showed promise; we ca'n't expect everyone to fulfill the promise they once showed


              EDIT - tho' I suppose the warning signs were there. Teeshirts. Tesco's "frozen paƫlla"

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
                ... sigh. Ah well, he showed promise; we ca'n't expect everyone to fulfill the promise they once showed


                EDIT - tho' I suppose the warning signs were there. Teeshirts. Tesco's "frozen paƫlla"
                Not to mention attending a little polytechnic outfit in the Fens, I suspect!

                But rather than giving up, convince me! Convert me! What's am I missing?


                PS: The "frozen paƫlla" is a figment of Anna's fecund imagination.
                "...the isle is full of noises,
                Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Caliban View Post
                  Not to mention attending a little polytechnic outfit in the Fens, I suspect!

                  But rather than giving up, convince me! Convert me! What's am I missing?


                  PS: The "frozen paƫlla" is a figment of Anna's fecund imagination.
                  Are you allowed to write 'f*cund' on here? - could have sworn I heard french frank's tuk-tuk friend sparking up

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by DracoM View Post
                    Erm, variations of orchestration?
                    Is that Vivaldi, or his interpreters? Do we actually know all that much about his exact orchestration?
                    I'm no expert on it, far from it, but I was assuming that the reviewer was, and I was basing my response on what I heard. I hadn't any reason to believe that the interpreters had altered or added to Vivaldi's scores except for the example where we were told that Vivaldi had left a score in a bare and fragmentary state and the orchestration was 'completed' by the first violinist of the ensemble.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by DracoM View Post
                      Erm, variations of orchestration?
                      Is that Vivaldi, or his interpreters? Do we actually know all that much about his exact orchestration?
                      Yes, it's Vivaldi. He 'orchestrated' the operas (and the sacred music). The situation isn't that of Monteverdi's or Cavalli's operas of the previous century.

                      This isn't a criticism of Handel's operas, but I wonder about the word "depth" in this context. Does it mean it's more possible to import to them a value judgement based on C19 opera than is the case with Vivaldi? That a realism can be 'rescued' from the artifice? How do Rameau's (IMV quite extraordinary) operas get by on that basis ?

                      It isn't an opera, but do try to hear Vivaldi's Juditha Triumphans. That has great richness and variety of invention.

                      I agree with pilamenon about Vivaldi. (As it happens I find some of the music Handel wrote in London off-puttingly generalised and pleased with itself!)

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by John Skelton View Post
                        It isn't an opera, but do try to hear Vivaldi's Juditha Triumphans. That has great richness and variety of invention.

                        Yes, JS, I own that and have listened quite a bit to it over the years. Some really lovely stuff, but I find it... thin, somehow... I get tired of its style quite quickly.

                        By 'lacking depth' I mean that the music tends to be decorative rather than anything else. Handel seems to me to express some emotional or psychological states in ways Vivaldi never gets near. That's what I mean when I say Handel's music has greater 'depth'
                        "...the isle is full of noises,
                        Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                        Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                        Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Vivaldi does have a very distinctive style and I suppose it comes down to that: I do find it attractive and self-sufficient (I don't feel the lack of anything that might be elsewhere). But as I said, I'm not so keen on Handel (at least his London music).

                          Comment


                            #43
                            i enjoyed the programm excellent from under the duvet on a wet Saturday morning .... the one piece i really would die for the details were not given after the extract was played . i believe it was Fabio Biondi but am unsure, the soprano sounded as if she had been recorded in a studio with some echo applied rather than a natural or stage setting, the orchestration was slight but it was beautifully sung .... can any one identify the piece and performers please?
                            According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Well, I love most of the music of Handel I know, especially the music he wrote in London, and I don't know how music sounds too pleased with itself, but that's just me

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