Prom 46 (16.8.12): Vaughan Williams – Symphonies Nos. 4, 5 & 6

[heliocentric]

Very useful, AIC, thanks! This is what I reported hearing way back in msg.43, and you'll find there's a fade-down at the end of the epilogue movement before the applause begins. Haven't had time to listen again, but your measurements show it is still there.

Yes, the fade-up was pretty obvious, and led to a considerably different string sound and ambience in the closing minutes, which I think was quite a serious miscalculation.

[Boilk]

So how much individualism is the right amount? How do you measure it? Why should it matter to you, or me, or anyone else, that someone is "generally deemed ... a tier 1 composer"? If people admire the work of Cage, Glass or Nancarrow, in your words "putting them on a pedestal" (although I don't think admiring their work necessarily amounts to thus elevating them as heroic personalities), doesn't that just mean that your idea of "hit-and-miss" is different from other people's? and if so why should it "worry" you?

Suggest you read post #182 again, and you might see that I haven't attacked individualism.

As for your remarks above, best not to dignify the mentality behind them by responding.

[Bryn]

Suggest you read post #182 again, and you might see that I haven't attacked individualism.

Indeed, the attack seems to have been on what you perceive to be the variable quality of the compositional output of the composers you mention. I know fine musicians who play Nancarrow's 1st String Quartet but who dismiss his 3rd as not worth bothering with. I take a different view. They count the 3rd as a "miss", I regard it as a "hit". Some musically astute people count at least some of Glass's symphonies and concertos as 'hits'. I don't. I can't think of a Cage work which I know, and hear as a "miss". I do think he was too sweeping in his antagonism towards both Beethoven's approach to music and to improvisation in general. He also got quite mixed up re. improvisation sometimes, thinking, for instance, a performance by AMM of Cardew's Treatise was an improvisation, which it was not.

I don't find a need for others to share my views on such matters.

I don't think heliocentric missed the main point at all. Perhaps you should read h's comment again, this time concentrating on the issue of who assesses what is and what isn't "hit" or "miss", rather than the side issue of composers' individualism.

[heliocentric]

Suggest you read post #182 again, and you might see that I haven't attacked individualism.

As for your remarks above, best not to dignify the mentality behind them by responding.

You seem to reckon that both too little and too much individualism are not good, so I was just wondering what is for you the right amount, etc. As Bryn has seen, the "mentality" behind my questions was concerned with trying to get to grips with some of your assumptions, and whether you were really elevating these into dogmatic principles or just seemed to be doing so, but if you regard that as lacking in dignity I guess I shall have to draw my own conclusions.

[Extra Vaganza]

You seem to reckon that both too little and too much individualism are not good, so I was just wondering what is for you the right amount, etc. As Bryn has seen, the "mentality" behind my questions was concerned with trying to get to grips with some of your assumptions, and whether you were really elevating these into dogmatic principles or just seemed to be doing so, but if you regard that as lacking in dignity I guess I shall have to draw my own conclusions.

What on earth has all this petty squabbling to do with a thread devoted to the life and works of one of Britain's best admired composers?

Why can't you start your own thread, under "Music Matters" or something?

"A load of Bolix" would seem to me to be an appropriate title.

Miles (and years) off-post.

EV

[heliocentric]

What on earth has all this petty squabbling to do with a thread devoted to the life and works of one of Britain's best admired composers?

I think you'll find it's actually a thread devoted to reactions to the Proms concert on 16 August (the clue is in the thread title), which of course can go off in all kinds of directions and touch on a whole range of subjects, including in this case what we think of as "individuality" in a composer.

Your own last contribution brought in Gustav Holst, after all. As you mention he "was not a symphonist", but this again brings up the question of how important or relevant it is to "be" a composer of symphonies. He could easily have called The Planets a symphony rather than a suite, and nobody could have told him it wasn't (is it "more of a symphony" than Zemlinsky's Lyrische Symphonie or Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms etc.?). What is clear is that it's probably performed and recorded more often than all of RVW's symphonies put together. My understanding is that the influences between RVW and Holst ran in both directions and resulted from regular occasions where they discussed their work with one another.

[PJPJ]

Yes, the fade-up was pretty obvious, and led to a considerably different string sound and ambience in the closing minutes, which I think was quite a serious miscalculation.

I guess there's around a 5dB increase (that's quite a lot) ...........possibly because the twiddler doesn't know VW6, and doesn't read music.

While the overall level of sound quality is better this year than last, and some Proms have sounded well via the 320/aac feed, the BBC still produces results which should embarrass an amateur and a rookie.

[Northender]

What on earth has all this petty squabbling to do with a thread devoted to the life and works of one of Britain's best admired composers?

Why can't you start your own thread, under "Music Matters" or something?

"A load of Bolix" would seem to me to be an appropriate title.

Miles (and years) off-post.

EV

Soon after joining the Forum, I realized that any thread may, at any time, head off in any direction. On balance, I think this is a good thing, as I have learned some fascinating facts, and found my way to works and recordings of which I was previously unaware. (I've also learned some cracking jokes!)
You can, I believe, elect to have contributions on certain topics or by certain members blocked, but I just give the sort of post to which you're referring the quickest of glances before scrolling on. You soon get to know which can safely be ignored.
As a long-term admirer of the works of RVW, I have concentrated on messages relating to the performances at the Prom in question, and am looking forward to watching Nos. 5 and 6 on my PVR.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Very useful, AIC, thanks! This is what I reported hearing way back in msg.43, and you'll find there's a fade-down at the end of the epilogue movement before the applause begins. Haven't had time to listen again, but your measurements show it is still there.

Do you have a timing for that fade-down?

I've looked and listened for it and I think things do get quieter on the last last two/three notes but I can't be sure that's not how it was played rather than faded. If I apply an equal and opposite fade to the end as the apparent fade-up applied at 0'.45" it's not sufficient to make the level constant. That implies the engineers used a larger fade-down at the end; surely that can't be right?

Someone must have a copy of the score? Is there any diminuendo marking at the very end?

[heliocentric]

Do you have a timing for that fade-down?

I've looked and listened for it and I think things do get quieter on the last last two/three notes but I can't be sure that's not how it was played rather than faded. If I apply an equal and opposite fade to the end as the apparent fade-up applied at 0'.45" it's not sufficient to make the level constant. That implies the engineers used a larger fade-down at the end; surely that can't be right?

Someone must have a copy of the score? Is there any diminuendo marking at the very end?

I've only listened the one time, but my understanding is that the fade-down was made after the last played sounds, so as not to blast listeners with an extra 5dB of applause.

PJPJ, I wouldn't think the level-changes were the result of lack of knowledge or score-reading ability but rather a deliberate strategy, presumably decided upon in rehearsal, which may have been mistakenly overdone in performance. If it was deemed necessary to do something about the music's sudden drop to almost-inaudibility, I would have thought that a much slower fade of a maximum of 2dB would have been much less noticeable.