Eliot/WasteLand

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    Eliot/WasteLand

    Good morning to you all! Laurence Olivier once said that “in a great city, or even a small city or village, a great theatre is the outward and visible sign of an inward and probable culture”, MrGongGong. 'The Times' leads this morning with some editorial comment on awarding subsidies. 'The Thunderer' argues that the Olivier Awards last night were a reminder that London theatre not only enriches the capital’s cultural life, it also qualifies as one of Britain’s world-beating industries. Ticket sales rose to £530 million last year but that greatly understates the economic importance of the theatre, which is a big lure for high-spending tourists. In direct reply to your opening post, Serial_Apologist, I am inclined to think that money is more often made after subsidisation than before. Of course, no money may be made at all, but that is often beside the point. If I may quote T S Eliot directly from 'The Waste Land' (1922):

    " ... I sat upon the shore
    Fishing, with the arid plain behind me
    Shall I at least set my lands in order?

    London Bridge is falling down falling down falling down
    Poi s’ascose nel foco che gli affina
    Quando fiam ceu chelidon—O swallow swallow
    Le Prince d’Aquitaine à la tour abolie
    These fragments I have shored against my ruins
    Why then Ile fit you. Hieronymo’s mad againe.
    Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata.

    Shantih shantih shantih"
    At the very end of his poem, T S Eliot turns to the Fisher King himself, still on the shore fishing. The possibility of regeneration for the “arid plain” of society has been long ago discarded here in the waste land. Instead, the king will do his best to put in order what remains of his kingdom, and he will then surrender, although he still fails to understand the true significance of the coming void. The burst of allusions at the end of 'The Waste Land' can be read as either a final attempt at coherence or as a final dissolution into a world of fragments and rubbish.

    The king offers some consolation: “These fragments I have shored against my ruins,” he says, suggesting that it will be possible to continue on despite the failed redemption. It will still be possible for him, and for Eliot, to “fit you,” to create art in the face of madness. It is important that the last words of the poem are in a non-Western language. Although the meaning of the words themselves communicates resignation (“peace which passeth understanding”), they invoke an alternative set of paradigms to those of the Western world; they offer a glimpse into a culture and a value system new to us—and, thus, offer some hope for an alternative to our own dead world, Serial_Apologist.

    Last edited by Guest; 29-04-13, 08:13.

    #2
    Originally posted by Charlie View Post
    Good morning to you all! Laurence Olivier once said that “in a great city, or even a small city or village, a great theatre is the outward and visible sign of an inward and probable culture”, MrGongGong. 'The Times' leads this morning with some editorial comment on awarding subsidies. 'The Thunderer' argues that the Olivier Awards last night were a reminder that London theatre not only enriches the capital’s cultural life, it also qualifies as one of Britain’s world-beating industries. Ticket sales rose to £530 million last year but that greatly understates the economic importance of the theatre, which is a big lure for high-spending tourists. In direct reply to your opening post, Serial_Apologist, I am inclined to think that money is more often made after subsidisation than before. Of course, no money may be made at all, but that is often beside the point. If I may quote T S Eliot directly from 'The Waste Land' (1922):



    At the very end of his poem, T S Eliot turns to the Fisher King himself, still on the shore fishing. The possibility of regeneration for the “arid plain” of society has been long ago discarded here in the waste land. Instead, the king will do his best to put in order what remains of his kingdom, and he will then surrender, although he still fails to understand the true significance of the coming void. The burst of allusions at the end of 'The Waste Land' can be read as either a final attempt at coherence or as a final dissolution into a world of fragments and rubbish.

    The king offers some consolation: “These fragments I have shored against my ruins,” he says, suggesting that it will be possible to continue on despite the failed redemption. It will still be possible for him, and for Eliot, to “fit you,” to create art in the face of madness. It is important that the last words of the poem are in a non-Western language. Although the meaning of the words themselves communicates resignation (“peace which passeth understanding”), they invoke an alternative set of paradigms to those of the Western world; they offer a glimpse into a culture and a value system new to us—and, thus, offer some hope for an alternative to our own dead world, Serial_Apologist.

    Some of my favourite lines in poetry, and I've never figured out why Eliot stuck with Catholicism, instead of taking up Buddhism.

    Comment


      #3
      Eliot didn't stick with Catholicism - he became an Anglican. Still Christian, though, which I guess is the main point you are making.

      Comment


        #4
        TS Eliot described himself as "a classicist in literature, royalist in politics, and anglo-catholic in religion" [ preface to 'For Lancelot Andrewes: essays on style and order' (1929) ]

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by AuntyKezia View Post
          Eliot didn't stick with Catholicism - he became an Anglican. Still Christian, though, which I guess is the main point you are making.
          Ouf! Nothing like a swift kick in the agates!
          It loved to happen. -- Marcus Aurelius

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
            TS Eliot described himself as "a classicist in literature, royalist in politics, and anglo-catholic in religion" [ preface to 'For Lancelot Andrewes: essays on style and order' (1929) ]
            But sometimes he can make you wince when he shoehorns in his latest foray into Eastern culture:

            "I sometimes wonder if that is what Krishna meant -
            Among other things - or one way of putting the same thing:
            that the future is a faded song, a Royal Rose or a lavender spray..."

            I cried aloud at that "I sometimes wonder...", 'O, come on, Stearns!' and Four Quartets very nearly winged its way across the Thropplenoggin study.

            NB. TS Eliot is an anagram of 'toilets'. Just sayin'.
            It loved to happen. -- Marcus Aurelius

            Comment


              #7
              Mr. Noggin is right to wince. "Wonder if" is an american vulgarism. As the O.E.D. instructs us, the verb "wonder," when used in the sense "ask oneself in wonderment" or "feel some doubt or curiosity," may take a clause introduced by a conjunction such as "whether," "how," "why," "who" or "when," and the appropriate expression here would be "wonder whether": "I sometimes wonder whether that is what Krishna meant."

              Here is an example from Tennyson: "I wonder whether you can read this scrawl." "Wonder if" makes no sense in English; it flies off at an impossible semantic tangent.

              And as Mr. Noggin has indicated he has an additional cause of unease: the line is weak, inadequate as poetry.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Sydney Grew View Post
                Mr. Noggin is right to wince. "Wonder if" is an american vulgarism. As the O.E.D. instructs us, the verb "wonder," when used in the sense "ask oneself in wonderment" or "feel some doubt or curiosity," may take a clause introduced by a conjunction such as "whether," "how," "why," "who" or "when," and the appropriate expression here would be "wonder whether": "I sometimes wonder whether that is what Krishna meant."

                Here is an example from Tennyson: "I wonder whether you can read this scrawl." "Wonder if" makes no sense in English; it flies off at an impossible semantic tangent.

                And as Mr. Noggin has indicated he has an additional cause of unease: the line is weak, inadequate as poetry.
                Surely it needs to be "I wonder whether or not"?

                I'm sure this is awfully pertinent to "The Waste Land"?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                  Surely it needs to be "I wonder whether or not"?

                  I'm sure this is awfully pertinent to "The Waste Land"?
                  'Eliot/Waste Land' was all the wiggle room we needed.
                  It loved to happen. -- Marcus Aurelius

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Thropplenoggin View Post
                    'Eliot/Waste Land' was all the wiggle room we needed.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Sydney Grew View Post
                      Mr. Noggin is right to wince. "Wonder if" is an american vulgarism. As the O.E.D. instructs us, the verb "wonder," when used in the sense "ask oneself in wonderment" or "feel some doubt or curiosity," may take a clause introduced by a conjunction such as "whether," "how," "why," "who" or "when," and the appropriate expression here would be "wonder whether": "I sometimes wonder whether that is what Krishna meant."

                      Here is an example from Tennyson: "I wonder whether you can read this scrawl." "Wonder if" makes no sense in English; it flies off at an impossible semantic tangent.

                      .
                      We note that Dr Grew is selective in his quotation from the OED. Twelve lines above the Tennyson to which he refers we find:

                      "1590 SHAKS. Mids. N. III. ii. 1, I wonder if Titania be awak't."

                      Comment


                        #12
                        "Many idioms are seen, if they are tested by grammar or logic, not to say what they are nevertherless well understood to mean. Fastidious people point out the sin, and easy-going people, who are more numerous, take little notice and go on committing it. Then the fastidious people, if they are foolish, get excited and talk of ignorance and solecisms, and are laughed at as pedants; or, if they are wise, say no more about it and wait [...]"

                        Thus Mr Fowler on Sturdy Indefensibles*, on the subjet of which he opines that one had much better spend one's time in more useful activities than criticising such usages.

                        *Not to be confused with Illiteracies ("Will submit same for approval", "Between you and I") and Illogicalities ("Anyone found not putting litter in this basket will be liable to a fine of £5.")
                        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Thanks to this thread I shall look for my cassette of Alec Guiness reading The Wasteland and Prufrock.

                          I have them in print but too small for me now.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I also have Paul Scofield's readings of The Waste Land and Four Quartets. Love them as well as the Alec Guinness readings, which I only have on vinyl.

                            or:

                            "There are those who think Tom is unsound
                            And those who believe he's profound.
                            But hearing the finis
                            Of "Quartets" read by Guinness,
                            I'll admit, with his fans I am found."
                            Last edited by agingjb; 04-05-13, 12:55.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Four Quartets read by Eliot

                              Just found on Youtube T S Eliot reading his Four Quartets, uploaded from an LP:

                              Tommy Eliot!!!? From Saint Lou!!? THE Tommy Eliot!? Man, have youse changed.

                              Comment

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