Radio 3 in Concert 18.04.25 - Brahms: Requiem

[Pulcinella]

Easter: A Seasonal Journey. Brahms's Requiem from King's

Director of Music Daniel Hyde conducts the BBC Concert Orchestra and Philharmonia Chorus live from the Easter at King's festival in Cambridge. The main work is Brahms's deeply humanistic German Requiem, which he began in 1865 when his mother died.

Presented by Ian Skelly.

Schumann: Manfred Overture
Brahms: Ein deutsches Requiem

Sophie Bevan (soprano)
Gareth Brynmor John (baritone)
Philharmonia Chorus
BBC Concert Orchestra
Conductor Daniel Hyde
Chorus master Gavin Carr

[Ein Heldenleben]

Really enjoying this first rate singing from the Philharmonia chorus. What a treat the last 24 hours have been for lovers of the human voice …

[Roger Webb]

Really enjoying this first rate singing from the Philharmonia chorus. What a treat the last 24 hours have been for lovers of the human voice …

If you're listening on sounds, are you getting peak distortion (ringing) on the chorus? Sounds like a 'difficult' space for the engineers, but I agree about the singing particularly , and the performance as a whole....worth turning over from WDR3 for!

[Ein Heldenleben]

If you're listening on sounds, are you getting peak distortion (ringing) on the chorus? Sounds like a 'difficult' space for the engineers, but I agree about the singing particularly , and the performance as a whole....worth turning over from WDR3 for!

No on FM. No peak distortion at all - but I wasn’t listening at proper monitoring level . Choral singing is notorious for distortion I’m afraid. A lovely performance but I did think Denn alles Fleisch a tad slow and a bit of a push for the otherwise superb amateur chorus,

[Roger Webb]

No on FM. No peak distortion at all - but I wasn’t listening at proper monitoring level . Choral singing is notorious for distortion I’m afraid. A lovely performance but I did think Denn alles Fleisch a tad slow and a bit of a push for the otherwise superb amateur chorus,

The FM system often takes out the higher order distortion products because of its limited high frequency capability. I prefer the warts-and-all digital stream, but it wasn't very pleasant tonight....some acoustics are just tricky for the engineers.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The FM system often takes out the higher order distortion products because of its limited high frequency capability. I prefer the warts-and-all digital stream, but it wasn't very pleasant tonight....some acoustics are just tricky for the engineers.

R3 FM should go up to 15khz unless things have changed. Any audible distortion is almost certain to be present at frequencies lower than that. To be honest I’m not sure I can hear 15 kHz and above these days.
I’ll listen again on Sounds but it won’t be the same as what you heard - it ll be the stream of a digital recording rather than the live stream.It’s possible that the distortion entered the transmission chain post the output of the mixing desk . I just don’t know enough about digital relays to know ether that’s possible. It could have been in the mix - I guess the problem is that even after rehearsal and careful noting of levels on the night the choir can just sing louder. But if it was I would expect to hear it on FM - Lord knows it happens a lot.

[edashtav]

Really enjoying this first rate singing from the Philharmonia chorus. What a treat the last 24 hours have been for lovers of the human voice …

A very impressive performance. Daniel Hyde is superb in quiet, reverential music.

[Historian]

... It’s possible that the distortion entered the transmission chain post the output of the mixing desk . I just don’t know enough about digital relays to know ether that’s possible. It could have been in the mix - I guess the problem is that even after rehearsal and careful noting of levels on the night the choir can just sing louder. But if it was I would expect to hear it on FM - Lord knows it happens a lot.

The choir were marking at times during the rehearsal, although there was enough at 'full power' to give a good indication of what would happen in the performance. The Brahms is a big sing and sensible choristers make sure they don't go too soon both in the final rehearsal and in the performance.

[hmvman]

R3 FM should go up to 15khz unless things have changed. Any audible distortion is almost certain to be present at frequencies lower than that. To be honest I’m not sure I can hear 15 kHz and above these days.
I’ll listen again on Sounds but it won’t be the same as what you heard - it ll be the stream of a digital recording rather than the live stream.It’s possible that the distortion entered the transmission chain post the output of the mixing desk . I just don’t know enough about digital relays to know ether that’s possible. It could have been in the mix - I guess the problem is that even after rehearsal and careful noting of levels on the night the choir can just sing louder. But if it was I would expect to hear it on FM - Lord knows it happens a lot.

Would the recording team not use limiters in a live situation where peak levels are uncertain and not controllable?

I listened to the concert this afternoon and thoroughly enjoyed it - and felt uplifted afterwards. (I didn't hear but wasn't listening for distortion).

[Roger Webb]

Would the recording team not use limiters in a live situation where peak levels are uncertain and not controllable?

I listened to the concert this afternoon and thoroughly enjoyed it - and felt uplifted afterwards. (I didn't hear but wasn't listening for distortion).

Yes, the BBC broadcasts use dynamic range management, but supposedly only for the FM feed...the digital feed which is sent via Sounds they say is not manipulated, although, as EH says it goes through several stages before we get it on our system at home - for example the conversion to HLS-Dash which is available in the high quality AAC 320k format, which in itself is 'lossy', although much preferable to the MP3 format used by many broadcasters...DAB uses the inadequate and just about obsolete MP2 layer and at a maximum bitrate of 192k...often lower, 160k is common on Radio 3.

I think the BBC engineers do a very good job indeed, and to listen to a 'live' broadcast from a venue that they know...Wigmore, Salle Albert etc (one of my favourites was St George's, Bristol, as I often went there for concerts, not now used much by the BBC), is to hear the finest sound radio can offer anywhere in the world. The finest sound for the Proms was an experiment with Flac lossless a few years ago, and it was very successful, but it hasn't been repeated unfortunately.

I just wish those who run the BBC would sort out where and how we are able to access their services (home and overseas! more announcement s on that to come!!)....I'm sure many of us have devices lying around unable to be used for BBC stations because of decisions made by people who have forgotten that their charter requires them to provide a service that is convenient for the license payers.

[Ein Heldenleben]

If you're listening on sounds, are you getting peak distortion (ringing) on the chorus? Sounds like a 'difficult' space for the engineers, but I agree about the singing particularly , and the performance as a whole....worth turning over from WDR3 for!

Just listened to the first 10 mins or so on Sounds (stream not download ) and haven’t heard any peak distortion yet. There are so many elements in getting a concert from microphone to streaming device / tuner amp that it’s difficult to work out where distortion could have been introduced. What’s interesting about the recording is how comparatively little there is of the very reverberant Kings College Chapel acoustic.

Slightly strangely the chorus has more reverberation on it than the band - the latter must have been quite closely miked (esp that harp). It’s a good balance - remarkable for a live relay. I don’t think music balancers use limiters on live relays - the idea is to stop the necessity for these by moving the faders up and down in a way so subtle that the audience aren’t aware.

Ooh just heard something strange on the sops. I think it’s one of those weird acoustic effects that sounds like distortion but isn’t in fact electronic. They just weren’t singing loud enough for it to be distortion .

Yes just listening to her Denn Fleisch that apparent distortion is just a product of the very resonant acoustic I think. There are so many nodes and anti nodes it’s a waveform mismash .

On that note went to Tewkesbury Abbey Evensong yesterday. I was near the choir but even so could make very few words out. This Kings relay is very much produced for Radio - the audience wouldn’t have heard it anything like as clearly. I’ve got a feeling that the reverb time at Kings is even longer than at Tewkesbury.

[Roger Webb]

Just listened to the first 10 mins or so on Sounds (stream not download ) and haven’t heard any peak distortion yet. There are so many elements in getting a concert from microphone to streaming device / tuner amp that it’s difficult to work out where distortion could have been introduced. What’s interesting about the recording is how comparatively little there is of the very reverberant Kings College Chapel acoustic.

Slightly strangely the chorus has more reverberation on it than the band - the latter must have been quite closely miked (esp that harp). It’s a good balance - remarkable for a live relay. I don’t think music balancers use limiters on live relays - the idea is to stop the necessity for these by moving the faders up and down in a way so subtle that the audience aren’t aware.

Ooh just heard something strange on the sops. I think it’s one of those weird acoustic effects that sounds like distortion but isn’t in fact electronic. They just weren’t singing loud enough for it to be distortion .

Yes just listening to her Denn Fleisch that apparent distortion is just a product of the very resonant acoustic I think. There are so many nodes and anti nodes it’s a waveform mismash .

On that note went to Tewkesbury Abbey Evensong yesterday. I was near the choir but even so could make very few words out. This Kings relay is very much produced for Radio - the audience wouldn’t have heard it anything like as clearly. I’ve got a feeling that the reverb time at Kings is even longer than at Tewkesbury.

Thanks for going to all this trouble EH,......I've been wondering if it's my 75 year-old ears - I had a test a year ago and was told they were in pretty good nick for my age. I think one of the things is the better the equipment you listen on the fussier one becomes - I can still enjoy listening on a little 'tranny' in the bath if the music making is absorbing!

It was the top voices where the problem lay, as I remember it, but, as you say, even live music can have its problems - I'm often bothered by excess sibilance with cathedral choirs too. As you say one often thinks when sitting at a live concert (opera can be like this) if this were a CD, I'd take it back!

Used to stop off at Tewkesbury on my yearly migration from Sharpness, either up the Avon or Severn on my narrowboat - got caught one year (2007) on the Avon just above Tewk at the Swan's Neck when the river went up over night, and I was trapped for 5 nights.

Thanks again.

[Historian]

...

Slightly strangely the chorus has more reverberation on it than the band - the latter must have been quite closely miked (esp that harp). It’s a good balance - remarkable for a live relay. I don’t think music balancers use limiters on live relays - the idea is to stop the necessity for these by moving the faders up and down in a way so subtle that the audience aren’t aware.

That was indeed the case. Lots of individual mikes for the BBC Concert orchestra whereas only 4 (I think) for the Philharmonia Chorus and those were on tall stands. Apologies for the lack of technical language: I am very impressed by the knowledge shared by forum members.

[DracoM]

Pretty limp performance for me. Sorry..................but...

[french frank]

I can still enjoy listening on a little 'tranny' in the bath if the music making is absorbing!

I have never possessed any expensive audio equipment, and am apparently (?) considered eccentric in thinking of the music as something separate from the sound it makes.