Don Who, say?

[Bert Coules]

Listening today to Donald Macleod's excellent first part of a Carmen-centric Composer of the Week (lovely intertwining of extracts from the work and a spoken synopsis), I found myself irritated anew by the many references to a Don Jzho-zay. Exactly when and why did that gentlemen usurp the place of the once ubiquitous and far more euphonius Ho-zay?

[oliver sudden]

I imagine that the ‘when’ is from the beginning and the ‘why’ is because that’s how you would pronounce that name if speaking French… Perhaps it’s only the opera’s international career (and the presence of some distinguished Spanish-speaking Dons in recent history) that’s responsible for it ever being pronounced any other way. (The title role is a trickier matter—if I understand correctly she would be stressed on the ‘Car’ in Spanish but in the musical setting is constantly stressed on the ‘men’. So to speak.)

Just personally I would find the French J much more conducive to a nice singing line. But euphony is in the ear of the beholder I suppose.

[french frank]

I imagine that the ‘when’ is from the beginning and the ‘why’ is because that’s how you would pronounce that name if speaking French…

Yes, the only thing that's Spanish about the opera is the setting. The original novella was in French, the libretto was in French, the composer was French and the original cast seem mostly to have been French. Mozart's Don Giovanni was set in Spain too.

[Roger Webb]

Another victim of false 'Spanishness' in pronunciation is the composer Ginastera. We hear Hinastera every time he's played...in spite of his plea that his Catalan name be rendered correctly as in Gin and Tonic (actually a bit more like the 'J' in Jacques.....or the French José....or, come to that, the Belgian José van Dam - an excellent Escamillo in his time!)

[Bert Coules]

I imagine that the ‘when’ is from the beginning

I should perhaps have been clearer: I'm talking about the situation where the opera and the character are being spoken of in English. I've known about Carmen almost as long as I've known about music, and it's only comparatively recently that the Jzho-zay pronunciation has appeared to be the accepted norm under those circumstances. The provenance of the piece and its composer don't seem to me to be relevant: it's the character that matters, and the character is clearly Spanish.

[Bert Coules]

Yes, the only thing that's Spanish about the opera is the setting.

The only thing? It's the most important thing!

[french frank]

I should perhaps have been clearer: I'm talking about the situation where the opera and the character are being spoken of in English.

My example about Don Giovanni seems relevant. When spoken about in English does he usually become Don Juan (/xwɑ̃/)? (More likely to be Jee-oh-VARney in English).

[LHC]

The only thing? It's the most important thing!

In the words of Noel Coward: "Carmen by Bizet is no more Spanish than the Champs-Elysees"

[Bert Coules]

My example about Don Giovanni seems relevant. When spoken about in English does he usually become Don Juan

He does if you're talking about the epic Byron poem, yes, because the scansion and rhymes only work if the name is pronouned and inflected akin to "new 'un" (a gag which I seem to recall Byron uses more than once).

But elsewhere, no: it would take a brave opera translator to attempt to replace Da Ponte's four syllables with Byron's two or even the more common one (to cram in a double joke). Though I did once see a vocal score of Otello in which all the names were Shakespearianised including Desdemona's, necessitating a degree of carpentry to the notes which I suspect many Mozartians would look at askance.

[oliver sudden]

He does if you're taking about the epic Byron poem, yes, because the scansion and rhymes only work if the name is pronouned and inflected akin to "new 'un" (a gag which I seem to recall Byron uses more than once).

But elsewhere, no: it would take a brave opera translator to attempt to replace Da Ponte's four syllables with Byron's two or even the more common one (to cram in a double joke). Though I did once see a vocal score of Otello in which all the names were Shakespearianised including Desdemona's, necessitating a degree of carpentry to the notes which I suspect many Mozartians would look at askance.

A pedant writes: ‘Giovanni’ has a mere three syllables, as in the Stone Guest’s memorable final entrance.

(I saw a performance of Otello once where the surtitles were all from Shakespeare as far as possible, including ‘art thou a strumpet’ or words to that (unfortunate) effect.)

[Sir Velo]

A pedant writes: ‘Giovanni’ has a mere three syllables, as in the Stone Guest’s memorable final entrance.

I did a little every time I hear "Gee-o-van-knee"!

[oliver sudden]

I did a little every time I hear "Gee-o-van-knee"!

…Abraham de Lacey Gee oo zeppy Casey…

https://youtu.be/yRET1vsfiJM?feature=shared

[french frank]

He does if you're taking about the epic Byron poem, yes, because the scansion and rhymes only work if the name is pronouned and inflected akin to "new 'un" (a gag which I seem to recall Byron uses more than once).

When I first quoted the example - as being also a Spanish setting - I did specify Mozart's Don Giovanni.The English speaker has tended to 'translate' foreign names (Don Quixote, for example). What irritates me is the attempt to pronounce Spanish names. José does not begin with an 'h' and Quijote is mangled beyond redemption.

[oliver sudden]

What irritates me is the attempt to pronounce Spanish names. José does not begin with an 'h'

…and if I understand correctly the s in José would not be voiced in Spanish; and most Anglophones would diphthongise at least one if not both of the vowels, so there’s really not much Spanish left!

To be fair, transplanting a ‘proper’ Spanish José into an otherwise English sentence would sound quite bizarre. Especially given that no one actually makes that sound in the opera itself…

[LHC]

Similarly, I don't think anyone would (or should) attempt to use the Spanish pronunciations for Strauss's Don Quixote or Don Juan, or indeed for Ravel's Don Quichotte à Dulcinée.