In Concert Monday, 27th May : Pappano and Pat. Kop

[vinteuil]

Jane Birkin's .... Franco-Algerian husband Serge Gainsbourg

I don't think there was anything Algerian about Serge Gainsbourg. He was born Lucien Ginsburg* in Paris of Ukrainian Ashkenazi Jewish parents, who had fled to France after the 1917 Russian Revolution

* He changed his name in 1954 - "“He thought it was a loser’s name. He said it reminded him of hairdressers – they were always called Lucien. Serge, he thought, sounded more Russian. And he chose Gainsbourg because he loved the English painter Gainsborough. Lucien Ginsburg was this shy Jewish refugee who thought he was ugly and who the prostitutes used to scream at because he looked so young. Serge Gainsbourg was like putting on a suit of armour." [Jane Birkin]

.

[edashtav]

Thanks for your reply. By 'orient' I meant not necessarily the 'far east' but the influence of the non-western world, including moorish music and anything eastwards, as the western europeans like Debussy, Ravel and Holst imagined it. The concept is dealt with in Edward Said's book Orientalism.

Fazil Say's work reminded me of Jane Birkin's stage show Arabesque, which sets the songs of her late Franco-Algerian husband Serge Gainsbourg in an imaginary 'oriental' background , vocally and instrumentally (even including a solo onthe Oud) but basically an unpretentious pop concert with a veneer of orientalism; I see Say's concerto in much the same vein, a similar level of artistic merit. But I can listen to Arabesque with enjoyment perhaps because I like Jane Birkin's voice and manner more than Kopatchinskaja's playing.

What made me listen to the Say work was an inkling that we have a new trend in concert music here, along with another 'oriental' concerto you praised some weeks ago (for piano, maybe?), whose name I cannot recall owing to my terrible memory for names, and Stephen Hough's piano concerto. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I sense that these works have been chosen for broadcast becasue they are thought to be more 'accessible' , drawing in a larger audience of non-specialist classical music listeners. Along with the notorious controversial choice of music at last year's Coronation, this may be the future of 'new music' . 'Boulez est mort' one might say , serialism is dead .

I differ from you, liking PK's range of virtuosity: from sweet to sour but all delivered with intensity more than Jane Birkin who popped into and out of my mind solely as the ubiquitous soundtrack of coach journeys during a French school exchange.

As the 20th century advanced, I think our knowledge of the variety and distinctness of National Music(s) outside of Europe developed. I appreciate that you view Oriental as a wide, generic term as used by critics and composers a century ago, smittims. My umbrella terms are "exotic' and 'eclectic,'.

I must catch up with Hough's concerto- I have admired his pianist in past posts.

As for Serialism, it did not die with Pierre Boulez as I suspect he forsook Serialism in old age, perhaps, his serialpause developed after he conducted Wagner. I concede that Total Serialism is passé and Serial composers have a hard time in the 21st c. Serialism survives as a tool to be used as appropriate similar, perhaps to the use of fugal techniques.

[smittims]

Thanks for your reply. By 'orient' I meant not necessarily the 'far east' but the influence of the non-western world, including moorish music and anything eastwards, as the western europeans like Debussy, Ravel and Holst imagined it. The concept is dealt with in Edward Said's book Orientalism.

Fazil Say's work reminded me of Jane Birkin's stage show Arabesque, which sets the songs of her late Franco-Algerian husband Serge Gainsbourg in an imaginary 'oriental' background , vocally and instrumentally (even including a solo onthe Oud) but basically an unpretentious pop concert with a veneer of orientalism; I see Say's concerto in much the same vein, a similar level of artistic merit. But I can listen to Arabesque with enjoyment perhaps because I like Jane Birkin's voice and manner more than Kopatchinskaja's playing.

What made me listen to the Say work was an inkling that we have a new trend in concert music here, along with another 'oriental' concerto you praised some weeks ago (for piano, maybe?), whose name I cannot recall owing to my terrible memory for names, and Stephen Hough's piano concerto. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I sense that these works have been chosen for broadcast becasue they are thought to be more 'accessible' , drawing in a larger audience of non-specialist classical music listeners. Along with the notorious controversial choice of music at last year's Coronation, this may be the future of 'new music' . 'Boulez est mort' one might say , serialism is dead .

[edashtav]

Well, I'm sure the roots are genuine, but the music is 'pseudo' I'm afraid, much more than the 'oriental' ingredients in, say, Ibert's Escales, Debussy's Pagodes or Maurice Delage's Quatre Poemes Indoues, to name a few more soundly-structured works. .
[...]
.

I'm examining your first paragraph as I cannot comment on your more serious one through my ignorance of your chosen example.

Ibert's Escales are postcards composed by a wonderful orchestrator. His ports of call are Mediterranean and do not evoke the Orient.
One shows the Moorish / Muslim side of Spain and another the Muslim world of Tunisia. Aspects of that piece are used again in Ibert's images of multicultural 'Paris'.

Delage's Poèmes are brilliant crystalline miniatures derived from a long stay in the subcontinent. He was genuinely interested in Indian music but he was limited by his poor ability to sustain extended structures. His Raga piano piece lasts, possibly, 20 minutes. Indian ragas tend to have long spans. The French Webern without the Austrian's searching intellect?

Claude Debussy heard a Gamelan band at an Exposition. He distilled its sound world, making it his own, in a couple of wonderful essays.

in conclusion beyond saying that Debussy is a genius and Say, Delage, and Ibert are Interesting composers of their time I do not wish to go, smittims.

[smittims]

Well, I'm sure the roots are genuine, but the music is 'pseudo' I'm afraid, much more than the 'oriental' ingredients in, say, Ibert's Escales, Debussy's Pagodes or Maurice Delage's Quatre Poemes Indoues, to name a few more soundly-structured works. .

But to be more serious., I have been intrigued by this hinterland between classical and pop, after listening to Paul McCartney's Ecce Cor Meum, not so much by the music itself as the reaction to it, some enraptured, others positively derisive (see the Gramophone review of the CD, for instance). To be fair, I don't think McCartney is claiming any originality or profundity, but there does seem to be a resentment about people seen as interlopers into the classical world. Conversely, I sense a 'cultural-relativism' which says 'if it's from my ethnic roots you can't crirticise it'; this does seem to be increasing. I hear much the same on the 'New Music Show' ; if a piece derives from Rock we're supposed to applaud its originality, though all too often I hear only the trappings and the suits of both genres artificially inserted, as if that's enough to make a convincing work.

[edashtav]

I would love to agree with you but honestly I think Malcolms Arnold and Williamson were so much more talented than Fazil Say. I also wonder how much say (no pun intended) Pappano has in work selection. I think he had a Proms premiere a couple of years back which left me pretty underwhelmed.

My 3,2 1 would be a sandwich with the two Malcolms as bread and Fazil as the light, houmous filling.
Pappano is returning to Say after touring it across Spain with the LSO and PK last October. If he wasn't 'smittim' by it...

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's certainly more Western and less Oriental than you think, smittims, as its roots are in Turkey- Fazil"s homeland, and North Africa.. Those roots are genuine and not 'pseudo'. The work was scheduled by the LSO rather than chosen by 'play it again, Sam'. The work has been premiered in Switzerland, recorded twice, toured successfully to Spain and championed by Antonio and Pat who 'know their onions'. It roused a full, young audience at the LSO Live performance which was the basis for last night's replay. Yes it does not apologise for its pop components but that is true of Malcolm Arnold's 5th Symphony and much of Malcolm Williamson's output.

The work has legs and a sound chassis, smittins, but I agree with you that I hope such works will neither dominate the future of new music on Radio 3 nor edge out more 'edgy" fare.

I would love to agree with you but honestly I think Malcolms Arnold and Williamson were so much more talented than Fazil Say. I also wonder how much say (no pun intended) Pappano has in work selection. I think he had a Proms premiere a couple of years back which left me pretty underwhelmed.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I love your term 'genuine ersatz' Eastern music, Ein Heldenleben: inventive, appropriate and funny!

thank you . It’s a whole sub genre isn’t it ? Not just RIMSKY but also works like Balakirev’s Islamey , the various dances in Act 2 Swan Lake (all miniature masterpieces ) . No doubt Edward Said would decry it but ,sorry , I like it .

[edashtav]

I love your term 'genuine ersatz' Eastern music, Ein Heldenleben: inventive, appropriate and funny!

[edashtav]

Sorry if I seem to rain on your parade, edashtav, but I have to enter a 'minority report'. I was disturbed by the Fazil Say concerto, not so much by the music itself , which was negligible and forgettable , but by its inclusion on Radio 3. Was this a nod towards diversity, given the perceived western/caucasian image of classical music and Sam's determination to dispel it? Is this the future of new music on Radio 3 ? I've long tried to give new music a fair hearing, but if it continues like this then I sall have to give up. Whether it's a 'successful ' piece thay doesn' not it outstay its welcome is a matter of miopinion, but I'd be interested to see anyone deny that this was any more than pseudo-oriental pop.

It's certainly more Western and less Oriental than you think, smittims, as its roots are in Turkey- Fazil"s homeland, and North Africa.. Those roots are genuine and not 'pseudo'. The work was scheduled by the LSO rather than chosen by 'play it again, Sam'. The work has been premiered in Switzerland, recorded twice, toured successfully to Spain and championed by Antonio and Pat who 'know their onions'. It roused a full, young audience at the LSO Live performance which was the basis for last night's replay. Yes it does not apologise for its pop components but that is true of Malcolm Arnold's 5th Symphony and much of Malcolm Williamson's output.

The work has legs and a sound chassis, smittins, but I agree with you that I hope such works will neither dominate the future of new music on Radio 3 nor edge out more 'edgy" fare.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Sorry if I seem to rain on your parade, edashtav, but I have to enter a 'minority report'. I was disturbed by the Fazil Say concerto, not so much by the music itself , which was negligible and forgettable , but by its inclusion on Radio 3. Was this a nod towards diversity, given the perceived western/caucasian image of classical music and Sam's determination to dispel it? Is this the future of new music on Radio 3 ? I've long tried to give new music a fair hearing, but if it continues like this then I sall have to give up. Whether it's a 'successful ' piece thay doesn' not it outstay its welcome is a matter of miopinion, but I'd be interested to see anyone deny that this was any more than pseudo-oriental pop.

I agree the Say work was weak - very thin music really . For an example of how to be “unmodern” and yet write a masterpiece look no further than the Rachmaninov symphonic dances. But the inclusion of the concerto in this concert had nothing to do with Radio 3 - it was an LSO concert and their programming. Western composers have long been fascinated with the East - Mozart and Beethoven using Turkish military band instruments , Debussy and Gamelan for example. The “genuine ersatz “ Eastern experience is of course to be had in RImsky’s Scherazade . Oh and there’s the Ravel masterpiece as well . The bar is set pretty high if you want to go down the 1001 nights route.

[smittims]

Sorry if I seem to rain on your parade, edashtav, but I have to enter a 'minority report'. I was disturbed by the Fazil Say concerto, not so much by the music itself , which was negligible and forgettable , but by its inclusion on Radio 3. Was this a nod towards diversity, given the perceived western/caucasian image of classical music and Sam's determination to dispel it? Is this the future of new music on Radio 3 ? I've long tried to give new music a fair hearing, but if it continues like this then I sall have to give up. Whether it's a 'successful ' piece thay doesn' not it outstay its welcome is a matter of miopinion, but I'd be interested to see anyone deny that this was any more than pseudo-oriental pop.

[edashtav]

The London Symphony Orchestra and conductor Antonio Pappano were joined by the mercurial virtuoso Patricia Kopatchinskaja in a brilliant performance Fazil Say's eclectic 1st violin concerto which has enjoyed many repeat performances since its Lucerne premiere in February 2008. Sau is pronounced as in 'Sigh no more, Ladies'.

Kopatchinskaja is the work's dedicatee. The four movement concerto is a successful east-west fusion including Middle Eastern folk music plus prominent parts forTurkish and African percussion. The violinist plays, and probably acts, the part of Scheherazade who depends on telling wondrous tales to ward off certain death. Giving the Concerto four short movements maximised opportunities for variety and meant that strange sonorities didn't outstay their welcome. Say is technically adept but shows no embarrassment when a broad melody suitable for a Musical bubbles into view. The second dance movement had the intensity of a totentanz coupled with the rhythmic vitality of Sensmaya by Silvestre Revueltas. It was succeeded by a theme and variations based on a Turkish folk tune. The finale was decked out with birdsong.

The concert began with Ravel's menacing La valse, written as a devastating memorial to lives and lifestyles destroyed by WWI. The performance was impeccable combining finesse, balance telling use of rubato and sharp chording as WWI bombs exploded, shattering delicate waltzes into shards.

After the interval, Pappano's account of Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances was sensational with glorious orchestral.playing. It was Sergei's final orchestral work, which, like the Ravel featured a haunted waltz, as well as profound nostalgia and melancholy, with a dramatic finale that speaks of a tussle between life and death.