Train Tracks ("live", 27 September 2025)

[Ein Heldenleben]

Your'e batting energetically for the Jackson eleven , jonfan, but I'm afraid your question in message 53 is not a useful one for me. It's not about whether or not I can name a festival, or how cheap they are to attend. I don't attend festivals anyway,though I think Salzburg and Lucerne are still going and are more 'classical' than the Proms.

And what do we mean by 'great' anyway? You think Music Map is 'brilliant'. I think it is crap. I'm not surprised you think the Proms are 'great'. Of course they will get a bigger audience if they increase the ratio of pop to classical concerts. It's known as 'dumbing down' . They'd get an even bigger audience if they did live sex on stage. But is that what a 'classical music festival' is supposed to be about? In that case Andre Rieu is 'greater' than Toscanini .

If Radio 3 cares as much about classical music as they claim, why don't they play more complete works of any length?

I don’t think they would get a bigger audience for live sex as the stage is too far from most of the seats and
let’s face it it’s not a spectator sport really.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It’s a tall ask of any station! I tuned in yesterday and heard Music Map which was brilliant.
FF, there are many complete works in those I listed that fulfil your criteria. I’ve no evidence to back this up but I understood R3 was very expensive per listener as the cost of professional orchestras and singers are included.
When RAJAR is issued and the numbers are down comments here prove that dumbing down is the cause; when the numbers go up dumbing down is also the cause.
I do agree the BBC should trumpet its arts sponsorship more; it’s still considerable despite financial constraints.

EH - a great list of Proms highlights. My only difference would be to put RCO Mahler 5 above everything else.

That didn’t quite gel for me - particularly the scherzo - good Adagietto though ..

[smittims]

'it's not a spectaor sport really'.

You are of course entitled to your opinion . But I think the huge Tv audience for Big Brother was partly due to the hope that they would 'see some action' of that sort.

[jonfan]

If Radio 3 cares as much about classical music as they claim, why don't they play more complete works of any length?

Looking at Classical Live and the 19.30 slots each weekday and you’ll see complete works, ‘of any length’ (unsure what you mean). Complete operas on Saturday, Verdi just gone.
Any festival with EH’s list should be proud, and equaling the quality of performances.

[smittims]

By 'of any length' I mean c.20 minutues on , and (more importantly) of more than one movement. It's shameful that they play only one movement of Bachianas Brasileiras no. 5 when the whole work lasts only 8 minutes! And only the adagio from Bach's Toccata, Adagio ad Fugue when the whole work is only 13 minutes, and even then they announced the adagio as the whole work, which is frankly dishonest.

No-one is disputing that there are complete works on Radio 3, but they are only at a few specific times of the day. They used to be all complete works . There is simply no excuse fotr this philistine chopping. It shows a disrespect and ignorance of what classical music is about.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Looking at Classical Live and the 19.30 slots each weekday and you’ll see complete works, ‘of any length’ (unsure what you mean). Complete operas on Saturday, Verdi just gone.
Any festival with EH’s list should be proud, and equaling the quality of performances.

I can pretty much guarantee that this weeks Live on 3 evening concerts will be of similar quality to the Proms unless Boris Giltburg . the Philharmonia , the LPO and RLPO have forgotten how to play over the summer break. I can also sadly pretty well guarantee little comment about these concerts on the Forum whereas the moans or , if you prefer , acutely relevant criticism of Essential Classics , Breakfast will go on for the rest of time,

[oddoneout]

Looking at Classical Live and the 19.30 slots each weekday and you’ll see complete works, ‘of any length’ (unsure what you mean). Complete operas on Saturday, Verdi just gone.
Any festival with EH’s list should be proud, and equaling the quality of performances.

Classical Live has a main big work - used to be the 3pm slot but now timings have been completely abandoned I don't know if that still holds, and may also contain several other complete works large and/or small - but it also is the repository of dismembered offerings from recorded concerts and festivals. Those offerings may be complete works, but being removed from their context and too often interspersed between other unrelated(and undeclared in the schedule) items, coupled with the aforementioned lack of timings, means that realistically the only way to listen to such content is via self-curated listen again activity. For many folk that isn't an issue, that is how they listen anyway. However some of us, either through preference or necessity(both in my case) listen to the radio - or used to. The Proms were subjected to the same cut and paste this year rather than being repeated in full - and sold as 'highlights'. As I have commented before, who or what makes that subjective choice, and why? Are the Proms concerts not worth repeating in full?
There used to be live concerts from Wigmore Hall each weekday afternoon, which have now become one - so reducing claims to live music.
The evening concerts and Saturday opera relay have been part of the offering for decades, but there also used to be opera on Thursday afternoons.

[jonfan]

There doesn’t seem much point in repeating Proms concerts in full when it’s available on Sounds, though I take your point that’s not everyone. I’m sure it includes all Forum members who are computer and Smart phone savvy! I’d question Wigmore Hall recitals every afternoon, are you sure? Having looked back over the decades via Genome there was a weekly St John’s Smith Square concert at Lunchtime for many years.

[jonfan]

No-one is disputing that there are complete works on Radio 3, but they are only at a few specific times of the day. They used to be all complete works . There is simply no excuse fotr this philistine chopping. It shows a disrespect and ignorance of what classical music is about.

Looking back over past issues of the Radio Times the proportion of live complete works and Essential Classic type formulas about the same. By the way, what is classical music about?

[AuntDaisy]

There doesn’t seem much point in repeating Proms concerts in full when it’s available on Sounds, though I take your point that’s not everyone. I’m sure it includes all Forum members who are computer and Smart phone savvy! I’d question Wigmore Hall recitals every afternoon, are you sure? Having looked back over the decades via Genome there was a weekly St John’s Smith Square concert at Lunchtime for many years.

I think it used be Wigmore Hall on Mondays, then a block of 4 (or more) related Lunchtime Concerts, e.g. "Solo Bach at St Lukes", "St Georges Bristol", "Lawrence Power and Friends", "Schwetzingen Festival", "Perth Schubertiad", "Edinburgh International Festival", "East Neuk Festival", "Cheltenham Music Festival", "Aldeburgh Festival", ...
I really miss the old Lunchtime Concerts and really hate the way they've merged / chopped / destroyed "concerts" to fit in to Classical Live.

Sadly, not everyone likes or can use Sounds.

The older Proms repeats on Through the Night are often very good - but I don't use Sounds to hear them.

Looking back over past issues of the Radio Times the proportion of live complete works and Essential Classic type formulas about the same. By the way, what is classical music about?

How far back do your Radio Times go?

[jonfan]

I think it used be Wigmore Hall on Mondays, then a block of 4 (or more) related Lunchtime Concerts, e.g. "Solo Bach at St Lukes", "St Georges Bristol", "Lawrence Power and Friends", "Schwetzingen Festival", "Perth Schubertiad", "Edinburgh International Festival", "East Neuk Festival", "Cheltenham Music Festival", "Aldeburgh Festival", ...
I really miss the old Lunchtime Concerts and really hate the way they've merged / chopped / destroyed "concerts" to fit in to Classical Live.

Sadly, not everyone likes or can use Sounds.

The older Proms repeats on Through the Night are often very good - but I don't use Sounds to hear them.



How far back do your Radio Times go?

1923.

[jonfan]

On Genome, a useful resource.

[oddoneout]

There doesn’t seem much point in repeating Proms concerts in full when it’s available on Sounds, though I take your point that’s not everyone. I’m sure it includes all Forum members who are computer and Smart phone savvy! I’d question Wigmore Hall recitals every afternoon, are you sure? Having looked back over the decades via Genome there was a weekly St John’s Smith Square concert at Lunchtime for many years.

You are right about the lunchtime concerts, my mistake, they were from a variety of venues - but the fact I was getting at remains, that there was a live lunchtime slot each weekday, ie a concert broadcast in full and as intended.
I do not have a smartphone and neither do I have the necessary kit to make use of Sounds except for brief reference purposes - assuming I can fathom out how to get at what I want. If R3 is not going to be a broadcasting station any longer(which to me increasingly feels to be the case ) then my radio ceases to be of even the limited use it is now in terms of accessing music and programmes I wish to listen to.
As regards the Proms I consider describing it as "the world's greatest classical music festival", needs ditching. Using the term 'classical' is surely perpetuating an alienating impression that is at odds with the current direction of travel (both stated and in practice); an increasing amount of the content is not 'classical' even in a very loose sense. Describing it as 'greatest' is a subjective assessment - largest or longest are factual.
What I do think was good this year was the regional orchestras and their contributions on their home turf, rather than the Proms in the Park set-up. There may be an argument for PitP but I don't think it is something that the BBC should be undertaking. It is good to have a reminder of just how good the 'other' BBC orchestras are and that not everything has to be about and in London; quality is available outside the M25. With the problems caused to music making in the regions by the Arts Council the BBC has an even greater part to play in my view. It's also a way of using the Proms handle to perhaps highlight to the wider public the existence of those orchestras.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I can pretty much guarantee that this weeks Live on 3 evening concerts will be of similar quality to the Proms unless Boris Giltburg . the Philharmonia , the LPO and RLPO have forgotten how to play over the summer break. I can also sadly pretty well guarantee little comment about these concerts on the Forum whereas the moans or , if you prefer , acutely relevant criticism of Essential Classics , Breakfast will go on for the rest of time,

In fact both Prommer and Aunt Daisy have previewed tonight’s and tomorrow’s Live On 3 concerts . Excellent !

[AuntDaisy]

In fact both Prommer and Aunt Daisy have previewed tonight’s and tomorrow’s Live On 3 concerts . Excellent !

Can I still moan about Breakfast or Essential Classics?