Sunday Morning

[vinteuil]

Hans Keller was a personality in a way that Richard B wasn’t . He was the archetypal bland BBC presenter surely ?

Richard Baker was the start of a long line of 'presenters' whose names became known, and which thereafter became the focus of the programme - leading to the Brian Kay, Katie Derham, Elizabeth Alker, Tom McKinney, Sean Rafferty, Petroc Trelawny etc syndrome of focussing on the 'personality' of the presenter rather than the seriousness of the content. Oh, clearly a 'choice' made by the BBC to do this, to make it cuddly and 'user-friendly'....

[oddoneout]

On a factual note it is still the case that Radio 3 broadcasts much more classical music than any other genre and that it broadcasts more classical music in absolute terms than it did in the sixties , seventies , eighties and nineties - thanks largely to Through The Night. The justification for it being on Radio 3 is that the channel has always featured high quality lighter music and in particular has featured Julie Andrews before.

There may be more quantity but I'm not convinced that the quality has increased or is equivalent. In this context I'm not talking about standard of performance, or type of music even, but the balance between a clickcount simply for a piece of music and broadcasting of music as it was generally intended to be heard, ie complete. Even if the incomplete pieces are of music I like or wish to hear I have realised that that bitty approach was having a bad effect on my ability to listen to complete works so now listen very little to the bulk of the output; the afternoon setup renders itself largely unusable for me due to things like lack of timings to calculate when a particular item will be played and the horrid habit of deconstructing concert or recital recordings from festivals etc. Afternoons were once a major part of my listening. The evening concerts are as they should be,ie whole works, but sadly are too often music that is of little or no interest to me, to a greater degree than I remember being the case previously. The home of classical music often seems to be somewhat devoid of Classical music, and as for anything earlier...

[Ein Heldenleben]

On a factual note most of it is served up as unenlightening presenter-led snippets. A single Schubert Impromptu followed by Bernard Herrmann's Vertigo... And in the sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties the BBC had fewer 24-hour radio stations. I don't count presenter-led snippets as unadulterated classical music.



There you have it - an unsocial hours programme which you can access later on BBC Sounds. Not a radio station as it once was.



To repeat: it's not about one single programme about Julie Andrews. If that was all it was,, I predict there'd be little outcry. And you don't address the question of why it wasn't on Radio 2 in the first place rather than Radio 3.

Point one - sentence one of yours is an opinion not a fact as is sentence 4.
Point two - nothing is at it once was - that is the nature of life and broadcasting.
Pont three - there is no “outcry” other than a couple of people on this forum. Those who don’t object might just not want to engage given the response we get .
I don’t address the question because I’m not the controller of either station and don’t know the answer.My guess is that Radio 2 doesn’t do light music much any more at all - see point two.

[french frank]

Point one - sentence one of yours is an opinion not a fact as is sentence 4.

And point taken, though remove the subjective word 'unenlightening' and I think my point stands. Breakfast as a 'classical' station is stressed by R3. Essential Classics is deemed to be the classical works that are essential to someone. Classical Live is a mixed bag. In Tune has a classical focus but not to play full-length works. So we arrive at the evening concert ... except on Fridays.

Point two - nothing is at it once was - that is the nature of life and broadcasting.

What I'd love to hear spelled out (but never will) is the behind-the-scenes thinking behind the way R3 has been changing.

Pont three - there is no “outcry” other than a couple of people on this forum. Those who don’t object might just not want to engage given the response we get .

On a strictly factual note, I didn't actually say there was an outcry: I said there wouldn't be one if the programme was a one-off, by which I meant that an occasional fall from grace would pass without comment.

I don’t address the question because I’m not the controller of either station and don’t know the answer.My guess is that Radio 2 doesn’t do light music much any more at all - see point two.

Indeed. Which brings us back to why light music in the form of FNIMN should be thought a perfect fit for Radio 3. I wondered what you thought. I didn't expect an official BBC statement

[Ein Heldenleben]

And point taken, though remove the subjective word 'unenlightening' and I think my point stands. Breakfast as a 'classical' station is stressed by R3. Essential Classics is deemed to be the classical works that are essential to someone. Classical Live is a mixed bag. In Tune has a classical focus but not to play full-length works. So we arrive at the evening concert ... except on Fridays.



What I'd love to hear spelled out (but never will) is the behind-the-scenes thinking behind the way R3 has been changing.



On a strictly factual note, I didn't actually say there was an outcry: I said there wouldn't be one if the programme was a one-off, by which I meant that an occasional fall from grace would pass without comment.



Indeed. Which brings us back to why light music in the form of FNIMN should be thought a perfect fit for Radio 3. I wondered what you thought. I didn't expect an official BBC statement

Don’t ask me about why Controllers make decisions - but for all the pseudo science and marketing cobblers whim and fancy play a large part in it and I worked in heavy duty area - current affairs. FNIMN is clearly not a perfect fit . Nothing is because the breadth of music is so vast and even within classical music there are those who love it but who hate opera , vocal music, the flute etc …

[french frank]

and even within classical music there are those who love it but who hate opera , vocal music, the flute etc …

I thinkit was John Drummond who said when he was controller that Radio 3 had 'n' (don't remember the number - Aunt Daisy will know) different audiences who - I think he suggested - wanted Radio 3 to broadcast all the things that they liked and none of the things they hated and were generally unreasonable, not that intelligent and would never be satisfied. I may have paraphrased a bit but if he didn't say it - he jolly well thought it!

It seems possible that what goes under a general heading of 'new music' has increased so enormously that even the vast expansion of BBC radio (let's leave television out of it) from the original three stations has failed to keep up with that increase so that there is not enough airtime for an arts and culture station as it was originally conceived by Haley. What gets pushed out is drama (too expensive), speech programmes (too dry) and still classical music, jazz and world get watered down to meet lower expectations. The 'broader audience' is just a cynical way of saying 'bigger audiences' for the BBC. I'm not completely oblivious of the problems faced by BBC managers. I don't know whether they buy into the ideas because they know no better (fools) or know better but have self-interested agendas (knaves).

On the whole I recognise the ideas (and mourn) behind the Guardian's piece: Are we living in a golden age of stupidity?

[Ein Heldenleben]

I thinkit was John Drummond who said when he was controller that Radio 3 had 'n' (don't remember the number - Aunt Daisy will know) different audiences who - I think he suggested - wanted Radio 3 to broadcast all the things that they liked and none of the things they hated and were generally unreasonable, not that intelligent and would never be satisfied. I may have paraphrased a bit but if he didn't say it - he jolly well thought it!

It seems possible that what goes under a general heading of 'new music' has increased so enormously that even the vast expansion of BBC radio (let's leave television out of it) from the original three stations has failed to keep up with that increase so that there is not enough airtime for an arts and culture station as it was originally conceived by Haley. What gets pushed out is drama (too expensive), speech programmes (too dry) and still classical music, jazz and world get watered down to meet lower expectations. The 'broader audience' is just a cynical way of saying 'bigger audiences' for the BBC. I'm not completely oblivious of the problems faced by BBC managers. I don't know whether they buy into the ideas because they know no better (fools) or know better but have self-interested agendas (knaves).

On the whole I recognise the ideas (and mourn) behind the Guardian's piece: Are we living in a golden age of stupidity?

It was John Drummond I think who said that organ enthusiasts are only interested in that and even within jazz there was a divide between trad and bebop. It was impossible to please everyone. Radio 3 now covers a vast range of music as did the Radio 3 of old. The big difference is the assumptions they make about the listeners knowledge perhaps reflecting the decline in music education; and the almost complete absence of intelligent analysis outside Record Review, the Sunday Feature and the odd specialist programme like the Early Music show. The managers you castigate are neither fools nor knaves but are dealing with a dumbed down culture - some embrace it , some hold their nose and get on with the job,

Reading Sumptions History of the 100 years War - now that’s what I call a Golden Age (of stupidity )

[LMcD]

Point one - sentence one of yours is an opinion not a fact as is sentence 4.
Point two - nothing is at it once was - that is the nature of life and broadcasting.
Pont three - there is no “outcry” other than a couple of people on this forum. Those who don’t object might just not want to engage given the response we get .
I don’t address the question because I’m not the controller of either station and don’t know the answer.My guess is that Radio 2 doesn’t do light music much any more at all - see point two.

If it stlll does, I'm blowed if I can find it.

[french frank]

It was John Drummond I think who said that organ enthusiasts are only interested in that and even within jazz there was a divide between trad and bebop. It was impossible to please everyone.

Yes that was the bit I was reporting faithfully with total accuracy

Radio 3 now covers a vast range of music as did the Radio 3 of old.

More vast now. I doubt Drummond had more extensive evidence for what he asserted than a couple of green ink letters. Or fewer.

The big difference is the assumptions they make about the listeners knowledge perhaps reflecting the decline in music education and the almost complete absence of intelligent analysis outside Record Review, the Sunday Feature and the odd specialist programme like the Early Music show.

I think this embodies the whole concept of the controversial 'dumbing down' accusation. It conflates ignorance and what I will term a lack of intellectual alertness rather than stupidity. I was (and still am) ignorant when it comes to the depths of classical music but I found the old Radio 3 very rewarding and enlightening as a consequence. I think R3 now serves not merely the ignorant but also the intellectually lazy - listeners who don't want to be stretched, even though they very well might have the mental capacity. That's not considered entertaining.

The managers you castigate are neither fools nor knaves but are dealing with a dumbed down culture - some embrace it , some hold their nose and get on with the job,

The fools and knaves opposition is cliché. You say they embrace it (dumbed-down culture) or hold their noses. Our two depictions overlap, I think.

[cloughie]

... but why the fig should these things invade the tiny space available for classical music? Why the fig are they on radio 3 in the first place?? Why do we have to 'give way' to products for which there is apparently no room on their original, appropriate, channels - the Light Programme, Radio 2???



.

…and like R3 competing with CFM, the Beeb feel the need for R2 to compete with all the other pop providers. How many people actually tune in to R2 of an evening, unless they are on the move, compared to watching the diverse tv offerings, streaming films and boxed sets.

[gradus]

A reminder of Bruckner's genius this morning with the inspired and inspiring Adagio from the seventh symphony in Barenboim's BPO recording, needless to say playing of the first order.

[smittims]

I'm afraid I could only listen to the symphony complete. An exception would be Furtwangler's studio recording of the adagio , his only gramophone recording of any Bruckner , made by request (not his) ,apparently .

[LMcD]

...... birdsong, and equally chirpy presenters....

[LMcD]

On a factual note most of it is served up as unenlightening presenter-led snippets. A single Schubert Impromptu followed by Bernard Herrmann's Vertigo... And in the sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties the BBC had fewer 24-hour radio stations. I don't count presenter-led snippets as unadulterated classical music.



There you have it - an unsocial hours programme which you can access later on BBC Sounds. Not a radio station as it once was.



To repeat: it's not about one single programme about Julie Andrews. If that was all it was,, I predict there'd be little outcry. And you don't address the question of why it wasn't on Radio 2 in the first place rather than Radio 3.

I could, if I chose, also record it on my TV overnight, but it's easier to pick the cherries online via BBC Radio 3 Schedules (which I find more customer-friendly than Sounds).
You're correct, of course, in pointing out that it's not what we've always considered to be a radio station.

[french frank]

You're correct, of course, in pointing out that it's not what we've always considered to be a radio station.

Nor even the only source from which one can cherry pick the works one would like to listen to.