BaL 08.06.24 - Mozart: Piano concerto 23 in A major, K488

[oliver sudden]

... yes : it is unlikely that Bach used equal temperament for the WTC. There were various 'well-tempered' tuning systems available at the time which allowed playing in all keys. I believe the current understanding is that Werckmeister III was the one he favoured ; the seminal article on the subject was John Barnes "Bach's keyboard temperament" (Early Music 7/2 1979)

.

Some more recent researches have managed to derive a tuning system from the title page of Bach’s manuscript:

http://www.larips.com/

[oliver sudden]

I suppose there are now electric pianos which allow just intonation in each key at the flick of a switch.

If not electric pianos then certainly keyboards attached to various computing devices. But if you’re going to change (musical) key beyond a certain point you’ll crash into the problem of there only being 12 (physical) keys per octave, so you’ll have to choose between your Ab and your G# (I’ve done concerts with early music groups where the change from Ab to G# on the harpsichord had to be planned on the timetable).

And if you actually want a full dominant chord in just intonation in F# minor, bang go your F naturals!

One recording of KV488 I keep coming back to is Rubinstein/Barbirolli. Lots of things that ought to rule it out, really. There’s quite a bit of scampering going on which less sympathetic ears would just call rushing. And the orchestra and piano tempi are somewhat at odds in the slow movement if I remember right. And there’s a bit of music missing after the cadenza in the first movement, presumably to allow for the demands of 78s. Tremendously lively performance though.

[Ein Heldenleben]

If not electric pianos then certainly keyboards attached to various computing devices. But if you’re going to change (musical) key beyond a certain point you’ll crash into the problem of there only being 12 (physical) keys per octave, so you’ll have to choose between your Ab and your G# (I’ve done concerts with early music groups where the change from Ab to G# on the harpsichord had to be planned on the timetable).

And if you actually want a full dominant chord in just intonation in F# minor, bang go your F naturals!

One recording of KV488 I keep coming back to is Rubinstein/Barbirolli. Lots of things that ought to rule it out, really. There’s quite a bit of scampering going on which less sympathetic ears would just call rushing. And the orchestra and piano tempi are somewhat at odds in the slow movement if I remember right. And there’s a bit of music missing after the cadenza in the first movement, presumably to allow for the demands of 78s. Tremendously lively performance though.

On the question of Mozart and Equal temperament it’s thought he used some form of irregular temperament on his fortepiano . There is good documentary evidence that in voice and variable tuned instruments he discriminated between minor and major semitones*. In some temperament systems of the day A flat was in fact sharper than G sharp.
Older harpsichords sometimes has split back keys presumably to get round the retuning problem ?

* It would take to long to explain what this is about and I’m not sure I quite “get” it
I’m re reading that temperament book . I’ll never listen to a scale the same way.

[Mandryka]

Some notes from Beghin's Haydn may be of interest re Mozart's tuning

his Virtual Haydn Tom Beghin records some of the music on instruments tuned unequally, including the Sauschneider Capriccio, which he writes about extensively in the liner notes, saying

. . . a unique Capriccio on
the folk tune "Acht Sauschneider müssen sein," Hob. XVII :1 (1765). Standardization—
whether it relates to tuning, instrument, notation, rhetoric, or performance—is definitely
not the keyword here. . .

For the Capriccio, we deliberately chose to tune the harpsichord in a quarter-comma
mean tone temperament. This tuning, though referred to as the "old" system, was
still explained in an 1805 Viennese tuning manual. Certain extant organs or fretted
clavichords confirm that the temperament was used well into the eighteenth century.
The unavoidable "wolf's fifth" in our tuning is between E-flat and G-sharp. The pain, as
I play my first D-sharp, is excruciating. It's not the howling of a wolf, but (enough with
decorum!) the squealing of a pig.

He recorded the big E flat major sonata twice, once with equal temperament and once with unequal, the difference is worth hearing for sure. He writes:

We recorded Sonata no. 52 twice: first, showcasing its English roots (BD 3, tracks 31-33),
then, in its Viennese appropriation (BD 3, tracks 20-22). The tuning systems used for
each performance reflect a similar shift from the specific to the generic. In England, we
used a "well temperament" by Thomas Young, as submitted to the Royal Society in 1799.
In Vienna, we bet on the future with Johann Nepomuk Hummel's "easy and convenient"
quasi-equal temperament of 1829. (In 1803 Haydn recommended Hummel as his
successor at the Esterházy Court.) The shock of an equal temperament—which comes
across as bland after extended exposure to the various colors of unequal tunings—
reminds us of another cultural prejudice: it is perfectly possible that listeners used to
modern tuning will find our earlier temperaments shocking.

[Ein Heldenleben]

After all this temperament and tuning discussion I thought I’d settle down to K488 with Curzon and the ECO and “good old fashioned” (?) equal temperament. The piano sound is so lacking in top it’s shocking. It’s a Decca 24 bit transfer.
Superb performance though.

[oliver sudden]

On the question of Mozart and Equal temperament it’s thought he used some form of irregular temperament on his fortepiano . There is good documentary evidence that in voice and variable tuned instruments he discriminated between minor and major semitones*. In some temperament systems of the day A flat was in fact sharper than G sharp.
Older harpsichords sometimes has split back keys presumably to get round the retuning problem ?

* It would take to long to explain what this is about and I’m not sure I quite “get” it
I’m re reading that temperament book . I’ll never listen to a scale the same way.

As far as I know a minor semitone (or ‘chromatic semitone’) would be, say, C to C#, and a major semitone (or ‘diatonic semitone’) C# to D. The former would usually be smaller than the latter, certainly in the tuning systems of Mozart’s time as far as I understand them.

Tom Beghin’s work with historical keyboards is extremely interesting. I’ve seen him do a lecture recital on phrasing indications in Mozart and Beethoven and how closely they’re bound up with the specific fortepianos they had, particularly their speed of decay. Obvious to some extent I suppose.

[Retune]

I actually bought the movie from Apple. I had several houseguests that wanted to see it and apparently renting wasn’t an option. However, while there was an actress playing Yudina, I don’t know if an actual recording featuring her was used

According to the composer of the soundtrack, Christopher Willis:

'The Mozart and the Tchaikovsky are both drawn from the historical record. The concert at the start of the film is largely a true story. We did actually re-record all that music, so that it would be sonically similar to the score cues – and that’s actually me playing the piano in the Mozart.'

http://magazine.scoreit.org/sound-mother-russia-christopher-willis-scoring-death-stalin/

[richardfinegold]

According to the composer of the soundtrack, Christopher Willis:

'The Mozart and the Tchaikovsky are both drawn from the historical record. The concert at the start of the film is largely a true story. We did actually re-record all that music, so that it would be sonically similar to the score cues – and that’s actually me playing the piano in the Mozart.'

http://magazine.scoreit.org/sound-mo...-death-stalin/

Thank you for that

[Goon525]

Pollini/VPO/Böhm is for me one of the great Mozart records. Not always acknowledged thusly back in the day. Their Beethoven concertos were also fabulous.

[Barbirollians]

Another one for the list - Imogen Cooper's account directing the Northern Sinfonia . I think she made four discs for Avie of Mozart concertos and all of them are very fine.

[cloughie]

Pollini/VPO/Böhm is for me one of the great Mozart records. Not always acknowledged thusly back in the day. Their Beethoven concertos were also fabulous.

I agree with you there. His 12/24 and 17/21 directing VPO from the piano are also well worth a listen.

[CallMePaul]

Pollini/VPO/Böhm is for me one of the great Mozart records. Not always acknowledged thusly back in the day. Their Beethoven concertos were also fabulous.

I have their Moxart recording on cassette and played it regularly in the past, but I no longer have the equipment to play cassettes so it may have to go to a charity shop. It apears not to be available on CD from Presto so I suspect that if Amazon has it it will b e at an inflated price.

Some years ago I was given the Barenboim/ Berlin Phil box set of all the concerti as a present but I find Barenboim's style in Mozart too romantic for my taste. I also have Jos van Immerseel on a fortepiano in a set of all the concerti and Brendel/ Marriner on LP. I will liosten to this with interest but I suspect that the shortlist played will not be to my taste.

[pastoralguy]

I have their Moxart recording on cassette and played it regularly in the past, but I no longer have the equipment to play cassettes so it may have to go to a charity shop. It apears not to be available on CD from Presto so I suspect that if Amazon has it it will b e at an inflated price.

Some years ago I was given the Barenboim/ Berlin Phil box set of all the concerti as a present but I find Barenboim's style in Mozart too romantic for my taste. I also have Jos van Immerseel on a fortepiano in a set of all the concerti and Brendel/ Marriner on LP. I will liosten to this with interest but I suspect that the shortlist played will not be to my taste.

The Pollini/Bohm Mozart 23 is available from Amazon for £1.37.

[Barbirollians]

I see there is a recent summer BAL on this and then I find I started it !

Other faves Fischer/Boult and particularly Rubinstein/Wallenstein . I love AR’s Mozart concerto records .

[Pulcinella]

I see there is a recent summer BAL on this and then I find I started it !

Other faves Fischer/Boult and particularly Rubinstein/Wallenstein . I love AR’s Mozart concerto records .

I'd completely forgotten that.

Here's the link!

https://www.for3.org/forums/forum/classical-forum/record-review/our-summer-bal/22680-our-summer-bal-no-76-mozart-piano-concerto-no-23-k488

PS after skimming through.
It got a bit bogged down with performance practice etc, as evinced perhaps by this comment from BBMmk2, which was post 83 on the thread:

Anybody recommend a recording, please?