I enkoyed the Josef Suk piano quintet opus 8 on the drivetime programme last night. Never heard this piece before and was surprised to learn that it was by Suk , a composer i had always dismissed and melancholy and old fashioned. Always disliked his orchestral stuff but felt this chamber composition was sublime.
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I don’t know that piece. I wonder if it resembles his father in laws Op.81 Piano QuintetOriginally posted by Ian Thumwood View PostComment
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Lawdes Deo - Consort Musicke set for viols by Christopher Tye - Hesperion XX, .
The CD cover has dear old Sir Henry Unton (of recent The Early Music Show fame) on the right.
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...characterised by a mood of consistent torment. From beginning to end it is an expression of misery and complete despair... it is marked only by a sense of loss and pain.
What musical work is described here? Wozzeck ? Mahler's sixth? Francesca da Rimini? In fact it's Mozart's G minor Quintet, in a 1966 sleeve note by Jurgen Dohm. I heard it today played by the Heutling Quartet with Hans-Otto Graf, second viola. Now I've always thought of this as rich and vivid work , but as much uplifting and life-enhancing as expressive of the darker side of life. Such is the fascination of 'abstract' music. Maybe we find just what we are looking for , no more, no less.Comment
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this Strauss, Tchaikovsky Pathetique, Dvorak NWS and a few shorter works on a new Pristine Audio release, all from 1941-42.Comment
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A few years ago there appeared a huge and very expensive (at least I thought £153 expensive for a book) biography of Mengelberg,the first I've seen . I wonder if he'd be as much discussed without the controversy of his activities during the occupation. At any rate , he was exceptional aong trhe really eminent conductors in being denied an 'Indian Summer' of vintage late performances. So his best recordings do stem from 1940-45, such as the Telefunken Heldenleben , a work Strauss dedicated to him.Comment
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What I particularly enjoyed about the Pristine release is that with the exception of Beethoven Five, the “Mangleberg” reputation wasn’t in evidence. These were generally straightforward.
I thought it was interesting that they were allowed to play Russian music in Amsterdam as the invasion of the USSR was unfoldingComment
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Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
Richard
Not familiar with that but given it is only Opus 8 , it would not surprise me. It was enjoyable even if i struggle with the fact that Suk was a late19th /early 20th century composer when this music was out of vogue . It is a bit like with Rachmaninov who I think was really old fashioned. I was told that the latter really hated Debussy and had no truck with the way music was developing in his time. Amazing to think that Messaien had written his piano preludes at the same time Rachmaninov was in US. The Russian was an anachronism and this is a bit of an obstacle for me just as it is with Suk. After Mahler , Faure and Scriabin, i just feel Romanticism had explored everything and was obsolete.
It is strange how some composers persisted with Romanticism long after it became unfashionable. I imagine that the critical establishment would gave been hostile towards Suk and Rachmaninov 100 years ago.
I had previously given Suk a wide bearth and the piano quartet was atypical of the dourness of his other work Czech music is interesting and Janacek is my favourite. I don't mind Ma Vlast yet feel Smetana can be uneven. The folk music element has an appeal which i suppose is typified by Dvorak whose music i am discovering works best as an antecedent to Janacek. Otherwise , Dvorak can be a bit corny to my ears and verge towards Light music.. He is hit and miss for me whereas Janacek always seems on the money. The chamber music CD is have is a better example of Dvorak pointing the way towards Janacek.
I keep wanting Martinu to take the music a step beyond Janacek and i have a few discs of his work , none of which really stand out as being major works but they aee always pleasing . There is so much music by Martinu who i feel churned out loads of bang average works. It is like musical wallpaper. Martinu lived in France amongst so many brilliant composers who i admire yet nothing i have heard is more any than pleasant. I don't think he was a major composer. He is someone i have high hopes for yet the music is always just agreable and not really revelatory. By contrast , the Suk piece very much grabbed my ears.
i like the folk element of Czech music but it is double edged sword for me. I like the idea of Czech music being a bit prickly and edgy which i why i like the stirribg compositions of Janacek. Not so fussed when Czech music becomes very populist and akin to less serious , lightweight composers like Grieg who should be quietly forgotten.Comment
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I don't think it at all 'strange' that some composers persisted with Romanticism; I think the mistake is to think it became unfashionable. It has always been very popular with the listening public, witness the huge amount of Romantic film music written and enjoyed by millions over the last hundred years, which shows no sign of becoming 'unfashionable.'
I don't think any composer should feel an obligation to 'keep up' stylistically with his more cutting-edge colleagues. Rachmaninov was never concerned to do so, though his music was closer to the modern before his departure from Russia, e.g. the op. 39 Etudes-Tableaux, thre op. 38 songs and the opera Francesca da Rimini. The experience of leaving Russia , having to leave all his property behind and settle in a country whose language was strange to him , rendered him unable to compose for several years. His late works are inevitably backward looking, though their quality is surely beyond dispute . With that in mind it surely doesn't matter that his Third Symphony wasn't as radical as Webern's . What does 90-year-old fashion matter today?
Composers today find a freedom in writing in ann idiom of their choosing, without feeling a pressure to be avant-garde, witness the return of tonality in many new works heard in the last few years. I think Rachmaninov made the right choice to stay with Romanticism rather than try to be a follower of Stravinsky or Schoenberg, and we are the beneficiaries, as many a fine recent performance of the Symphonic Dances demonstrates.Comment
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Ian, if you have any problems with listening to Rachmaninov, just tell yourself he was composing in the 1860s.Comment
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It is an interesting question and i think it is possible to compose in an earlier style as long as you are being creative. I think that Romanticism is problematic as it can imply populism and does have a tendency to be hackneyed or even kitsch. It did outstay it's welcome and , to cite Grieg again , the style could end up producing empheria like Peer Gynt. At some point , it stopped being 'serious' or produced piano music where the musicality was superceded gymnastic qualities.
To my ears, the 20th century classical music is often about cleansing the influence of Romanticism so you get Impressionists and Neo Classicist composers returning to writing more musical and less over blown works.
i do find it strange that Rach and Scriabin were close as the latter effectively squeezed the last drop out of Romanticism towards a very original approach. I would havr seen Rach as a genius had he been around 50 years earlier . I think he was writing for a less demanding American audience. It is hard to understand his motives....a kind of schmultzy , proto Hollywood film music that is sickly, sweet.Comment
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Exactly !Originally posted by Sir Velo View Post
If Rachmaninov had been an animal , he would have been considered a living fossil.Comment
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Somewhat surprising that Ian is so effusive in his praise of Suk and so lukewarm towards Dvorak when the former's pleasant early piano quintet owes a huge debt in its inspiration to the latter's piano quartet and quintet, composed decades earlier!Comment
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Sir Velo
Never heard tbe Dvorak but will play on Youtube later. Prefer the Dvorak chamber music to the orchestral works although not over familiar.Comment
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In your highly selective history of music you seem to have ignored the Second Viennese School. Their music and those of their followers is what constitutes most 20th Century avant garde. It held sway in Western Academia for most of a century and composers who didn’t follow suit didn’t get grants, had their music withheld from promotion by organizations such as the BBC, and generally foisted upon unwilling and uncomprehending audiences. Ultimately composers rebelled against this system (Raatavaura, Lutoslawski, many others) and decided that perhaps having an appreciative audience was a good idea.Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
The notion that the intellectual foundations of music must progress in a straight line is a common one. Composers such as Rachmaninov, Sibelius, and Vaughn Williams knew that they were out of fashion. Yet they couldn’t write music that they didn’t believe in just to please the gatekeepers of high culture.
Polystylism, incorporating techniques from the vast history of music, is now common. Schnitke comes to mind as he was hugely influential.
Fwiw I listened to the Suk Quintet that you recommended and while it is pleasant enough, after 5 minutes my attention wandered, as it does with all of his music except for his Serenade. You really ought to get to know Dvorak Op.81.
Rachmaninov was a genius. Not everything he wrote was a masterpiece. Suk was imo third rate
btw, according to an AI search there is no history of Rachmaninov commenting upon DebussyComment
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