What Classical Music Are You listening to Now? IV

[Stanfordian]

Schubert – ‘Lieder with Orchestra’ – Sofie von Otter & Thomas Quasthoff
21 Lieder orchestrated by Reger, Britten, Berlioz, Webern, Liszt, Offenbach & Brahms
Anne Sofie von Otter (mezzo-soprano)
Thomas Quasthoff (bass-baritone),
Chamber Orchestra of Europe / Claudio Abbado
Recorded Live 2002, Grand Salle, Cité de la musique, Paris
Deutsche Grammophon, CD

Mozart – Mitsuko Uchida
Piano Concerto No. 20 in D minor, K. 466
Piano Concerto No. 27 in B flat major, K. 595
Mitsuko Uchida (piano/direction)
Cleveland Orchestra
Recorded 2010, Severance Hall, Cleveland
Decca, CD

[smittims]

That's a good point about ballet recordings, richard. indeed, most of the famous ballets (Tchaikovsky, Delibes,etc.) exist in various 'cut' versions used for stagings over the years , and indeed for a long time record companies and listeners seemed content with highlights disc. Maybe the expanding of recording budgets and the onset of CD prompted the idea of preserving the whole score (in the same way that operas , often cut on stage ,were recorded complete).

I liked Aunt Daisy's illustration. The disc reminded me of an old favourite, a Oiseau-Lyre LP directed by Thurston Dart, 'The Royal Brass Music of James I'

Another dip into the late 1950s was my last listening:

Beethoven. Sonata in E op.109. Wilhelm Backhaus. He was the first pianist I listened to , as my father had his second recording of the Grieg concerto, with Eugene Goossens ,and I even heard him live,as he played to the end of his life in 1969. Whe I first heard his records of the Beethoven sonatas I thought them too brusque, but. over the years,as one learns to appreciate a dry white wine, I've come to think they are perhaps the closest to the spirit of Beethoven , except perhaps for Artur Schnabel.

[Tapiola]

Here, Stockhausen's Mixtur (full orchestra version). It's been a daily listen for the last fortnight and I'm just starting to make a little sense of it! Wonderful.

[Ian Thumwood]

The idea of what constitutes a National Music probably comes down to the use of that countries folk music by their composers. However those treatments can differ substantially. Ives and Copland both use American Folk music but in very different ways. Price sounds more like Dvorak in style and her use of Americana.
Sometimes the music of all 3 can sound cringe worthy to me, at least on first exposure, because they conjure visions of American Protestant religious revival meetings, but after a few listens one realizes that the adaption of these themes are secondary to a larger vision. Perhaps your acquaintance with English Composers triggers some kind of a similar reaction in you . However there are real beauties to be had in Vaughn Williams, Butterworth and Holst and it’s a shame if they are unappreciated by listeners who may be put off by the relative simplicity of the music that inspired grander canvases.
For example, RVW Third Symphony is a work that is targeted as being English Cowpat. It was written however when he was serving as an ambulance driver in the muck and gore of Flanders. Underneath the Folk references there is a painful longing for a world that has been cruelly blasted out of existence.
Stravinsky Rite of Spring has always sounded as the height of a modern, savage type of music. It is interesting to hear the Russian Folk tunes that he used as the basis for most of his themes. Bartok similarly mutated Hungarian Folk songs to end of with an International Sound

Richard

It is interesting that you cite Bartok because i think he managed to get the use of Folk music spot on. For me, he represents the ultimate in taking folk forms and reusing the material in such an original fashion. I have to say that i think Bartok is the greatest composer after JSB. I read a book by Paul Griffiths about his approach to composition back in the 1990s which gave me an analytical aporoach to his composition. This just made me think he was even better than what my ears were telking me. I have quite a bit of his piano music(mainly Microcosmos) and he was clearly thinking in a wholly original manner.

I get the appeal of English folk music although i share your embarrassment with the folk music of your country. As i said , everyone else's folk music aounds better than your own. I agree about tge cringe factor which is only exceded by Scottish or Irish folk. I genuinely hate this stuff.

Villa Lobos composed piano works akin to Bartok's Microcosmos which really appeal. They are called Guia Practical. These also use folk music . If you look at something like 'Amazonias' , you have to conclude that he also sussed how to employ folk music into classical music.

It is an interesting debate. I am not a fan of folk influence in British classical music but at least that is not as bad as the Lizst / Brahms Hungarian Dances which are the absolute nadir in folk influenced classical music. Kitsch rubbish that is a hooky as anything sold by Del Trotter. Not worthy of serious consideration.

[Tapiola]

Ian,

I have been following your posts about classical music with interest, but, with respect, I cannot help but feel you are a neophyte in this regard. Self-awareness is a beautiful thing, or should be. I respect your wide-ranging knowledge of jazz (of which I am a neophyte myself, having only found a way in in the last few years, and for this I am thankful for your steers in that direction - but I would not dream of saying Trane is better than Blakey or to suggest that anyone else in jazz is rubbish or worthless). Your classical opinions seem based on quite superficial premises, (although I agree that Bartok is a great 20th Century composer - but the best?). I would need evidence of this. Your views on folk musics (whatever their origin) also seem ignorant to me.

There are many things I would not agree with smittims about, but this does not make me feel impelled to disregard the music he likes and call it rubbish. For myself, I dislike Delius intensely.

I regard this constant back-and-forth with him as very tedious and boring. I speak for myself, but it makes these boards, or at least the certain threads I have interest in, quite "worthless" ( to use a favourite phrase of yours).

Nothing wrong with being a neophyte (as we all are in some ways) but surely we can have the wisdom to shut up when we realise we should. Being grown up about how we react to music (as in life) saves us from embarrassing ourselves in public.

[DoctorT]

Inspired by last Saturday’s BaL:
Dvorak
Piano Quartets in D major and Eb major
Domus

I’d almost forgotten how good his chamber music is

[smittims]

Carl Orff: Oedipus der Tyrann. From an intense media 10-CD set. This appears to be a recording of the premiere, at the Wurtemburg opera, conducted by Ferdy Leitner. It's surprisingly good sound for 1959 and sounds a little like 'electronic stereo' . Very committed performances from Astrid Varnay and Gehard Stolze who went on to sing their roles in the Deutsche Grammophon studio recording conducted by Rafael Kubelik.

I believe few of the many who enjoy Carmina Burana go on to listen to Orff's later music. A pity,as it has much to offer, in my view. I recommend also Tony Palmer's splendid documentary , O Fortuna!. With many illustrative passages conducted by Donald Runnicles, it's an ideal introduction to Orff's life and work.

[LMcD]

Inspired by last Saturday’s BaL:
Dvorak
Piano Quartets in D major and Eb major
Domus

I’d almost forgotten how good his chamber music is

I have a Brilliant Classics set that's full of wonderful pieces.

[Stanfordian]

Anja Harteros – Wagner, Berg, Mahler – Orchesterlieder
Wagner
'Wesendonck-Lieder'
Berg
'Sieben Frühe Lieder'
Mahler,
'Rückert-Lieder'
Anja Harteros (soprano),
Münchner Philharmoniker / Valery Gergiev
Recorded 2018 (Wagner), 2019 (Mahler), 2020 (Berg), Philharmonie, Munich
MPhil, CD

Brahms – String Quintets – Hagen Quartet & Gérard Caussé
String Quintet No. 1 in F major, Op. 88
String Quintet No. 2 in G major, Op. 111
Hagen Quartet,
Gérard Caussé (viola)
Recorded 1996 Grosser Saal, Mozarteum, Salzburg
Deutsche Grammophon, CD

[cloughie]

That's a good point about ballet recordings, richard. indeed, most of the famous ballets (Tchaikovsky, Delibes,etc.) exist in various 'cut' versions used for stagings over the years , and indeed for a long time record companies and listeners seemed content with highlights disc. Maybe the expanding of recording budgets and the onset of CD prompted the idea of preserving the whole score (in the same way that operas , often cut on stage ,were recorded complete).

I liked Aunt Daisy's illustration. The disc reminded me of an old favourite, a Oiseau-Lyre LP directed by Thurston Dart, 'The Royal Brass Music of James I'

Another dip into the late 1950s was my last listening:

Beethoven. Sonata in E op.109. Wilhelm Backhaus. He was the first pianist I listened to , as my father had his second recording of the Grieg concerto, with Eugene Goossens ,and I even heard him live,as he played to the end of his life in 1969. Whe I first heard his records of the Beethoven sonatas I thought them too brusque, but. over the years,as one learns to appreciate a dry white wine, I've come to think they are perhaps the closest to the spirit of Beethoven , except perhaps for Artur Schnabel.

Interesting, I was not aware that there was a Backhaus Goossens recording - what label and when was the recording made? - I have the old BarbiroIii ex 78s recording.

[Sir Velo]

I regard this constant back-and-forth with him as very tedious and boring. I speak for myself, but it makes these boards, or at least the certain threads I have interest in, quite "worthless" ( to use a favourite phrase of yours).

"Speak roughly to your little boy,
And beat him when he sneezes;
He only does it to annoy,
Because he knows it teases."

[richardfinegold]

Carl Orff: Oedipus der Tyrann. From an intense media 10-CD set. This appears to be a recording of the premiere, at the Wurtemburg opera, conducted by Ferdy Leitner. It's surprisingly good sound for 1959 and sounds a little like 'electronic stereo' . Very committed performances from Astrid Varnay and Gehard Stolze who went on to sing their roles in the Deutsche Grammophon studio recording conducted by Rafael Kubelik.

I believe few of the many who enjoy Carmina Burana go on to listen to Orff's later music. A pity,as it has much to offer, in my view. I recommend also Tony Palmer's splendid documentary , O Fortuna!. With many illustrative passages conducted by Donald Runnicles, it's an ideal introduction to Orff's life and work.

I have sampled Orff’s other works, and I respectfully disagree. I haven’t heard anything worth revisiting. Orff imo was the Classical Equivalent of what is known in pop music as a “one hit wonder”, and Carmina Burana is analogous to the Kingstons ‘Louie, Louie’.
Now Smittens we are in agreement about ballet music. Most of the great ones that have independent lives as concert works are in the Suite Form. Two exceptions come to mind. The first is the complete Nutcracker, which I only knew in Suite form for many years prior to hearing the entire work, which is tremendous and now sounds incomplete if I only hear various suites. Debussy Jeux would make even less sense than it does as a purely musical experience if abridged.

[richardfinegold]

Monteux, Boston Symphony, a double CD package from a concert December 1963.
Elgar Enigma
Sibelius Swan of Tuonela
Vaughn Williams Tallis Fantasia
Beethoven Fourth Symphony

the Chief interest here are the RVW and Sibelius works which afaik Monteux did not commercially record. They are both extremely well done.
The Beethoven Fourth Is really good, particularly the last movement. I haven’t heard Monteux studio accont(s) in a long time but this may be my favorite Fourth, at least for now.
The Elgar is similar to the LSO studio version, but perhaps more quiet and reflective. Nimrod is somewhat less glowing here.
Available from 78experience

[Ian Thumwood]

Ian,

I have been following your posts about classical music with interest, but, with respect, I cannot help but feel you are a neophyte in this regard. Self-awareness is a beautiful thing, or should be. I respect your wide-ranging knowledge of jazz (of which I am a neophyte myself, having only found a way in in the last few years, and for this I am thankful for your steers in that direction - but I would not dream of saying Trane is better than Blakey or to suggest that anyone else in jazz is rubbish or worthless). Your classical opinions seem based on quite superficial premises, (although I agree that Bartok is a great 20th Century composer - but the best?). I would need evidence of this. Your views on folk musics (whatever their origin) also seem ignorant to me.

There are many things I would not agree with smittims about, but this does not make me feel impelled to disregard the music he likes and call it rubbish. For myself, I dislike Delius intensely.

I regard this constant back-and-forth with him as very tedious and boring. I speak for myself, but it makes these boards, or at least the certain threads I have interest in, quite "worthless" ( to use a favourite phrase of yours).

Nothing wrong with being a neophyte (as we all are in some ways) but surely we can have the wisdom to shut up when we realise we should. Being grown up about how we react to music (as in life) saves us from embarrassing ourselves in public.

Tapiola

Thanks for your thoughtful email.

i have been listening to classical music since early 1990s but largely limited to composers from 1890s to mid 20th century. I got into Bach through the piano but otherwise worked backwards from Messaien and the likes of Gavin Bryars. A lot of the Canon has no interest to me and i would rather listen to someone like Villa Lobos to Schubert.

i see classical music in a broader context as i like to draw the dots between harmomy and rhythm and how this approach infkuences jazz or other composers. My taste has broaded but i think there is a chunk that won't appeal. Not all jazz is great and ithink the same applies to classical.

Pm if you want me to elaborate .

[smittims]

You're quite right, cloughie , it was Barbirolli not Goossens, and my apologies for any misleading, but it's an interesting example of how the human brain works like a computer . I knew it was the New Symphony Orchestra,and I knew Goossens made several recordings with them around that time (indeed, he was a former member). So my brain short-circuited and linked the two names.

I can't remember when I last saw my Dad's 78s but it must have been nearly 60 years ago. My first record of the Grieg was Solomon/Menges, ASD 272.

No mistake, anyway, about today's listening. Two very old Deutsche Grammophon LPs:

Schubert Octet. The Berin Philharmonic Octet. 18 286. Lovely sleeve , a monochrome facade with one or two details picked out in red. As a lover of long lyrical slow movements I enjoyed their slow tempo for the second movement here.; and

Purcell: Pavane and Chaconne
Pergolesi: Concertino no.2. The Festival Stringsof Lucerne, Rudolf Baumgartner. 18 460.