Mahler

[HighlandDougie]

I have a huge question mark hanging over Klaus Mäkelä taking on the Concertgebouw Orchestra in the massive 8th Symphony in this year's series. OK, in the first part once the organ sets it in motion all the conductor can do is make sure it all hangs together. Part 2 is a very different matter and requires a conductor of operatic experience. Mäkelä is 29 and is doing this with one of the great Mahler orchestras of the world. He's also belting through whole swathes of the repertoire at breakneck speed and I predict burn out before too long. Has he conducted the work before, preferably in some out of the way location in order to properly learn the piece? Sorry, he shouldn't be learning on the job in front of the world's great orchestras and shouldn't be doing Mahler 8 at this early stage of his career.

I'm sure that Petrushka may be right but, to give Klaus Mäkelä some credit, he is at least prepared to take on the 8th, a symphony avoided if at all practicable by some otherwise eminent Mahlerians. And I don't agree with the rather harsh judgement that he, "shouldn't be doing Mahler 8 at this early stage of his career". I suspect that he might have been a bit older but Simon Rattle springs to mind as a comparison? I have an off-air recording of Mäkelä in Mahler 3 (which is not at all bad as a performance) so I might be prepared to cut him a little pre-perfomance slack for the 8th.

[Petrushka]

I'm sure that Petrushka may be right but, to give Klaus Mäkelä some credit, he is at least prepared to take on the 8th, a symphony avoided if at all practicable by some otherwise eminent Mahlerians. And I don't agree with the rather harsh judgement that he, "shouldn't be doing Mahler 8 at this early stage of his career". I suspect that he might have been a bit older but Simon Rattle springs to mind as a comparison? I have an off-air recording of Mäkelä in Mahler 3 (which is not at all bad as a performance) so I might be prepared to cut him a little pre-perfomance slack for the 8th.

Rattle conducted the Mahler 8 for the first time in 2004 with the CBSO when he was 49 which seems to me a sensible enough age. He is quoted in Nick Kenyon's biography, published in 2000 as claiming not to understand the work.

I'm hoping to attend KM's performance of the Mahler 5 at the Proms, partly to see what the fuss is all about, so haven't got any particular animus towards him. However, a Mahler 8 with THE Mahler orchestra at the age of 29 would have sent most of the great maestros running for the hills in terror. I'd have to do a bit research to find out when the great Mahler conductors first tackled the work but my off the cuff guess would be round about 50 for those who did it at all.

[silvestrione]

Rattle conducted the Mahler 8 for the first time in 2004 with the CBSO when he was 49 which seems to me a sensible enough age. He is quoted in Nick Kenyon's biography, published in 2000 as claiming not to understand the work.

I'm hoping to attend KM's performance of the Mahler 5 at the Proms, partly to see what the fuss is all about, so haven't got any particular animus towards him. However, a Mahler 8 with THE Mahler orchestra at the age of 29 would have sent most of the great maestros running for the hills in terror. I'd have to do a bit research to find out when the great Mahler conductors first tackled the work but my off the cuff guess would be round about 50 for those who did it at all.

No, Rattle did the 8th first at the Proms with the National Youth Orchestra, 2002: I was there, one of the great evenings...

[bluestateprommer]

Regarding the interruptions, I heard both as well. Probably a bit of finger-trouble with someone on the control panel. I don’t speak dutch so no idea what was said.

Same here. However, I stuck out hearing the NHK SO Mahler 3. The odd unexpected announcements in the middle of the 1st movement aside, I thought that this was a very fine performance. Not note-perfect, but the orchestra got well into the spirit of the music, with a terrific posthorn solo. There is a historic justification for inviting the NHK SO, namely their recording back in 1930 of Mahler 4 when the orchestra was known as the New Symphony Orchestra of Tokyo, one of the first commercial recordings of a complete Mahler symphony (if not the first). Unfortunately, right after the last note sounded, the Continental equivalent of the doofus who wrecked the atmosphere at the end of Haitink's Proms Mahler 3 in 2016 did the same too soon at the end of Luisi's Mahler 3 in Amsterdam, with a too-early "Bravo!", which presenter Selma van Dijk noted herself (obviously not in a disapproving way; can't alienate your audience, after all). Still, warts and all, well worth hearing.

I did get caught out today on the NHK's concert of selected Des Knaben Wunderhorn lieder (with Matthias Goerne) and Mahler 4 (with Ying Fang). This Mahler 4 was a bit of a comedown compared to yesterday's Mahler 3, but I would put that more at the feet of Fabio Luisi rather than the orchestra, since he indulged in some rather brisk and at times glib tempi and phrasing, which undercut the NHK SO musicians more than once, at least IMVHO, especially in the 1st 2 movements. The slow movement went better on balance, with fewer idiosyncrasies. Ying Fang fully saved the day in the finale, where perhaps the microphone balance revealed a rather forthright tone that hadn't hit me when I saw two of her HD performances from the Metropolitan Opera (Tannhauser in 2015, Fidelio this year). She sang very well and more than delivered the goods. Need to catch up with the first half later.

[Petrushka]

No, Rattle did the 8th first at the Proms with the National Youth Orchestra, 2002: I was there, one of the great evenings...

I was there too! Rather embarrassing of me to have forgotten the year, most unlike me. Yes, you are correct and he was therefore 47.

[bluestateprommer]

Quite unbelievably an announcer came on halfway through the first movt. of the Mahler 3....I'm listening via VRadio app., anyone else get it?

Edit. It's happened again, just five minutes before the end of the first movt!! What are they playing at? Now it's the pause between 1st and 2nd movt...and the female announcer makes an announcement, well you could almost understand that...but I'd rather not have it.....waiting now for another announcement mid-movt!

2nd Edit. I've given up on the Mahler 3 and possibly the rest of the festival....another announcement in the brief interval between the 2nd and 3rd movts!!!

This is the most annoying concert I've listened to in a long time!!

I checked the page of the currently archived Mahler 3 from the NHK SO and Fabio Luisi:

https://www.npoklassiek.nl/concerten/df186a52-4040-490b-bdc1-7a09b1c1f9a6/mahler-festival-2025-symfonie-nr-3

From what I can tell, by jumping back to the time of the original Dutch-language overlay announcements, NPO Klassiek has done some post-production on the radio relays to remove those overlays. The announcer's introduction and post-performance commentary have also been removed. I think that the latter especially is standard practice when NPO Klassiek makes audio available after the original broadcast.

I guess that my message here with this Mahler 3 is: give it another chance.

[Roger Webb]

I checked the page of the currently archived Mahler 3 from the NHK SO and Fabio Luisi:

https://www.npoklassiek.nl/concerten/df186a52-4040-490b-bdc1-7a09b1c1f9a6/mahler-festival-2025-symfonie-nr-3

From what I can tell, by jumping back to the time of the original Dutch-language overlay announcements, NPO Klassiek has done some post-production on the radio relays to remove those overlays. The announcer's introduction and post-performance commentary have also been removed. I think that the latter especially is standard practice when NPO Klassiek makes audio available after the original broadcast.

I guess that my message here with this Mahler 3 is: give it another chance.

Thanks for the trouble.......I'll do that - Mahler 3 is really one of my favourites, and I try to hear all those broadcast if they look interesting....but that intrusion had me switching over!

[HighlandDougie]

Rattle conducted the Mahler 8 for the first time in 2004 with the CBSO when he was 49 which seems to me a sensible enough age. He is quoted in Nick Kenyon's biography, published in 2000 as claiming not to understand the work.

I'm hoping to attend KM's performance of the Mahler 5 at the Proms, partly to see what the fuss is all about, so haven't got any particular animus towards him. However, a Mahler 8 with THE Mahler orchestra at the age of 29 would have sent most of the great maestros running for the hills in terror. I'd have to do a bit research to find out when the great Mahler conductors first tackled the work but my off the cuff guess would be round about 50 for those who did it at all.

Yes, very young. 40 seems to be the starting age, even for whizz-kids like Yannick N-S, with, "around 50", being more like the norm. Mäkelä, it seems, has spent much of the last year studying the score and preparing for the performance, knowing that he would be very much under scrutiny, being thought much too young and inexperienced to take on such a monumental piece. However, he (and the orchestra et al) seem to have survived the experience, as the Concertgebouw performance was warmly reviewed in the Dutch press. With the Dutch being known as a people who call spades spades, I think that counts as a general thumbs-up.

[bluestateprommer]

Yes, very young. 40 seems to be the starting age, even for whizz-kids like Yannick N-S, with, "around 50", being more like the norm. Mäkelä, it seems, has spent much of the last year studying the score and preparing for the performance, knowing that he would be very much under scrutiny, being thought much too young and inexperienced to take on such a monumental piece. However, he (and the orchestra et al) seem to have survived the experience, as the Concertgebouw performance was warmly reviewed in the Dutch press. With the Dutch being known as a people who call spades spades, I think that counts as a general thumbs-up.

The orchestra and Decca evidently thought these performances good enough for a commercial recording release:

https://www.concertgebouworkest.nl/en/audio-video/audio/live-recording-of-mahlers-symphony-no-8-with-klaus-makela/

The much-maligned Hurwitz has a YT video review, which I've not yet watched. But the header would seem to indicate that it's not as bad as he was expecting it to be (probably an incorrect evaluation without yet having watched the video. I'd like to wait until I hear the recording, which presumably was a patch job of the two performances, before watching his take on it.)

Since Mahler 8 is more "public" in its expression than "private", IMVHO, it may not be as much of a stretch for younger conductors to take it on. Stokowski was not quite 34 when he led the US premiere in 1916 of Mahler 8 with the Fabulous Philadelphians, for one. Mengelberg was 39 at the time of the world premiere, and just shy of 41 when he conducted the Dutch premiere in Amsterdam in 1912. "El Dude" was just around 30 at the time of his Simon Bolivar SO performances, captured for release on DG.

[HighlandDougie]

The orchestra and Decca evidently thought these performances good enough for a commercial recording release:

https://www.concertgebouworkest.nl/en/audio-video/audio/live-recording-of-mahlers-symphony-no-8-with-klaus-makela/

The much-maligned Hurwitz has a YT video review, which I've not yet watched. But the header would seem to indicate that it's not as bad as he was expecting it to be (probably an incorrect evaluation without yet having watched the video. I'd like to wait until I hear the recording, which presumably was a patch job of the two performances, before watching his take on it.)

It'll be interesting to know what those Mahler-fans who like/love this symphony think of the performance. Petrushka? Where are you in our hour of need? As a generality (and not to do with this quite well-recorded-if-nothing-else performance), I'm afraid that the setting of, "Veni Creaor Spiritus", is another bit of musical marmite for me. I've persevered twice with the Mäkelä but I wouldn't feel short-changed if I never heard the setting ever again. Part Two is IMUO rather more interesting but, overall, I can understand why a few eminent Mahlerians seem to give the 8th a bit of a body-swerve.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It'll be interesting to know what those Mahler-fans who like/love this symphony think of the performance. Petrushka? Where are you in our hour of need? As a generality (and not to do with this quite well-recorded-if-nothing-else performance), I'm afraid that the setting of, "Veni Creaor Spiritus", is another bit of musical marmite for me. I've persevered twice with the Mäkelä but I wouldn't feel short-changed if I never heard the setting ever again. Part Two is IMUO rather more interesting but, overall, I can understand why a few eminent Mahlerians seem to give the 8th a bit of a body-swerve.

Only heard the first movement. To be honest I didn’t think it as good as the Danish Radio Symphony/ Fabio Luisi performance on Evening Concert this Monday. I’ll listen to all of it if there’s a more enthusiastic post from some one!

[oliver sudden]

I used to think re the 8th that it wasn’t much of a piece but was always really effective in concert.

And then I realised how silly that was.

[vinteuil]

I used to think re the 8th that it wasn’t much of a piece but was always really effective in concert.

And then I realised how silly that was.

... I think those who dislike the more bombastic side of Mahler have a real problem with the eighth - I know I do

But just wait for my transcription of it for solo clavichord!


.

[oliver sudden]

... I think those who dislike the more bombastic side of Mahler have a real problem with the eighth - I know I do

But just wait for my transcription of it for solo clavichord!
.

Of course if you don’t like it in concert either, that’s another matter. But if you like it in concert, given that it was obviously written with no thought whatsoever for home sound systems, then that is really the proof of the pudding, and if it doesn’t transfer to the home situation then that’s a fault with the home listening medium rather than with the piece…

[HighlandDougie]

In concert, I have simply gritted my teeth and suffered Part One. But, as the last time I heard it live was some time ago, I wondered if I might have mellowed towards it but neither Mäkelä or Fabio Luisi - to which I also listened - can persuade me of any merits which it might possess.