Mahler

[gurnemanz]

The Eighth is a special event. Getting a performance on the road is already an achievement. I first heard it in concert under Herbert Kegel in Leipzig in 1973. I know that the performance date had to be postponed once simply because all the pieces were not in place. Delighted to see that it has appeared on YouTube: Mahler: 8. Sinfonie (Leipzig 1973 Kegel - Casapietra Breul Burmeister Pohl; Goldberg Lorenz Polster)

Only quite recently did I get to know the phenomenal Horenstein 1959 event via BBC Legends (MusicWeb review). I have good recordings by Leonard Bernstein, Rafael Kubelik, Klaus Tennstedt, George Solti and Michael Gielen but find that I tend to sit down and listen to the Eighth less than the others.

[smittims]

The eighth is for me the odd one out, and I think it helps to know that although it wasn't premiered till 1910 he wrote it at an unusually optimistic time of his life, before his heart diagnosis; also it was always intended as a more public work than his other symphonies .

I came to know it at the same time as Gurrelieder , and , as with the Mauretania and the Titanic , the two works have superficial similarities but deeply significant differences. Gurrelieder is much easier on the mind , and to me more enjoyable, but Mahler's 8th asks more questions and is more thought-provoking.

[Roslynmuse]

Maybe it's inevitable that such a vast piece should be uneven and provoke mixed responses. I think - despite the thematic connections - the language of the two parts is quite different. Part 2 harks back to the Wunderhorn symphonies in style, whereas the extreme polyphony of Part 1 (often tortuous) is really unlike anything else Mahler wrote. I've played the vocal score in choir rehearsals many times and it is always a relief to get past the Latin and back to German. [I feel about Mahler 8 as I do about Rach 3rd Piano Concerto - mostly I quite dislike it, but the ending is so wonderful that I forget that I haven't much enjoyed the previous 35 mins!]

[Petrushka]

In concert, I have simply gritted my teeth and suffered Part One. But, as the last time I heard it live was some time ago, I wondered if I might have mellowed towards it but neither Mäkelä or Fabio Luisi - to which I also listened - can persuade me of any merits which it might possess.

I've not heard the 8th for a long time and as the Mäkelä is download only, for the time being, I've not heard that either.

Hurwitz says in his video that the first movement doesn't need a conductor, it needs a traffic cop, something I think a conductor also said, possibly Solti, I'm not sure.

Yes, it's a bit of a scream-fest but many of the themes used in this first movement are used again and transformed in the second part, most especially the theme at Accende lumens sensibus which is the key theme in Part 2 and of the whole work. This first part can be absolutely mind-blowing in a live performance with all that extra brass but it does make sense when the connections between the two parts are clearly grasped.

[oliver sudden]

For me it’s more the middle reaches of the second movement that risks straining my patience… if the performers aren’t very careful indeed it can turn into an absolute cavalcade of kitsch.

[HighlandDougie]

In concert, I have simply gritted my teeth and suffered Part One. But, as the last time I heard it live was some time ago, I wondered if I might have mellowed towards it but neither Mäkelä or Fabio Luisi - to which I also listened - can persuade me of any merits which it might possess.

[oliver sudden]

... I think those who dislike the more bombastic side of Mahler have a real problem with the eighth - I know I do

But just wait for my transcription of it for solo clavichord!
.

Of course if you don’t like it in concert either, that’s another matter. But if you like it in concert, given that it was obviously written with no thought whatsoever for home sound systems, then that is really the proof of the pudding, and if it doesn’t transfer to the home situation then that’s a fault with the home listening medium rather than with the piece…

[vinteuil]

I used to think re the 8th that it wasn’t much of a piece but was always really effective in concert.

And then I realised how silly that was.

... I think those who dislike the more bombastic side of Mahler have a real problem with the eighth - I know I do

But just wait for my transcription of it for solo clavichord!


.

[oliver sudden]

I used to think re the 8th that it wasn’t much of a piece but was always really effective in concert.

And then I realised how silly that was.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It'll be interesting to know what those Mahler-fans who like/love this symphony think of the performance. Petrushka? Where are you in our hour of need? As a generality (and not to do with this quite well-recorded-if-nothing-else performance), I'm afraid that the setting of, "Veni Creaor Spiritus", is another bit of musical marmite for me. I've persevered twice with the Mäkelä but I wouldn't feel short-changed if I never heard the setting ever again. Part Two is IMUO rather more interesting but, overall, I can understand why a few eminent Mahlerians seem to give the 8th a bit of a body-swerve.

Only heard the first movement. To be honest I didn’t think it as good as the Danish Radio Symphony/ Fabio Luisi performance on Evening Concert this Monday. I’ll listen to all of it if there’s a more enthusiastic post from some one!

[HighlandDougie]

The orchestra and Decca evidently thought these performances good enough for a commercial recording release:

https://www.concertgebouworkest.nl/en/audio-video/audio/live-recording-of-mahlers-symphony-no-8-with-klaus-makela/

The much-maligned Hurwitz has a YT video review, which I've not yet watched. But the header would seem to indicate that it's not as bad as he was expecting it to be (probably an incorrect evaluation without yet having watched the video. I'd like to wait until I hear the recording, which presumably was a patch job of the two performances, before watching his take on it.)

It'll be interesting to know what those Mahler-fans who like/love this symphony think of the performance. Petrushka? Where are you in our hour of need? As a generality (and not to do with this quite well-recorded-if-nothing-else performance), I'm afraid that the setting of, "Veni Creaor Spiritus", is another bit of musical marmite for me. I've persevered twice with the Mäkelä but I wouldn't feel short-changed if I never heard the setting ever again. Part Two is IMUO rather more interesting but, overall, I can understand why a few eminent Mahlerians seem to give the 8th a bit of a body-swerve.

[bluestateprommer]

Yes, very young. 40 seems to be the starting age, even for whizz-kids like Yannick N-S, with, "around 50", being more like the norm. Mäkelä, it seems, has spent much of the last year studying the score and preparing for the performance, knowing that he would be very much under scrutiny, being thought much too young and inexperienced to take on such a monumental piece. However, he (and the orchestra et al) seem to have survived the experience, as the Concertgebouw performance was warmly reviewed in the Dutch press. With the Dutch being known as a people who call spades spades, I think that counts as a general thumbs-up.

The orchestra and Decca evidently thought these performances good enough for a commercial recording release:

https://www.concertgebouworkest.nl/en/audio-video/audio/live-recording-of-mahlers-symphony-no-8-with-klaus-makela/

The much-maligned Hurwitz has a YT video review, which I've not yet watched. But the header would seem to indicate that it's not as bad as he was expecting it to be (probably an incorrect evaluation without yet having watched the video. I'd like to wait until I hear the recording, which presumably was a patch job of the two performances, before watching his take on it.)

Since Mahler 8 is more "public" in its expression than "private", IMVHO, it may not be as much of a stretch for younger conductors to take it on. Stokowski was not quite 34 when he led the US premiere in 1916 of Mahler 8 with the Fabulous Philadelphians, for one. Mengelberg was 39 at the time of the world premiere, and just shy of 41 when he conducted the Dutch premiere in Amsterdam in 1912. "El Dude" was just around 30 at the time of his Simon Bolivar SO performances, captured for release on DG.

[HighlandDougie]

Rattle conducted the Mahler 8 for the first time in 2004 with the CBSO when he was 49 which seems to me a sensible enough age. He is quoted in Nick Kenyon's biography, published in 2000 as claiming not to understand the work.

I'm hoping to attend KM's performance of the Mahler 5 at the Proms, partly to see what the fuss is all about, so haven't got any particular animus towards him. However, a Mahler 8 with THE Mahler orchestra at the age of 29 would have sent most of the great maestros running for the hills in terror. I'd have to do a bit research to find out when the great Mahler conductors first tackled the work but my off the cuff guess would be round about 50 for those who did it at all.

Yes, very young. 40 seems to be the starting age, even for whizz-kids like Yannick N-S, with, "around 50", being more like the norm. Mäkelä, it seems, has spent much of the last year studying the score and preparing for the performance, knowing that he would be very much under scrutiny, being thought much too young and inexperienced to take on such a monumental piece. However, he (and the orchestra et al) seem to have survived the experience, as the Concertgebouw performance was warmly reviewed in the Dutch press. With the Dutch being known as a people who call spades spades, I think that counts as a general thumbs-up.

[Roger Webb]

I checked the page of the currently archived Mahler 3 from the NHK SO and Fabio Luisi:

https://www.npoklassiek.nl/concerten/df186a52-4040-490b-bdc1-7a09b1c1f9a6/mahler-festival-2025-symfonie-nr-3

From what I can tell, by jumping back to the time of the original Dutch-language overlay announcements, NPO Klassiek has done some post-production on the radio relays to remove those overlays. The announcer's introduction and post-performance commentary have also been removed. I think that the latter especially is standard practice when NPO Klassiek makes audio available after the original broadcast.

I guess that my message here with this Mahler 3 is: give it another chance.

Thanks for the trouble.......I'll do that - Mahler 3 is really one of my favourites, and I try to hear all those broadcast if they look interesting....but that intrusion had me switching over!

[bluestateprommer]

Quite unbelievably an announcer came on halfway through the first movt. of the Mahler 3....I'm listening via VRadio app., anyone else get it?

Edit. It's happened again, just five minutes before the end of the first movt!! What are they playing at? Now it's the pause between 1st and 2nd movt...and the female announcer makes an announcement, well you could almost understand that...but I'd rather not have it.....waiting now for another announcement mid-movt!

2nd Edit. I've given up on the Mahler 3 and possibly the rest of the festival....another announcement in the brief interval between the 2nd and 3rd movts!!!

This is the most annoying concert I've listened to in a long time!!

I checked the page of the currently archived Mahler 3 from the NHK SO and Fabio Luisi:

https://www.npoklassiek.nl/concerten/df186a52-4040-490b-bdc1-7a09b1c1f9a6/mahler-festival-2025-symfonie-nr-3

From what I can tell, by jumping back to the time of the original Dutch-language overlay announcements, NPO Klassiek has done some post-production on the radio relays to remove those overlays. The announcer's introduction and post-performance commentary have also been removed. I think that the latter especially is standard practice when NPO Klassiek makes audio available after the original broadcast.

I guess that my message here with this Mahler 3 is: give it another chance.