Mahler Symphony no. 9

[Richard Barrett]

Does Mahler quote W H Monk's tune to 'Abide with Me' in the finale? Is there any evidence that he knew the hymn, perhaps from his time in the USA?

No Mahler specialist that I've read seems willing to give a definitive answer to that. It's possible, but then again it could equally be a coincidence.

[Petrushka]

Yes there were at least two live performances of Mahler 9 made around the time of the Tennstedt recording.

One of the earlier symphonies to be recorded circa 1979.

In those days you might get a Thursday evening followed by a Sunday afternoon rendition of the same concert.

I see from the recording dates that it was taped in May 1979 so that explains why I never knew of a performance as my first LPO/tennstedt concert was the Mahler 3 in October 1979 and KT never did the 9th again it seems, perhaps not having much sympathy for it.

[Barbirollians]

Perhaps this thread should be merged with this one

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?8478-Your-Favourite-Recording-of-Mahler-9&highlight=Mahler+haitink

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Perhaps this thread should be merged with this one

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...Mahler+haitink

Done!

[Barbirollians]

And possibly my rather more narrowly focused Haitink Mahler 1970 thread too ...

Meanwhile I played the Barbirolli in its analogue format today for the first time in ages . Took me right back to the day I bought the 2 cassette set on Farringdon Records for £3.99 and the Mahler 6 the same day for the same price. It is a great record with a wonderful account of the finale in particular .

What records he and the BPO might have made together had he been given another ten years of life .

[Conchis]

My personal favourite is Giulini's 1976 performance with the CSO: it won a Grammy award. It's the most beautiful performance of the work I know, though Giulini certainly doesn't 'prettify' the music.

[Bryn]

For me the 1938 Walter has a very special place, but the most devastatingly affecting for me is the 2008 Norrington, rightly Gramophone Editors Choice - May 2010.

[ahinton]

For me the 1938 Walter has a very special place, but the most devastatingly affecting for me is the 2008 Norrington, rightly Gramophone Editors Choice - May 2010.

The Norrington was devastating for me, too, though not in the way that I'd care to expand on; sorry.

[kea]

IIRC, those Audite recordings (from about ten years later than the DG Studio recordings) are from Live recordings - individual concerts, too, rather than edited from different events and rehearsals.

That may be why I prefer the Audite recordings in every instance I've heard.... >.>

[Richard Barrett]

What is thought about Bernstein's fanciful suggestion that the very opening depicts Mahler's faltering heartbeat?

My feeling is there isn't much to be gained from this kind of illustrative approach to Mahler - I have much respect for Bernstein of course, but there's a risk here of imposing a single "interpretation" on something which admits of many different ones. For me the opening is much more a case of disconnected musical fragments - an oscillating accompaniment figure, a four-note melodic cell, a horn melody, being drawn after a few bars into an interlocking relationship by the beginning of the violin melody. When I write this down it might seem a rather abstract way of hearing this passage, but nothing could be further from the case - the materials thus described are all emotional phenomena as much as sonic ones. It's quite impossible to put such things precisely into words of course, and I'm not claiming any particular qualifications in that area, but I could imagine writing an entire chapter about those first few bars, and the same could be said for pretty much every "few bars" in a Mahler symphony. But there's no need for this since the music communicates so concisely, while opening up vast possibilities for the listener's emotional/intellectual response, on very many levels from the immediate impact of a first hearing (which might indeed be recaptured subsequently) to the most detailed "analytical" mode of listening (I place "analytical" in inverted commas because I hardly ever find that music analysis as practiced by professional musicologists has much to offer apart from either tautology or irrelevant wordspinning). Maybe the "faltering heartbeat" idea has a place somewhere in this world of impressions and associations. But what is a "faltering heartbeat" anyway? Does it have any referent in real lived experience?

Returning to recordings of this piece, I guess I should check out Kubelík's later recordings - the only problem is I know every corner of the earlier ones so well that anything that differs from them might well come across as sounding "wrong"! Yesterday I listened again to the Nott. Somehow I was less aware of its individuality than I had previously been, but maybe I wasn't paying sufficient attention. It's good to be reminded of the Norrington, which I found to be a revelation; but I could actually say the same about Barbirolli or Ančerl; I can see another concentrated session on this piece about to begin...

[richardfinegold]

IIRC, those Audite recordings (from about ten years later than the DG Studio recordings) are from Live recordings - individual concerts, too, rather than edited from different events and rehearsals.

I’m aware of that. I didn’t fully elaborate my point, which is why is it that the Audite recording sounds so much better?
Is it due to improvements in recording techniques from the late sixties to the late seventies? Were there just better engineers for the live performance than DG had in the Studio? A difference in venue? Or, is it due to improvements in the Orchestra, currently one of the best in the world, and captured at two different points in time as they developed?
Some reviews that have compared the two recordings attribute it to last factor. I don’t know the reason but I was wondering if anyone who has had the good fortune to hear the Orchestra over the years had an opinion.
I would love to hear the Bavarians live. I wonder if they will be invited to play in Hamburg’s New Elb Philharmonie. I would cross the pond just for that

[Richard Barrett]

I’m aware of that. I didn’t fully elaborate my point, which is why is it that the Audite recording sounds so much better?
Is it due to improvements in recording techniques from the late sixties to the late seventies? Were there just better engineers for the live performance than DG had in the Studio? A difference in venue? Or, is it due to improvements in the Orchestra, currently one of the best in the world, and captured at two different points in time as they developed?
Some reviews that have compared the two recordings attribute it to last factor. I don’t know the reason but I was wondering if anyone who has had the good fortune to hear the Orchestra over the years had an opinion.

Not (yet) having heard the later recordings I would be inclined to attribute the improvements to engineering. The DG recordings embody a certain aesthetic of studio recording which aims primarily at clarity of detail rather than the kind of conglomerate sound one experiences in a concert hall, and many people would prefer the latter. As far as I'm concerned the orchestra was already a top-class ensemble in the 1960s. Having said that, I think it's gone on improving in the meantime. The last time I heard them was in 2010 when I had the privilege to work with them on a new orchestral composition that was premiered in the Herkulessaal in Munich, which was a greatly inspiring experience.

[Barbirollians]

Mortifyingly, I find I own the BBC Legends Horenstein recording. I have no recollection of listening to it. As I recall it had a good write up on here .

[richardfinegold]

Not (yet) having heard the later recordings I would be inclined to attribute the improvements to engineering. The DG recordings embody a certain aesthetic of studio recording which aims primarily at clarity of detail rather than the kind of conglomerate sound one experiences in a concert hall, and many people would prefer the latter. As far as I'm concerned the orchestra was already a top-class ensemble in the 1960s. Having said that, I think it's gone on improving in the meantime. The last time I heard them was in 2010 when I had the privilege to work with them on a new orchestral composition that was premiered in the Herkulessaal in Munich, which was a greatly inspiring experience.

Congratulations. That must be a very satisfying experience to have an Orchestra of that caliber perform your own music

[Barbirollians]

Haitink's Mahler 9 knocks the massively overrated cold as marble HVK versions into a cocked hat.