Mahler Symphony no. 9

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I don't think that I do "overrate" either of Karajan's recordings of the Mahler #9 - and if Haitink's were the only recording of the work available to me, I'd stick with the score.

[Barbirollians]

I don't think that I do "overrate" either of Karajan's recordings of the Mahler #9 - and if Haitink's were the only recording of the work available to me, I'd stick with the score.

But that is not the Thread title - I've given my "list" (which doesn't include Liszt) and appreciate that many, many people do not share my low opinion of Haitink's Mahler, and I do not begrudge them their inexplicable pleasures.

But I should have included his recordings of Richard Strauss in my list: an excellent Heldenleben, and very good Alpensinfonies and Rosenkavalier.

I did not suggest that you did re HvK. My analogy was with another relatively objective account unlike my favourites the 1938 and 1961 Walter and BPO/Barbirolli.

I would have thought that the Haitink was pretty unobjectionable being a rather wonderfully played pretty straight account . I should be interested to know why you have such a low opinion of it ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I did not suggest that you did re HvK. My analogy was with another relatively objective account unlike my favourites the 1938 and 1961 Walter and BPO/Barbirolli.

But you said that the Karajan was "massively overrated". By whom?

I would have thought that the Haitink was pretty unobjectionable being a rather wonderfully played pretty straight account . I should be interested to know why you have such a low opinion of it ?

"Unobjectionable" and "pretty straight" are not what I want from a Mahler performance, no matter how "wonderfully played". Reading the score, there is so much intensity that the work demands - and gets from Karajan, Walter, Klemperer, Bernstein. As I said, if Haitink were the only recording available to me, I'd leave it and just listen to the score.

But this is not what the Thread is really about.

[Barbirollians]

But you said that the Karajan was "massively overrated". By whom?


"Unobjectionable" and "pretty straight" are not what I want from a Mahler performance, no matter how "wonderfully played". Reading the score, there is so much intensity that the work demands - and gets from Karajan, Walter, Klemperer, Bernstein. As I said, if Haitink were the only recording available to me, I'd leave it and just listen to the score.

But this is not what the Thread is really about.

The Karajan won Record of the Year in Gramophone did it not ?

It leaves me utterly cold.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The Karajan won Record of the Year in Gramophone did it not ?

Yes.

And .... ?

It leaves me utterly cold.

Yes, you've made that very clear, Barbs, and you're by no means the only one who responds in this way. Leaving aside the question as to whether a performance of this work ought to leave one feeling "warm", this does not make the recording/performance "massively overrated" - it only means that you do not respond to the astonishing insights that many others get from it. You do not "rate" it - that doesn't mean that others "overrate" it.

But we won't agree on this - and it is, I'm sure you'll agree, out of place a Thread about "Favourite Haitink recordings"?

[Barbirollians]

Very well I was just interested as to why you dislike the Haitink so much and I am not sure still why.

I may not quite feel the same way as Derick Cooke did about it but it floats my boat in a way few Haitink recordings do - well apart from the fabulous Debussy records on Philips of course .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Very well I was just interested as to why you dislike the Haitink so much and I am not sure still why.

How many euphemisms for "dull" do you want?! (It doesn't so much "leave me cold" - and I am similarly baffled by why anyone should so react to Karajan's searing performance - as just leave me thinking how much better the work is in so many other recordings, and wishing I'd not wasted the 80mins of my life listening to it.)

I may not quite feel the same way as Derick Cooke did about it but it floats my boat in a way few Haitink recordings do - well apart from the fabulous Debussy records on Philips of course .

Those Debussy recordings are exceptionally good.

[visualnickmos]

Karajan's searing performance - as just leave me thinking how much better the work is in so many other recordings, and wishing I'd not wasted the 80mins of my life listening to it.)

Am I right in thinking it's Karajan's Berlin Phil (DG) recording?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Am I right in thinking it's Karajan's Berlin Phil (DG) recording?

Both of Karajan's BPO recordings of the Mahler #9 are on DG, visnick - the "intensely searing" version is a Live(-ish) recording from a couple of years after his Studio recording, which is just "ordinarily searing"

[Bryn]

Both of Karajan's BPO recordings of the Mahler #9 are on DG, visnick - the "intensely searing" version is a Live(-ish) recording from a couple of years after his Studio recording, which is just "ordinarily searing"

I suppose I should give both a spin, but feel it is unlikely that either will displace RN and the Stuttgarters ('live' on Hänssler Classic) in my affections. The sheer emotional devastation presented in the final pages of their performance is, for me, unmatched.

[visualnickmos]

Both of Karajan's BPO recordings of the Mahler #9 are on DG, visnick - the "intensely searing" version is a Live(-ish) recording from a couple of years after his Studio recording, which is just "ordinarily searing"

Thanks. I'm just going to check whether mine is "intense" or "ordinary!"

Just checked, and it is (it says) 'Live recording from the 1982 Berlin Festival' Part of this evening's listening sorted. Thanks for the pointer.

[jayne lee wilson]

See Gramophone, 7/84, for Richard Osborne's detailed comparison of the two Karajan Mahler 9ths.... he broadly preferred the later live one, taken from a 9/82 Berlin Festival Performance...but considers both to be outstanding achievements. (5/81 for the first DG one, 7/70 for the RCOA/Haitink).

The 1984 release was notable at the time for being CD-only, although still stretching across 2 discs.

There's a fascinating two-page reappraisal of Haitink's recently remastered Amsterdam Bruckner & Mahler Cycles in the present issue (7/2019) again by RO.
Interesting detail that producer Jaap van Ginneken monitored the recordings on Quad amps and Electrostatics, an important influence on their unflashy, natural excellence.

[Barbirollians]

Just noticed that someone had embedded the Maderna on You Tube - a record that is now only available at extraordinary secondhand prices .

Looking forward to listening to it this afternoon .

[Barbirollians]

That Lucerne Abbado bluray from 2010 is stupendous.

[BBMmk2]

That Lucerne Abbado bluray from 2010 is stupendous.

As is the CD version.