Mahler 2: Rattled by Rattle

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

More indiosyncracies:

http://hmv.com/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=280;1;-1;-1;-1&sku=864390

[cloughie]

Don't kow it - smut seek it owt. Thanks for the trip!

loo her!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphonies-Nos-2-5/dp/B000026CPD/ref=sr_1_12?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1347400024&sr=1-12

[LeMartinPecheur]

Yes his recording with the tIPO!

Don't kow it - smut seek it owt. Thanks for the trip!

[cloughie]

Would that be Zubin Mehta then?

Yes his recording with the tIPO!

[LeMartinPecheur]

...the differences and the indiosyncracies...

Would that be Zubin Mehta then?

[cloughie]

I always find it interesting when discussions on interpretations take place. There are always those who say it should be played thisay or that way and that so and so's is faithful to the composers markings. BUT composers change their minds, styles change and conductors interpret the way they want it played. Surely the joy of listening is the differences and the indiosyncracies - I got to know Mahler 2 via Bruno Walter, then CSO/Abbado and then CBSO/Rattle put a fresh viewpoint on it for me. There's room for all these - who's wrong or right, is there a wrong or right - who cares as long as they keep on coming. Last year's Proms had the SBO and Dudamel - I enjoyed it greatly - but it got a lot of stick on these boards.

[Keraulophone]

Weeeell: it's not really my "suggestion" - Gustav got there long before me? The triplet figuration first appears in bar 7 and that closing chromatic version derives from a diatonic version in bars 12 & 13 - keeping to the initial Tempo (as Mahler instructs) brings out the family resemblance.

Well, yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice, and Abbado's Lucerne recording is magnificent. But maybe, just maybe, the Music is intended to "unsettle" at this point - to create a mood that is exacerbated by a five-minute pause before the work continues; a mood that is only really "settled" at fig48 of the finale?

I concur with your every word, fhg.

Delighted to have set off such frenzied fossicking into Mahler collections and scores. 2012 is the year I've discovered Mahler and so any input such as that received to date is immensely helpful in understanding these great works.

I've read Jonathan Carr's brief introduction to Mahler - I believe he, too, mentioned the conductor-composer's strange gait. One wonders if this was a product of his being raised within such close proximity of a parade ground. All that brass and marching band seems to have strongly influenced him. Mahler, not just out of step with his time but also with the marching band!

A further note: I oft frequent another forum on Amazon.co.uk, where there are many knowledgeable sorts and strong opinions, but also several t-r-o-l-l-s, which are the bane of the forum and kill debate. I'm delighted to find no such odious creatures here, only an atmosphere at once welcoming and very helpful. Bravo!

This surprises me. I'm no great Mahler person, but I have the Rattle in my collection and always thought it was strongly recommended. I also have recordings conducted by Klemperer and Stokowski (both bought for the soloists, I think, primarily Ferrier and Baker.) I must listen afresh.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I've long been rattled by the tempo of these two bars of descending triplet quavers at the end of 2(i). The score says 'Tempo 1' at bar 441, which fhg suggests should be 'identical' to the pulse of the opening 4/4 Allegro Maestoso marking.

Weeeell: it's not really my "suggestion" - Gustav got there long before me? The triplet figuration first appears in bar 7 and that closing chromatic version derives from a diatonic version in bars 12 & 13 - keeping to the initial Tempo (as Mahler instructs) brings out the family resemblance.

It may be that Rattle is more faithful to the score at this point than Abbado, but I find his performances strangely unsettling, and have no hestitation in placing this Abbado concert performance right at the top of the list of the many I have enjoyed listening to. The Swiss press gushed: 'It would be hard to find anything greater, more significant or more moving anywhere in musical life today: total harmony of mind, and heart, poetry and outcry, fear and consolation, knowing and feeling'.

Well, yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice, and Abbado's Lucerne recording is magnificent. But maybe, just maybe, the Music is intended to "unsettle" at this point - to create a mood that is exacerbated by a five-minute pause before the work continues; a mood that is only really "settled" at fig48 of the finale?

[Keraulophone]

I've highlighted the last para because I know that this is a contentious point in Rattle's live and recorded performances and my memory tells me that this is exactly what Rattle does, whereas many other conductors allow the fallingscale to gather pace, like a ball falling downstairs.

I've long been rattled by the tempo of these two bars of descending triplet quavers at the end of 2(i). The score says 'Tempo 1' at bar 441, which fhg suggests should be 'identical' to the pulse of the opening 4/4 Allegro Maestoso marking. Ignoring the accelerando in bar 4 and 'a tempo' in bar 6, the basic pulse at the start of Claudio Abbado's Lucerne Festival Orchestra performance of 21/8/03 is approximately 80 (crotchet) beats per minute, whereas that final descending scale is taken at a fast but steady 126 bpm; it's an entirely different speed from 'Tempo 1', although in this particular performance the triplets don't gather pace on their way 'downstairs'.

It may be that Rattle is more faithful to the score at this point than Abbado, but I find his performances strangely unsettling, and have no hestitation in placing this Abbado concert performance right at the top of the list of the many I have enjoyed listening to. The Swiss press gushed: 'It would be hard to find anything greater, more significant or more moving anywhere in musical life today: total harmony of mind, and heart, poetry and outcry, fear and consolation, knowing and feeling'.

I'm not sure that was supposed to be funny but it made me laugh anyway. Thanks.

Funny or not so funny: Mahler himself was acutely aware of this (even referred to it in more than one letter of his) and recollections of Mahler by people who knew him and had worked with him -mainly musicians in Vienna and New York (recorded around his centenary in 1960) - unfailingly mention his irregular walking.
The irregular beat (including time changes) in the Scherzo of the sixth are said to be related to this too.

Very interesting - thanks for explaining that. I lack the music vocabulary to always express myself freely but you got what I wanted to know.

I'm the same Thropplenoggin - it's nice to have these musically educated types to tell us what we mean, I find s all round

Difficult to tell whether you mean the whole work or just the first movement, here, Thropple. The score of the First movement is peppered with "hold back" "suddenly in tempo", "not so fast", "there should be an imperceptible accelerando between these two points", "heavily" etc etc. How much "holding back" etc is up to the conductor, and, inevitably, listeners will react differently to different conductors' ideas about this. Fried, Walter, Klemperer (all of whom worked closely with the composer on this work) and Stokowski (who attended rehearsals for the premiere of the Eighth) differ widely (and wildly) from each other - as do Klemperer's various recordings: it's a matter of how they believe these instructions should be performed to reveal this overwhelming score at its incendiary best.

One thing you can do to check a conductor's fidelity to the score is play the opening of the First movement and then the last few bars (the falling chromatic scale from the whole orchestra) - the pulse should be "identical" - or at least as close as can humanly be expected after twenty minutes!

Yes, it was just the first movement. I was so perturbed that I didn't proceed with Disc 2.

A very interesting response - many thanks for explaining that. I lack the music vocabulary to always express myself freely but you got what I wanted to know.

Difficult to tell whether you mean the whole work or just the first movement, here, Thropple. The score of the First movement is peppered with "hold back" "suddenly in tempo", "not so fast", "there should be an imperceptible accelerando between these two points", "heavily" etc etc. How much "holding back" etc is up to the conductor, and, inevitably, listeners will react differently to different conductors' ideas about this. Fried, Walter, Klemperer (all of whom worked closely with the composer on this work) and Stokowski (who attended rehearsals for the premiere of the Eighth) differ widely (and wildly) from each other - as do Klemperer's various recordings: it's a matter of how they believe these instructions should be performed to reveal this overwhelming score at its incendiary best.

One thing you can do to check a conductor's fidelity to the score is play the opening of the First movement and then the last few bars (the falling chromatic scale from the whole orchestra) - the pulse should be "identical" - or at least as close as can humanly be expected after twenty minutes!

Many thanks for this excellent post, ferney

I've highlighted the last para because I know that this is a contentious point in Rattle's live and recorded performances and my memory tells me that this is exactly what Rattle does, whereas many other conductors allow the fallingscale to gather pace, like a ball falling downstairs.