Prom 41: Delius-'A Mass of Life', BBCSO&SC/LPC,J.Davis/Huckle/Philip/R.Williams/Elder

[Maclintick]

Five horns, in fact, as the first, second and third in the orchestra take turns...

Ah..thanks for clearing up my misapprehension, EnemyoftheStoat. From some way back in 'M' stalls, I got the impression one of the orchestral players had swapped to a tenorhorn or similar for that wonderfully evocative passage. The offstage players were hidden from view, but as Roger says, the antiphonal effect was very well captured in the broadcast, listening on Sounds.

[smittims]

I've always wondered why Sargent used a bassoon instead of a bass oboe in his Prom performance . It's hard to imagine the BBC coiuldn't find a bass oboe.After all, Leonard Brain was still playing the part well into the 1970s. I wondered if it was one of Sarent's 'improvements' such as his adding a trumpet to the trombones at the start of the Hymn of Jesus.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Ah..thanks for clearing up my misapprehension, EnemyoftheStoat. From some way back in 'M' stalls, I got the impression one of the orchestral players had swapped to a tenorhorn or similar for that wonderfully evocative passage. The offstage players were hidden from view, but as Roger says, the antiphonal effect was very well captured in the broadcast, listening on Sounds.

I can understand why you thought that, as there was a little of the old French-school timbre - or nowadays Dutch-school - to one of the players' sound.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Yes, tricky passage straight after the break.....and I think Delius calls for six altogether.

Delius made a little mistake in that he indicates in the original score that the bass oboe can be doubled with the cor anglais player, but forgot that in two instances in Part Two they play simultaneously!

We had seven on stage thanks to the presence of a bumper, so officially six. I believe that Delius specified the two off-stage parts to be played by orchestra horns 5 & 6, but the financial and off-stage spatial resources available at the Proms meant they didn't need to fight their way from - or rather back to - the middle of a very crowded stage.

On your other point, I am often amused by what composers think instrumentalists can do - horn mute changes are often optimistic - but this doubling takes the biscuit!

P.S. Hoffnung would have had - indeed may have had - fun with this.

[oliver sudden]

Yes, tricky passage straight after the break.....and I think Delius calls for six altogether.

Delius made a little mistake in that he indicates in the original score that the bass oboe can be doubled with the cor anglais player, but forgot that in two instances in Part Two they play simultaneously!

Appalachia has a low C# for Eb clarinet. A mere minor third below the lowest note on the instrument.

[oliver sudden]

I wonder if someone made a slip and the played note was meant to be written E natural giving a G3 (lowest note on the E flat Clt), and they wrote a minor third below the E by mistake? In other words doubled the minor third transposition. Has no one ever noticed?....apart from you!

It’s a strange bit. Cor anglais, solo viola, and Eb clarinet all in unison, and ending up on the cor’s lowest note… which the clarinet holds half a bar longer than the others although of course it can’t actually play it. Bar 559 if you have a score, in the Misterioso lento before Dd. Really not sure how it happened. I would probably grab my C clarinet for that bit, there’s plenty of time to change.

[smittims]

I've just had a look at that passage in the Beecham edition score (there is another,earlier edition, German possibly) and I'm convinced it's a printing error for a low written E. The Eb clarinet has been playing in (concert) unison with the cor anglais for the previous few bars, and the c.a. has a written d at that point which would play as concert g, same as written E on the eb clarinet. It's the first note on a new page which may explain the mistaken extra ledger line.

The Bridcut film showed part of the autograph score so it should be around somewhere for someone to check. I don't know where Delius' autographs are kept.

My Beecham score (Boosey and Hawkes) has the rehearsal letters (e.g. Dd ) but no bar numbers, oliver, so I don't know where you get yours from (counting?).

[oliver sudden]

I've just had a look at that passage in the Beecham edition score (there is another,earlier edition, German possibly) and I'm convinced it's a printing error for a low written E. The Eb clarinet has been playing in (concert) unison with the cor anglais for the previous few bars, and the c.a. has a written d at that point which would play as concert g, same as written E on the eb clarinet. It's the first note on a new page which may explain the mistaken extra ledger line.

The Bridcut film showed part of the autograph score so it should be around somewhere for someone to check. I don't know where Delius' autographs are kept.

My Beecham score (Boosey and Hawkes) has the rehearsal letters (e.g. Dd ) but no bar numbers, oliver, so I don't know where you get yours from (counting?).

I have the Boosey & Hawkes score (“revised and edited” by Beecham) and the German edition of which you speak, UE 7015, the latter of which has printed bar numbers. (And I admit it: I obtained UE 7015 to see if Beecham might have been responsible, for example by allocating a passage to the Eb that was originally for Bb.)

My copy of the Boosey & Hawkes score has the cor playing low b at that moment though, sounding e. The Eb clarinet low e sounding g would indeed fit the chord. There are lots of possible solutions of course. But no obvious answer to the question of why none of the people responsible for either score spotted a note that is so obviously not on the instrument…

[edashtav]

A sensible, balanced Review by Chris Kettle on Seen and Heard International.
I did wonder whether Chris was related to Martin Kettle, the great Delian but that seems to be unlikely

https://seenandheard-international.com/2025/08/modified-rapture-deliuss-a-mass-of-life-at-the-bbc-proms/

[smittims]

Thanks, oliver. I now wonder if the low B inthe cor anglais is a misprint! Did Beecham alter it to a D? When I have time I'll check which note is played in his own recordings.

At any rate I've always thought that use of the Eb clarinet in its low register wonderfully evocative of the unwelcome dawn breaking.

[Barbirollians]

Finally caught up with this . Absolutely marvellous performance.