"The right to bare arms" and the Elder"states"man.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - they're all surplice to requirements.

[Flosshilde]

I know it makes you feel good to say all that but the point of this thread is not about what performers should/shouldn’t wear but it is about what women should/shouldn’t wear if they want to play in an orchestra. Or that's what Hornspieler who started the thread seems to be saying.

I think that's what Kea was saying, too.

[kea]

but it is about what women should/shouldn’t wear if they want to play in an orchestra.

Women musicians are likely to face stigma from the audiences regardless of what they wear (practical/sensible clothing and some people will consider them 'unwomanly' and make fun of their looks, stylish clothing and other people—or sometimes the same people—will call them tarts and judge them to be making up for substandard musical talent). I understand the desire for a concert to be a formal occasion, so I can understand (if not agree with) strictures against casual clothes and a desire for relative uniformity of appearance among orchestral musicians. But this is the same double standard women have to work against everywhere in professional life, so my view is that if you're not involved in the running of the orchestra, and particularly if you're a man, you don't really get to say anything about how the women are dressed.

Anyway I'll leave now, and @french frank no I don't object to uniformity and formality if that's what the members of the orchestra prefer. (They often do—partly I think because it renders the musicians themselves more or less 'invisible' and allows them to concentrate better on playing!)

[french frank]

Anyway I'll leave now, and @french frank no I don't object to uniformity and formality if that's what the members of the orchestra prefer. (They often do—partly I think because it renders the musicians themselves more or less 'invisible' and allows them to concentrate better on playing!)

Uniformity doesn't have to mean formality

[Lat-Literal]

I would have said (for instance in this case) the principle would be that if those who say, "I personally wouldn't care if the members of the orchestra wore casual clothes—as they often do at rehearsals—or dressing-gowns, or enormous fur coats, or chain mail, or nothing whatsoever" were to give in to those who advocated some sort of comfortable uniformity for all players, everyone would be happy.

But would they be? I doubt it very much: people would find a dozen reasons for disagreeing

I don't disagree.

[doversoul1]

Uniformity doesn't have to mean formality

Traditionally, the image of men in uniforms is associated with status and formal occasions, whereas women in uniforms means they are at work and tended to be less distinguished or lower ranking jobs. Therefore, uniformity in men can mean formality and distinction but not usually in women. This is probably why the idea of women in an orchestra in uniform alongside men dressed formally doesn’t feel quite comfortable (to me).

Whatever it is or isn’t, I don’t really think women’s bare arms in orchestras is anything to fuss about. Bare legs maybe a different matter though. How very odd…

[MrGongGong]

Bare legs maybe a different matter though. How very odd…

Bare legs "odd"?

You certainly are

[french frank]

This is probably why the idea of women in an orchestra in uniform alongside men dressed formally doesn’t feel quite comfortable (to me).

I wasn't suggesting that the men should be 'dressed formally'. I was saying a uniformity of dress needn't be 'formal'; thus men and women can be dressed similarly, but I'm not wedded to the idea of formality at all.

[doversoul1]

I wasn't suggesting that the men should be 'dressed formally'. I was saying a uniformity of dress needn't be 'formal'; thus men and women can be dressed similarly, but I'm not wedded to the idea of formality at all.

Oh, sorry, ff. I wasn’t arguing against your post. It was just my thought about what uniforms and formality could mean that was triggered by your post.