You had to be there

[Gasteiner]

Utterly baffling, GS, but...
Main difference in my setup is the use of an external DAC (T&A DAC8 - revealing of faults to a fault, as it were).
The R3HDs streams out of JRiver on a Macbook via USB asynch, with all nonessential computer functions shut down during music replay ("exclusive access" or "Hog Mode").
This sends on to ATC Pre/Power amps and Harbeth C7IIs. Again very revealing of noise, hiss, drc etc. Whatever I found dislikable about Proms 2015 relays, I never heard hiss as a problem with the RAH orchestras or Cadogan ensembles. (Didn't hear the solo recitals).
OK, so - you need to change something fundamental and see what happens. I guess you're using the analogue output from the desktop? Right, get the digital stream outta there!.
Computers can be very noisy electrical environments and upgraded sound cards may not get around the problem. Can you borrow an external USB DAC, while there's time to access some of the same Proms to compare? That might do it...

I guess you've checked other possible sources of hifi system noise, etc...?

I have done a very large amount of sound recording over many years, and doubt very much that there is anything amiss with my equipment or procedure.

I have tried both an internal sound card (currently an Asus Xonar Essence STX), and an external DAC (currently a Cambridge Audio DAC Magic 100). In each case the outputs from the sound card and external DAC to the amplifier are analogue using decent quality RCA interconnect to the inputs on my Cyrus 8 amplifier. My speakers are Spendor SP2/3r (of similar ilk to your Harbeths).

I find there is little difference in overall sound quality between internal sound card and external DAC. If pressed I marginally prefer the sound of the Burr-Brown PCM 1792A DAC as used in the Asus to the Wolfson WM8742 DAC in the DAC Magic. Both devices offer stable, very high quality. Any further upgrading would be a waste of money in my view.

For use in my desktop PC, I prefer the convenience of the internal sound card. Provided the source material is good, it consistently works very well across all sound sources including TV card, CD, DVD, hard-disk, USB.

I am usually happy with the results I obtain from recordings derived from the BBC i-player, whether it is a live concert or CD material from a playlist programme. As noted, it is specifically this year's Proms from the RAH where I have encountered more than usual noise problems. I used exactly the same procedure in Proms 2013 and 2014 when the noise problems were generally much less noticeable, especially the amount of coughing.

[jayne lee wilson]

Sorry to be negative but I have found the general sound quality of RAH concerts at this year's Proms to be generally very poor.

I have been recording the Proms for many years, and would say that this year's concerts from the RAH have been the worst I have ever heard in terms of unwanted noise levels. There has been an excessive amount of coughing and various other noises, which for me has spoiled the results so badly that I have hardly kept any of the recordings that I tried to make. Apart from noise "spikes" caused by coughs and suchlike, there was also far too much general, continuous background hissy noise, akin to listening to 78s.


My recording equipment is a desktop PC incorporating an Asus Xonar Essence sound card. I record from the BBC iplayer, via the sound card, and use Audacity using 16 bit WAV format. After editing using Audacity, I save at either MP3 320 kbps or AAC. In other contexts I am usually very happy with the results from this recording procedure. Playback is through a computer based system comprising the same Asus sound card, a Cyrus 8 amplifier (c £1000) and Spendor speakers (c £2,500).

This sound equipment is quite revealing, and although I'm quite fussy about sound quality I'm quite happy to accept the occasional noise issue from live recordings. It's simply that the noise problems this year were off the scale in my opinion.

Utterly baffling, GS, but...
Main difference in my setup is the use of an external DAC (T&A DAC8 - revealing of faults to a fault, as it were).
The R3HDs streams out of JRiver on a Macbook via USB asynch, with all nonessential computer functions shut down during music replay ("exclusive access" or "Hog Mode").
This sends on to ATC Pre/Power amps and Harbeth C7IIs. Again very revealing of noise, hiss, drc etc. Whatever I found dislikable about Proms 2015 relays, I never heard hiss as a problem with the RAH orchestras or Cadogan ensembles. (Didn't hear the solo recitals).
OK, so - you need to change something fundamental and see what happens. I guess you're using the analogue output from the desktop? Right, get the digital stream outta there!.
Computers can be very noisy electrical environments and upgraded sound cards may not get around the problem. Can you borrow an external USB DAC, while there's time to access some of the same Proms to compare? That might do it...

I guess you've checked other possible sources of hifi system noise, etc...?

[Beresford]

.... Apart from noise "spikes" caused by coughs and suchlike, there was also far too much general, continuous background hissy noise, akin to listening to 78s.

I too thought there was a lot of hiss, very obvious in the solo Bach concerts. Someone said it might be down to the use of floor mics, rather than mics on stands. You would not think it too difficult to get good quality broadcast sound from a single instrument. Perhaps the producer gave priority to the visual.

[Gasteiner]

Sorry to be negative but I have found the general sound quality of RAH concerts at this year's Proms to be generally very poor.

I have been recording the Proms for many years, and would say that this year's concerts from the RAH have been the worst I have ever heard in terms of unwanted noise levels. There has been an excessive amount of coughing and various other noises, which for me has spoiled the results so badly that I have hardly kept any of the recordings that I tried to make. Apart from noise "spikes" caused by coughs and suchlike, there was also far too much general, continuous background hissy noise, akin to listening to 78s.

My recording equipment is a desktop PC incorporating an Asus Xonar Essence sound card. I record from the BBC iplayer, via the sound card, and use Audacity using 16 bit WAV format. After editing using Audacity, I save at either MP3 320 kbps or AAC. In other contexts I am usually very happy with the results from this recording procedure. Playback is through a computer based system comprising the same Asus sound card, a Cyrus 8 amplifier (c £1000) and Spendor speakers (c £2,500).

This sound equipment is quite revealing, and although I'm quite fussy about sound quality I'm quite happy to accept the occasional noise issue from live recordings. It's simply that the noise problems this year were off the scale in my opinion.

[Anastasius]

I agree totally with all of this.


And I LOVE the idea of "concrete loudspeakers"!

In which case you might enjoy this website !

http://www.saturn-sound.com/history/hi-fi,%20diy%20projects.htm

And here is George's article http://sound.westhost.com/dynamic-range.htm

[teamsaint]

And Jayne's fascinating post post leads inevitably to the question of why people continue to go to listen to music live, when the alternatives can be so attractive.
For the average cost of a ticket to a live concert, travel, parking, mini tub of ice cream, ( lets call it a conservative £50), you can buy a top notch CD at full price, a good bottle of wine, M and S dinner, and cash left over.
No coughing , scratching neighbours, no tall bloke sitting in front of you ruining the view,no dodgy acoustic, no Queue for the ladies ( for the ladies !), etc etc.

Makes you wonder really. Listening to music live has always been absolutely central to my enjoyment of music, but I don't think I have ever really thought about why.

For me, I guess the core of it is that I love experiencing live performance, seeing, witnessing the extraordinary things that people can do. I never tire of seeing somebody perform their own songs, or play at an incredible level of professionalism, or see talented performers in any field. It just isn't the same on the TV.
and then there is sheer curiosity. Will this be that special night, game, performance? If I hadn't have had the good fortune to make it to last Thursday's Prom, I still wouldn't know what the VPO REALLY sound like....even with the RAH acoustic ....my curiosity at least partially satisfied.
And then there is the learning process. maybe its the cheats way, ( the stony but rewarding path being to follow Ferney's Bruckner posts), but I always come out of a live even having learned ( I feel) much more than I ( and we aren't all the same) would have done in the same time with a recording.
and maybe the disappointments are part of the whole learning experience. If there wasn't losing as well as the winning, nobody would ever go to football. Got to know the lows, to enjoy the highs.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's precisely that "comparison to the real thing" that whilst unavoidable, can lead us astray.
So often it focusses on the biggest and grandest of musical works which could only be approached in simulation by a huge speaker system in a hall-sized space.

It isn't so much a lack in hifi or reproduced sound itself as in the scale, the space. But for me this is offset by the potential greater immediacy of sound and emotional connection with smaller-scale works, from Beethoven's orchestra "downwards" into chamber ensembles. But the culture of listening to Recorded (or broadcast) Music - my musical roots - is distinct and rich in itself. "Alike yet different" to live concerts - but with many advantages, not the least of which is the exploration of rare repertoire, not to mention the absence of various annoyances and distractions in concert halls! I only attended the RLPO live with any frequency; perhaps I was unlucky, but after many disappointments with smaller-scale works, I came to prefer the Home Concert Hall for anything classical including Beethoven, and the distractions were a problem! (If amusing in recollection...)

As we see from various evocations here, the "aural imagination" can compensate for much too (including the lack, or limitations , of high-end equipment itself...).

I agree totally with all of this.


And I LOVE the idea of "concrete loudspeakers"!

[jayne lee wilson]

I was very fortunate to be invited to hear his concrete horns at his home. They certainly sounded very impressive but no comparison to the real thing. I do agree with you that the musicality of a performance can transcend all the deficiencies and distractions of listening to recorded sound by whatever means. For me, I know that it has 'happened' as I just have to stop what I am doing out in the workshop and simply listen and enjoy what is on - rare though that is but perhaps the rarity makes it even more enjoyable.

Digressing slightly there was wonderful spoof article in Wireless World many years ago by a George Izzard O'Veering who sought to capture the dynamic range of the concert hall but in his living room. The article went back to first principles, passing through titanium coned loudspeakers to using the central heating radiators as heatsinks for the amplifiers. No CDs in those days and so acoustic feedback to the record deck was always a problem, solved by locating the record player down the garden in the potting shed. It was important, though, to remember to turn the volume down before lowering the stylus otherwise the windows had a tendency to blow out.

It's precisely that "comparison to the real thing" that whilst unavoidable, can lead us astray.
So often it focusses on the biggest and grandest of musical works which could only be approached in simulation by a huge speaker system in a hall-sized space.

It isn't so much a lack in hifi or reproduced sound itself as in the scale, the space. But for me this is offset by the potential greater immediacy of sound and emotional connection with smaller-scale works, from Beethoven's orchestra "downwards" into chamber ensembles. But the culture of listening to Recorded (or broadcast) Music - my musical roots - is distinct and rich in itself. "Alike yet different" to live concerts - but with many advantages, not the least of which is the exploration of rare repertoire, not to mention the absence of various annoyances and distractions in concert halls! I only attended the RLPO live with any frequency; perhaps I was unlucky, but after many disappointments with smaller-scale works, I came to prefer the Home Concert Hall for anything classical including Beethoven, and the distractions were a problem! (If amusing in recollection...)

As we see from various evocations here, the "aural imagination" can compensate for much too (including the lack, or limitations , of high-end equipment itself...).

[pureimagination]

May I remind you that many of us who do not attend the Proms, or any live concerts for that matter, rarely do this (not to attend) by choice.

My exact thought after I'd posted. Nevertheless I'm sure all who post here would encourage those that can to hear music live. We just have to ensure that it's accessible to all regardless of age, gender, ability, etc and that barriers to this are stripped gradually away.

...and blame EdgeleyRob for titling this thread 'You had to be there'!!

[doversoul1]

I would really recommend attending a live concert (at the RAH or anywhere else for that matter) to keep live performance alive. With the case of the Proms go to a live performance and then listen again later on the best audio source you have.

May I remind you that many of us who do not attend the Proms, or any live concerts for that matter, rarely do this (not to attend) by choice.

[pureimagination]

Re the RAH acoustics, a lot depends on where you stand or sit. It's a very big hall. Some parts are a long way from the orchestra, which then sounds quiet, and sitting too far to the left or right can unbalance the sound. Also, in some parts, and in some pieces, the reverberation really does mess things up, for example in fast piano concerto movements, the echo can make each piano note sound twice, thus giving a really pacy effect. High up in the circle sometimes the echos conpletely shift the apparent direction of some brass instruments. Also, up there the organ can completely drown out the orchestra.

Despite (in spite of) all these oddities, the sound in the hall can be very impressive, and generally is much better than listening to a recording or radio broadcast.

I would agree totally with Dave 2002. At Prom 70 during the Rachmaninov Piano 2 from where I sat the piano was sometimes lost under the orchestra. At the Sherlock Prom the narration (headset mic relayed to speakers at front of stage) was muddy and echoey. I tend to sit in the same area for all concerts I attend at the RAH (close enough to the performers and generally excellent sound). Certain pieces/instruments will sound different depending where you sit. Several years ago at the Mahler Symphony 2 Prom with Dudamel conducting there was a moment when the sound of the double basses whacked me in the chest that made the concert even more memorable (in a good way).
On the negative side (one last grumble about a favourite forum subject) you can hear quite clearly all the inappropriate sounds (coughs etc) from way across the auditorium.
Listening at home is certainly a varied experience (source, engineers mix, emotional involvement etc). with Prom 75 Elgar's Dream of Gerontius I felt that Magdalena Kožená voice was less sharp/forward in the mix compared to the male voices that it spoilt an otherwise excellent listen/experience.

I would really recommend attending a live concert (at the RAH or anywhere else for that matter) to keep live performance alive. With the case of the Proms go to a live performance and then listen again later on the best audio source you have.

[Anastasius]

Of course in a perfect world I would rather be there more often than not.
Some of the reviews from people in the hall however suggest that quite often the better listening experience was to be had at home.
Attending a Prom is still on my bucket list.

Now there's a thread!

"If you only went to the RAH to hear one piece of music live then what would it be and where would one sit/stand? "

[Anastasius]

..... Also, up there the organ can completely drown out the orchestra.

....

I'm glad you mentioned that as when I was at the Leifs Organ Concerto and down in the Arena front rail, I was very disappointed by the sound level from the organ compared to the sound level at performances of other works involving it that I'd heard in the past but seated elsewhere in the RAH.

[Anastasius]

.....The engineer and hifi writer John Crabbe spent his life trying to create a system that could do at least some justice to the Grande Messe...
Whether he achieved it, or felt that he had... I've no idea. ....

I was very fortunate to be invited to hear his concrete horns at his home. They certainly sounded very impressive but no comparison to the real thing. I do agree with you that the musicality of a performance can transcend all the deficiencies and distractions of listening to recorded sound by whatever means. For me, I know that it has 'happened' as I just have to stop what I am doing out in the workshop and simply listen and enjoy what is on - rare though that is but perhaps the rarity makes it even more enjoyable.

Digressing slightly there was wonderful spoof article in Wireless World many years ago by a George Izzard O'Veering who sought to capture the dynamic range of the concert hall but in his living room. The article went back to first principles, passing through titanium coned loudspeakers to using the central heating radiators as heatsinks for the amplifiers. No CDs in those days and so acoustic feedback to the record deck was always a problem, solved by locating the record player down the garden in the potting shed. It was important, though, to remember to turn the volume down before lowering the stylus otherwise the windows had a tendency to blow out.

[EdgeleyRob]

Of course in a perfect world I would rather be there more often than not.
Some of the reviews from people in the hall however suggest that quite often the better listening experience was to be had at home.
Attending a Prom is still on my bucket list.