Radio 3 being broadcast in FLAC

[Stunsworth]

Good news. The Proms will be broadcast in FLAC...

https://radiotoday.co.uk/2017/04/bbc-radio-3-ups-the-online-streaming-quality/

[HighlandDougie]

Good news. The Proms will be broadcast in FLAC...

https://radiotoday.co.uk/2017/04/bbc...aming-quality/

Well I hope that they will have sorted out the seeming fragility of the website (or maybe it's Firefox). I've been trying to access it this afternoon but all that I get is, "Gah, your tab just crashed", from F/fox. Maddening as I've really been enjoying the concerts on this week's, "Afternoon on 3", (although not Ms Derham, who has a seemingly limitless capacity to mangle up and mispronounce names).

[Dave2002]

The article says that it'll be 'at a minimum' 16/44.1. I take that to mean that they don't know what it will be. My guess is that it will be 16/48 i.e. the same as the current FLAC and HD streams.

I think some people who reported that their DACs were showing the stream as 44.1kHz were playing via a system (Windows?) which was set to a default sample rate of 44.1kHz, and thus downsampling the stream. Presumably to get the absolute best results the sample rate has to be set to "same as source" - though it appears it is 48 kHz, so if the software/hardware can't follow the source rate automatically, then an explicit setting to 48 kHz should give the best results.

I don't know whether Apple systems can do "same as source" settings automatically.

[Stunsworth]

Dave, yes if you go into the Audio/Midi program in utilities you can set the default rate to 16/48.

For music replay I use Audirvana as that automatically switches rates to match the source. However as the FLAC proms will only be available from the BBC website that won't be an option.

[Bryn]

Those here with a rather better grasp of the coding matters discussed might find the discussion here of interest. Now if some one comes up with a downloadable windows program capable of capturing the FLAC stream directly ...

[johnb]

Squeezebox users can now access the new FLAC stream - one of the third party developers has released an update to his (or her) iPlayer-Dash plugin. Visit the SlimDevices forum for details.

(Logitech discontinued the Squeezebox product range in 2012 but there has been continued development of plugins and refinement to the Logitech Media Server software by both third party developers and by a Logitech themselves. Logitech have a continued interest in the Logitech Media Server (used by the Squeezebox system) because it licences the software out to other companies to be used in their 'boxes'.)

[Dave2002]

Dave, yes if you go into the Audio/Midi program in utilities you can set the default rate to 16/48.

So I believe. I was wondering if this is actually necessary in the Apple systems - can they do automatic "use the source data rate"? Maybe that's not really feasible - unless the streams have embedded data codes, or they are in some well known container format.

Re Bryn's suggestion to look at another technical page, I wonder if the new systems are using non standard formats, so that essentially to find out what they are doing would require some form of reverse engineering. The fact that some end users seem to have made progress suggests that either the formats are standard, or are sufficiently close to standard formats that some discrepancies can be tolerated.

In some jurisdictions trying to reverse engineer such data formats could be illegal or violate T&Cs.

It did also occur to me that the streams could be encrypted, though whether it would be worth it for broadcast purposes I'm not sure. Unless every end user had a unique key, it would be difficult to ensure that keys could not be found, and then distributed amongst end users, thus rendering the encryption fairly pointless. Presumably the current streams are not encrypted.

[Stunsworth]

So I believe. I was wondering if this is actually necessary in the Apple systems - can they do automatic "use the source data rate"?

No the standard Mac software can't change rates automatically. That was one of the reason I started using Audirvana for iTunes replay.

[johnb]

I think some people who reported that their DACs were showing the stream as 44.1kHz were playing via a system (Windows?) which was set to a default sample rate of 44.1kHz, and thus downsampling the stream. Presumably to get the absolute best results the sample rate has to be set to "same as source" - though it appears it is 48 kHz, so if the software/hardware can't follow the source rate automatically, then an explicit setting to 48 kHz should give the best results.

I agree that it is probable that the sample rate experienced by people connecting their Windows computer to a DAC is influenced by the Windows settings. Not quite the same thing but the sample rate seen by TotalRecorder is that set in the Windows settings, not the actual sample rate of the stream. So to avoid Windows automatically resampling, the Windows setting should be set to the same sample rate as the original data. In Windows 7 this can be set by:

Start/Control Panel/Sound
Select the listening device and click on Properties
Click on the Advanced tab and set the default format (e.g. "2 channel, 16 bit, 48000Hz")

Perhaps it's due to my ignorance but I find it difficult to tell what the actual FLAC sample rate is when playing the "taster" stream through my computer. However I have just started using the updated iPlayer plugin for Squeezebox ("BBCiPlayer - DASH R3 Flac test"). This enables me to play the R3 FLAC through my audio system and also to see the true sample rate, which is 48kHz. (Or at least it is at the moment!)

[Dave2002]

A few people might find this forum of interest - https://www.computeraudiophile.com/f...lac-streaming/

[Dave2002]

Squeezebox users can now access the new FLAC stream - one of the third party developers has released an update to his (or her) iPlayer-Dash plugin. Visit the SlimDevices forum for details.

(Logitech discontinued the Squeezebox product range in 2012 but there has been continued development of plugins and refinement to the Logitech Media Server software by both third party developers and by a Logitech themselves. Logitech have a continued interest in the Logitech Media Server (used by the Squeezebox system) because it licences the software out to other companies to be used in their 'boxes'.)

Does this require a computer in the link to do transcoding or for some other interface purpose, or can the Squeezebox pick up the FLAC stream directly? It's a while since I played with mine. I seem to have gone back to playing CDs quite a lot, and using a direct digital connection from my MBP via a DAC rather than using the Squeezebox for downloads and streaming.

If I could get it working again without too many hours of hassle I might give it a whirl - particularly if I could get the BBC FLAC stream going.

[johnb]

Dave, to play the Radio 3 FLAC through, say, a Squeezebox Touch you need to be running the Logitech Media Server (LMS) software on a computer, a server (which is what I do) or a reasonably powered NAS. This is because it depends on a LMS plugin.

To set it up, firstly I would recommend you install the current version of LMS 7.9 on your computer:

http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/index.php?ver=7.9

All this will be very familiar you to (and is much simpler to do that it seems) but once LMS is running and the Squeezebox Touch is connected, etc, you have to install the relevant plugin.

The third party developer (bpa) who has previously updated the iPlayer plugin to operate with DASH, has quickly brought out a "test" plugin for Radio 3 FLAC. No doubt he will update his "normal" plugin once things settle down.

Open LMS in your browser (in Windows 7 there is a LMS icon on the taskbar, which you right click and select "Open Web Control")
Click on "Settings" on the bottom right.
Click on the Plugins tab.
If Triode's third party iPlayer plugin is enabled: disable it and click on "Apply" (you might then have to restart LMS).

"bpa" is currently looking after the iPlayer plugin so you need to add his repositories to the bottom of the Plugins tab:

The repository for the version modded for FLAC:

http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/bpaplugins/V154testrelease-repo.xml

His normal repository:

http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/bpaplugins/repo-short.xml

Click on "Apply" and Restart LMS

The two new bpa repositories with their plugins will then show at the bottom of the Settings/Plugins page

Enable the "BBC iPlayer - DASH R3 Flac test" plugin, click on "Apply" and restart LMS

Find the now enabled "BBC iPlayer - DASH R3 Flac test" plugin on the Settings/Plugins page and click on "Settings" (to the right):

Live Stream Preference: make sure this is set to "DashFlac > DASH"
The plugin will first attempt to play DASH FLAC and fall back to DASH AAC 320kbps if FLAC isn't available (e.g. for other channels and for Listen Again)
Seconds to delay start live stream: people have found that setting this to 2mins or 3mins helps with buffering dropouts.

That's it (with luck).

There will be two entries for Radio 3 on the iPlayer Live menu - Radio 3 (using 320kbps AAC) and R3 Flac.

Further information is towards the final pages of this very, very long thread on the SlimDevices forum:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?104672-BBCiPlayer-with-DASH-support-test-version

[Bryn]

Another outing for the McCreesh revised English text Creation on TtN tonight. Well worth catching via the FLAC stream, I reckon.

[Dave2002]

johnb

re msg 57 - Thanks a lot for this. I'll probably find time to do that tomorrow - shouldn't take too long if things actually work - but there are no guarantees that it'll work straight off. It'd be good to get that working, if I can.

[Dave2002]

Another outing for the McCreesh revised English text Creation on TtN tonight. Well worth catching via the FLAC stream, I reckon.

Thanks for the heads up. Did you follow any of the leads suggested in msg 55? nudge, nudge! Some people may have found ways to do things of possible interest to you.