When is a flute a recorder?

[Dave2002]

I was really pleased to hear this Vivaldi piece on In Tune tonight:

Recorder Concerto in G major, RV 443 - i. Allegro
Performer: Lucie Horsch. Ensemble: Amsterdam Vivaldi Players.

However, it was back announced as a flute concerto.
It is also listed as a flute concerto on the Radio 3 schedule page:

Flute Concerto in G major, RV 443 - i. Allegro

Performer: Lucie Horsch. Ensemble: Amsterdam Vivaldi Players.

Beautiful playing, but surely anybody with ears could tell what kind of instrument it was.
Perhaps the announcer wasn't listening!

Here is a link showing the player - http://www.deccaclassics.com/gb/artist/horsch/

[Bryn]

Well, a recorder (Blockflöte) is always a flute, a fipple flute. However, a flute is by no means always a recorder, not even if it is a fipple flute. I might be a penny whistle (also a flute). However, let's face it, when most people say "flute" without further description, they usually mean a transverse flute.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Further intrigue - in the RV catalogue, RV 443 is listed as a Flautino (Sopranino Recorder/Piccolo) Concerto in C major.

I think (not entirely sure about this) that Vivaldi never used the word "recorder", and all his "Recorder Concertos" are called "Flute Concertos" on the title pages, which presumably explains the listing and announcement.

[Richard Barrett]

In the early 18th century, the recorder was still the default instrument indicated by "flauto" and its cognates. Transverse flutes, which were relatively uncommon at the start of the century, had to be specified as such. The titlepage of Vivaldi's op.10, for example, reads "VI Concerti per flauto traverso..." They were in fact mostly arrangements of earlier pieces whose solo part was for recorder, and those earlier versions are also often played and recorded. RV443 is indeed for "flautino" or sopranino recorder, for which HUP players might substitute a piccolo (which was pretty much unknown at the time the piece was written, making its first ahem recorded appearance in the 1730s in Paris opera orchestras).

[doversoul1]

RV 443 is, I think, one of the best known show pieces for the recorder but it’s not so unusual to see it called flute concerto on place like youtube for example. It must be the name; flautino. Not that that should give any excuse to Radio 3, both the presenter and the person who wrote the playlist.

Ferneyhoughgeliebte

Vivaldi never used the word "recorder",

Well, I don’t think Vivaldi spoke English

Some amazing things these simple wooden pipes can do.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/advsearch.php?composer=&work=&performer=Amsterdam+Loeki+Stardust+Quartet&medium=all&label=&cat=

[ostuni]

There's been some rather curious marketing by Decca of this new Lucie Horsch album, which all adds to the confusion... As others have pointed out, Vivaldi wrote RV443 for flautino (=sopranino recorder, in F, an octave above the treble recorder). Decca's listing (post #1) gives 'Flautino Concerto in C major, Arr. in G major for Recorder' - and Lucie H plays it, down a 4th, on descant recorder. Meanwhile, she plays a couple of the op. 10 concertos on the same album, both 'Arr. for Recorder', when (as Richard B has already pointed out) Vivaldi's original versions of both these pieces were indeed originally written for recorder.

And it wasn't just in Italy that flauto meant recorder. We were talking about the Brandenburg concertos yesterday (on the anti-HIPP Messiah thread): Bach's autograph lists the recorder solo in no.2 as fiauto, and the flute solo in 5 as Traversiere.

[Dave2002]

I should still have somewhere my LP with Bernard Krainis, playing what I think is that concerto on a sopranino in C major - https://www.discogs.com/Vivaldi-Tele...elease/3323513

[Richard Barrett]

Decca's listing (post #1) gives 'Flautino Concerto in C major, Arr. in G major for Recorder' - and Lucie H plays it, down a 4th, on descant recorder. Meanwhile, she plays a couple of the op. 10 concertos on the same album, both 'Arr. for Recorder', when (as Richard B has already pointed out) Vivaldi's original versions of both these pieces were indeed originally written for recorder.

What a mess. Pardon me for possibly missing somthing important, but what's wrong with music that Vivaldi actually wrote???

[Dave2002]

What a mess. Pardon me for possibly missing somthing important, but what's wrong with music that Vivaldi actually wrote???

Re the previous msg - msg 6 - isn't it the case that these are arrangements, being transposed from one recorder to one in a different key/pitch, with a corresponding transposition of the orchestral parts? I've only just picked up on that - so maybe I'm wrong, but that's what seems plausible to me.

I thought the player sounded superb, but if she's that good, why couldn't she, and also the orchestra play the pieces at roughly the pitch the composer wrote them in - give or take a few Hz to allow for different tunings?

[oddoneout]

Re the previous msg - msg 6 - isn't it the case that these are arrangements, being transposed from one recorder to one in a different key/pitch, with a corresponding transposition of the orchestral parts? I've only just picked up on that - so maybe I'm wrong, but that's what seems plausible to me.

I thought the player sounded superb, but if she's that good, why couldn't she, and also the orchestra play the pieces at roughly the pitch the composer wrote them in - give or take a few Hz to allow for different tunings?

The recorders are in different keys - if the flautino equivalent is sopranino it will be in F - but there is also the sound and the ease of playing to be considered. Trying to get the upper range of the sopranino on a descant would be a challenge(I don't know even how possible it is, if you want to get stratospheric with a recorder in C you'd be better off with the Garklein?) and I suspect would not make for happy listening. I don't know, but I wonder if the double alteration was to enable both range and sound to be acceptable for the descant and closer to the original than simply going down to treble?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The recorders are in different keys - if the flautino equivalent is sopranino it will be in F - but there is also the sound and the ease of playing to be considered. Trying to get the upper range of the sopranino on a descant would be a challenge(I don't know even how possible it is, if you want to get stratospheric with a recorder in C you'd be better off with the Garklein?) and I suspect would not make for happy listening. I don't know, but I wonder if the double alteration was to enable both range and sound to be acceptable for the descant and closer to the original than simply going down to treble?

But is there a known reason why Ms Horsch didn't simply use a sopranino?

[Dave2002]

There are recordings of the concertos for flautino played on that instrument (sopranino), and I have even seen and heard the one in C played live - pretty well. It can be done, so I don't quite understand why it wasn't, as the soloist seems to have the technique/ability to play it.

[Richard Barrett]

It can be done

Indeed it's been recorded dozens of times, being probably one of AV's more frequently recorded wind concertos. I also don't get the idea of "arranging" the op.10 concertos for recorder when their original versions were for recorder. (If that's what was done.) All of this nonsense would put off the serious Vivaldi enthusiast however good the playing. But of course that isn't who the disc is marketed at.

[Hornspieler]

Well, a recorder (Blockflöte) is always a flute, a fipple flute. However, a flute is by no means always a recorder, not even if it is a fipple flute. I might be a penny whistle (also a flute). However, let's face it, when most people say "flute" without further description, they usually mean a transverse flute.

So what about the Ocarina?

Is that a flute? It certainly has a fipple, but it can neither be described as transverse or recorder shaped.
It has finger holes, but no keys.

Looks like the shell of some sea creature, but you can play tunes on it. I used to have one, (until my brother trod on it one day).

Has anyone else ever posessed or even seen one?

http://www.ocarina.co.uk/

HS

[doversoul1]

So what about the Ocarina?

HS

I suppose the difference is that the/an ocarina isn't a tube. According to Wiki, it is a type of vessel flute which is a type of flute with an enclosed rather than cylindrical body