How to fix Mahler's second

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    How to fix Mahler's second

    Here is a suggestion of a way to improve Mahler's Second Symphony, which as published is something of a dog's breakfast.

    It has five movements (at least one too many for a symphony). So as a first step, the third (some sort of local pop-song, and very vulgar in tone) could be removed. The fourth should be removed as well, because it is a short and characterless song and entirely out of place in any symphony.

    The question then remains of what to do with the grotesque current fifth movement (which goes on for a full thirty-six minutes!). The best approach is to cut it short just before the point (bar 418) where the off-stage brass instruments start up in earnest - what a silly and tastless gimmick that of the "distant horns" is!

    There is no need for the chorus or solo voices either; in the current version the affair ceases to be a symphony just at the point where the chorus enters; after that it is mere rigmarole. So we are then left with a three movement work: the existing first, the existing second, and the best bits from the existing fifth. Like that it will be a much more satisfying, bearable, and manageable concert-hall experience will it not. We wonder whether some one has already done it like that.

    And after writing the above, we just now consulted the critic Geoffrey Sharp, a most reliable judge, and we find he expressed almost exactly the same thought as we! "The solo and choral voices," says he, writing of this same work, "diffuse the clear outline and disrupt the homogeneity that a work must have in order to merit the term 'symphonic.'"

    How encouraging it is to read his authoritative remarks: it shows that in our own suggestions we are definitely on the right track.
    Last edited by Sydney Grew; 29-11-10, 11:56.

    #2
    I love posts that start like this - I think it's known as setting the cat among the pigeons!

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      #3
      Heavens above!

      This reminds me of old times, before the Great Turmoil of 2007!

      Good to see Sydney's inimitable style again.

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        #4
        Originally posted by johnb View Post
        the Great Turmoil of 2007!
        before my time - do tell!!

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          #5
          Sorted, Sydney.

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            #6
            Well, at least it is an odds-on certainty that "we" may all be thankful that no one will actually have the sheer temerity and tastelessness to undertake such a task for which one might be forgiven for assuming that the tools require to do so would be the musical equivalent of weapons of mass destruction. Whilst it may be argued that not all the versions of the same composer's final symphony are anything like of the order of the final Cooke version, none of the other perpetrators has done anything so heinous as the "editing" that is being suggested here which would, if accomplished, surely constitute the very opposite of a resurrection.

            On the basis of the quotation from him, G#'s reliability as a judge of anything is open to question and will presumably remain so at least until some credible justification for it is provided; in the meantime, the absence of such justification parallels the lack of any evidence or reasoning to support his (and, by implication, your) contentions as to the validity or otherwise of vocal writing within a symphony, about which I think that most of us would feel more inclined to accept the evidence of Heer Beethoven or indeed Signor Busoni in preference to that of a mere (foot?)note.

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              #7
              the...current fifth movement (which goes on for a full thirty-six minutes!)
              And how great those thirty-six minutes are. Along with the remaining fifty or so. It does not need to be 'fixed' at all. Vaughan Williams said the following about his Fourth Symphony:

              "I don't know whether I like it, but it's what I meant."
              Personally, I think that could be applied to any single work ever created.

              If this thread is a joke, I apologise for over-reacting. If it's serious, then I feel sorry that you don't appreciate one of the great musical utterances of modern history.

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                #8
                I know a lot of people find Mahler's music interdeterrminabl or such like. If they do, then that is there business and should leave the people who love his music, as I do, to get on with it(so to speak). I don't see any pointt in haviung discussions like this. Only upsets people.
                Last edited by BBMmk2; 29-11-10, 13:39.
                Don’t cry for me
                I go where music was born

                J S Bach 1685-1750

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                  #9
                  Agree with BBM (I think) but my Klingon is a little rusty

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
                    I don't see any point in having discussions like this. Only upsets people.
                    Ah, but bbm, I think that might just be the intended purpose.

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                      #11
                      You should hear Sid's verdict on Shostacoughwitch....

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
                        I don't see any pointt in haviung discussions like this. Only upsets people.
                        I would have replied "Wait until he gets on to Shostakovich!" but that would be tempting providence, so I wont.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by mahlerei View Post
                          you should hear sid's verdict on shostacoughwitch....
                          snap !

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                            #14
                            I think we should inject some bars of general pause in 3/4 time. Thus giving the piece a Viennese flavour. (Stolen from Hoffnung).

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                              #15
                              all joking apart, is there actually more than one version of Mahler 2 'kicking about' (so to speak)?

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