'Incompetent' Conductors

[Guest]

I was told once that a conductor will have a hard time with an orchestra unless he/she can convince them that they have earned the right to be on the podium, ie that they are a better musician than those serving in the galley.

A couple of conductors, over the years, have been 'named and shamed' by their players as being less than they should be - Guisseppe Sinopoli was one (though I've never understood this - I've been impressed by him both in concert and on record) and Simone Young (who has single-handedly ruined every opera performance I've seen her preside over).

Any thoughts on this?

[Mahlerei]

Post deleted, not in deference to the original poster but because the change of thread title renders it meaningless.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Is this a new internet site for competent conductors?

[Richard Tarleton]

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?2797-Can-we-edit-thread-titles&p=71232#post71232

[Mandryka]

I could say I was using a very small keyboard and am more susceptible to typos than ordinarily.

As I don't seem to be able to edit the title, could someone 'with powers' chang it for me, please?

And then, can we talk about 'INcompetent' conductors?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

You only had to ask.

[Mahlerei]

I've said my bit. These negative threads are a bore (to me, at least).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

These negative threads are a bore (to me, at least).

They are. Challenging a poor performance is quite different from attacking an individual musician's raison d'etre.

[Mandryka]

Cheers! Didn't realise the oversight until I looked back in here.

Mahleriei....if you find these 'negative' threads a bore, why do you take the trouble to contribute to them, however briefly and with such a desire to offend? I certainly can't be bothered to contribute to threads that don't interest me.

Still, if it makes you happy in your own small way....

[rauschwerk]

Colin Davis is often heard to remark that orchestras will be happy to play for someone if it's clear that he or she is there to serve the music and not for an ego trip. Also (with reference to opera) that players in a pit cannot hear very much from, or see anything on the stage and they have to put their trust in the conductor who, therefore, absolutely must know what's going on. Apart from that the conductor must be well prepared, be able to give clear directions to the band, and not talk too much in rehearsal.

Here's a good anecdote from Alan Civil:-

"It's a bit of a cheek to present oneself to a good professional orchestra as a 'maestro'. I remember even Kertesz - a very nice man and developing into a fine conductor when he died - even Kertesz doing Bruckner 4 with the LSO, a work he'd done once before with a semi-professional band. He told the orchestra that English orchestras didn't understand Bruckner, and didn't know how to play it. 'I know it's very boring for string players with this tremolo,' he said, 'but when you get to know, you'll understand it. Bear with me, gentlemen, and I'll teach you.' Second time he'd done it!" (Orchestra, ed. Previn 1979)

[Mahlerei]

Mandryka

I think you're way ahead of me in the offensive stakes

[Norfolk Born]

I certainly shan't be contributing to this one - whoops - damn!

[Mandryka]

Mandryka

I think you're way ahead of me in the offensive stakes

I think not. Trying to score cheap laughs off typos is the lowest form of wit, you know.

Onto higher matters.....

The Colin Davis point raised by rauschwerk is a good one - though I've heard players talk in patronising terms even about conductors they generally like. A good friend of mine remembers a famous couple of concerts given by the Berlin Philharmonic at Coventry Cathedral in the early 70s.....where the orchestra played 'Karajan's Bruckner 8' and 'Furtwangler's Schumann 4' Maybe just getting an orchestra to play what you want it to play rather than 'its' version of something is an achievement in itself?

[Roslynmuse]

Very few if any truly incompetent conductors will make it onto the professional orchestral scene. If, by some fluke, a conducting prize-winner gets a gig and is found wanting, they will quickly be dropped from the circuit. OK, some choral specialists occasionally find themselves in front of an orchestra, but the players will generally help them through if the very different needs of an orchestra are not being fully met.

There are plenty of conductors out there, however, whose stick/hand technique takes some getting used to. Perhaps that's incompetence of a sort, but generally the musical intentions start to make themselves clear in rehearsal. (These tend to be disaster areas when accompanying concertos.) And a small number whose personalities rub the players up the wrong way - not incompetents, but they simply make the musicians grit their teeth and fail to get the best out of them.

[StephenO]

Not too keen on negative threads either but don't you think this one just cries out for the return of Cellini?!