Bath Festival concert 19/5/21 - Morning??

[LeMartinPecheur]

How lovely to hear live music again with a real audience clapping

Not quite so lovely to hear the title of Strauss's Morgen being translated as 'Morning' instead of 'Tomorrow' 'In the Morning' would have done nicely too, particularly in the song's wedding context.

[Petrushka]

How lovely to hear live music again with a real audience clapping

Not quite so lovely to hear the title of Strauss's Morgen being translated as 'Morning' instead of 'Tomorrow' 'In the Morning' would have done nicely too, particularly in the song's wedding context.

My German is good enough for Wagner, Strauss waltzes, place names etc but how is one to infer from the title alone, rather than the context of the text, that Morgen, in this case, refers to 'tomorrow' and not 'morning'? A Google search indicates that either are correct but is it to do with one use of the word being an adverb and the other an adjective?

This is one of those peculiarities in German that has puzzled me for some time. We have Strauss's waltz 'Morgenblätter' (Morning Papers) but morning itself is usually rendered as 'vormittag'.

If gurnemanz happens to pass this way perhaps he can clarify.

[LMcD]

My German is good enough for Wagner, Strauss waltzes, place names etc but how is one to infer from the title alone, rather than the context of the text, that Morgen, in this case, refers to 'tomorrow' and not 'morning'? A Google search indicates that either are correct but is it to do with one use of the word being an adverb and the other an adjective?

This is one of those peculiarities in German that has puzzled me for some time. We have Strauss's waltz 'Morgenblätter' (Morning Papers) but morning itself is usually rendered as 'vormittag'.

If gurnemanz happens to pass this way perhaps he can clarify.

... and a 'Guten Vormittag' to all Forum members!

[Serial_Apologist]

... and a 'Guten Vormittag' to all Forum members!

Too late!!!

[Petrushka]

And then we have Suppe's overture Ein Morgen, ein Mittag und ein Abend in Wien, usually translated as Morning, Noon and Night in Vienna, though that also seems to be incorrect as abend is evening while nacht is night!

[LeMartinPecheur]

My German is good enough for Wagner, Strauss waltzes, place names etc but how is one to infer from the title alone, rather than the context of the text, that Morgen, in this case, refers to 'tomorrow' and not 'morning'? A Google search indicates that either are correct but is it to do with one use of the word being an adverb and the other an adjective?

This is one of those peculiarities in German that has puzzled me for some time. We have Strauss's waltz 'Morgenblätter' (Morning Papers) but morning itself is usually rendered as 'vormittag'.

If gurnemanz happens to pass this way perhaps he can clarify.

The text is
Und morgen wird die Sonne wieder scheinen
Und auf dem Wege, den ich gehen werde,
Wird uns, die Glücklichen, sie wieder einen
Inmitten dieser sonnenatmenden Erde ...

Und zu dem Strand, dem weiten, wogenblauen,
Werden wir still und langsam niedersteigen,
Stumm werden wir uns in die Augen schauen,
Und auf uns sinkt des Glückes stummes Schweigen ...

And tomorrow the sun will shine again
And on the path that I shall take,
It will unite us, happy ones, again,
Amid this same sun-breathing earth ...

And to the shore, broad, blue-waved,
We shall quietly and slowly descend,
Speechless we shall gaze into each other’s eyes,
And the speechless silence of bliss shall fall on us ... (Trans Richard Stokes)



The absence of the capital M for a German noun makes it doubly clear that the meaning is 'tomorrow', adverb. Any decent translation of the poem will be entitled Tomorrow. I do think that this could have been easily established by the presenter or her script-writer!

[Bryn]

The text is
Und morgen wird die Sonne wieder scheinen
Und auf dem Wege, den ich gehen werde,
Wird uns, die Glücklichen, sie wieder einen
Inmitten dieser sonnenatmenden Erde ...

Und zu dem Strand, dem weiten, wogenblauen,
Werden wir still und langsam niedersteigen,
Stumm werden wir uns in die Augen schauen,
Und auf uns sinkt des Glückes stummes Schweigen ...

And tomorrow the sun will shine again
And on the path that I shall take,
It will unite us, happy ones, again,
Amid this same sun-breathing earth ...

And to the shore, broad, blue-waved,
We shall quietly and slowly descend,
Speechless we shall gaze into each other’s eyes,
And the speechless silence of bliss shall fall on us ... (Trans Richard Stokes)



The absence of the capital M for a German noun makes it doubly clear that the meaning is 'tomorrow', adverb. Any decent translation of the poem will be entitled Tomorrow. I do think that this could have been easily established by the presenter or her script-writer!

As has been pointed out here many, many times, Radio 3 presenters prepare their own scripts. Some do a thorough job, others appear to rely on wiki or guesswork.

[Serial_Apologist]

As has been pointed out here many, many times, Radio 3 presenters prepare their own scripts. Some do a thorough job, others appear to rely on wiki or guesswork.

Veni, vidi, Wiki.

(Apologies if this has already been thought up)

[Bryn]

Veni, vidi, Wiki.

(Apologies if this has already been thought up)

[vinteuil]

Veni, vidi, Wiki.

(Apologies if this has already been thought up)

... a most excellent update.




To add to the classic Sellar & Yeatman -

"Julius Cæsar was therefore compelled to invade Britain again the following year (54 B.C., not 56, owing to the peculiar Roman method of counting), and having defeated the Ancient Britons by unfair means, such as battering-rams, tortoises, hippocausts, centipedes, axes and bundles, set the memorable Latin sentence, “Veni, Vidi, Vici,” which the Romans, who were all very well educated, construed correctly.

The Britons, however, who of course still used the old pronunciation, understanding him to have called them “Weeny, Weedy and Weaky,” lost heart and gave up the struggle, thinking that he had already divided them All into Three Parts."

.

[Serial_Apologist]

... a most excellent update.




To add to the classic Sellar & Yeatman -

"Julius Cæsar was therefore compelled to invade Britain again the following year (54 B.C., not 56, owing to the peculiar Roman method of counting), and having defeated the Ancient Britons by unfair means, such as battering-rams, tortoises, hippocausts, centipedes, axes and bundles, set the memorable Latin sentence, “Veni, Vidi, Vici,” which the Romans, who were all very well educated, construed correctly.

The Britons, however, who of course still used the old pronunciation, understanding him to have called them “Weeny, Weedy and Weaky,” lost heart and gave up the struggle, thinking that he had already divided them All into Three Parts."

.

[gurnemanz]

My German is good enough for Wagner, Strauss waltzes, place names etc but how is one to infer from the title alone, rather than the context of the text, that Morgen, in this case, refers to 'tomorrow' and not 'morning'? A Google search indicates that either are correct but is it to do with one use of the word being an adverb and the other an adjective?

This is one of those peculiarities in German that has puzzled me for some time. We have Strauss's waltz 'Morgenblätter' (Morning Papers) but morning itself is usually rendered as 'vormittag'.

If gurnemanz happens to pass this way perhaps he can clarify.

Sorry for late response. As pointed out, morgen (small m) is an adverb meaning tomorrow. This is obviously the sense of the Strauss song. Der Morgen is a noun meaning morning. I remembered a German hit song of the same name from my youth - an early appearance of Bert Kaempfert - (covered in English by various people including Vera Lynn).

Some more detail, in case any is interested. "Vormittag" is an alternative for morning - both options in common use. In the morning could equally well be: Am Morgen or Am Vormittag. 'Yesterday morning' can be either gestern Morgen or gestern Vormittag'. This morning is heute Morgen or heute Vormittag. However, Vormittag is obviously needed for saying 'tomorrow morning'. 'morgen morgen' would be silly and you have to use 'morgen Vormittag'. There is even another possibility. You often hear früh - early - used in those combinations, eg "morgen früh". They also have a useful adverb, "morgens", "of a morning", ie every morning as in the Schumann song from the Op 24 cycle "Morgens steh' ich auf und frage".

You cannot say "Guten Vormittag" for good morning. Only "Guten Morgen" is permissible, unless in Bavaria, where piety reigns supreme, when you would say "Grüß Gott! Likewise, "Guten Nachmittag" is also never heard. In the afternoon you can only say "Guten Tag".

'Nacht', unlike "night" in English (tonight = this evening, Last Night of the Proms - those would be Abend) is the time when most people are asleep, so Gute Nacht usually means Have a good sleep. Foreigners in Germany sometimes get confused because they have two words for Saturday - the more common Samstag, but also often heard Sonnabend (eve of Sunday}.

Note for philologists and lovers of German nit-picking: When I learnt German at school 'this morning' was spelt (spelled?) 'heute morgen' - small m. A few years ago the spelling reform committee decreed that in that combination it was a noun and should have a capital M, (link) as I obediently spelt it above. I know a few Germans of the older generation who on principle refuse to embrace the new spelling. (German MS Word spell checker gives such people the option of ignoring the spelling reform).

[Petrushka]

Sorry for late response. As pointed out, morgen (small m) is an adverb meaning tomorrow. This is obviously the sense of the Strauss song. Der Morgen is a noun meaning morning. I remembered a German hit song of the same name from my youth - an early appearance of Bert Kaempfert - (covered in English by various people including Vera Lynn).

Some more detail, in case any is interested. "Vormittag" is an alternative for morning - both options in common use. In the morning could equally well be: Am Morgen or Am Vormittag. 'Yesterday morning' can be either gestern Morgen or gestern Vormittag'. This morning is heute Morgen or heute Vormittag. However, Vormittag is obviously needed for saying 'tomorrow morning'. 'morgen morgen' would be silly and you have to use 'morgen Vormittag'. There is even another possibility. You often hear früh - early - used in those combinations, eg "morgen früh". They also have a useful adverb, "morgens", "of a morning", ie every morning as in the Schumann song from the Op 24 cycle "Morgens steh' ich auf und frage".

You cannot say "Guten Vormittag" for good morning. Only "Guten Morgen" is permissible, unless in Bavaria, where piety reigns supreme, when you would say "Grüß Gott! Likewise, "Guten Nachmittag" is also never heard. In the afternoon you can only say "Guten Tag".

'Nacht', unlike "night" in English (tonight = this evening, Last Night of the Proms - those would be Abend) is the time when most people are asleep, so Gute Nacht usually means Have a good sleep. Foreigners in Germany sometimes get confused because they have two words for Saturday - the more common Samstag, but also often heard Sonnabend (eve of Sunday}.

Note for philologists and lovers of German nit-picking: When I learnt German at school 'this morning' was spelt (spelled?) 'heute morgen' - small m. A few years ago the spelling reform committee decreed that in that combination it was a noun and should have a capital M, (link) as I obediently spelt it above. I know a few Germans of the older generation who on principle refuse to embrace the new spelling. (German MS Word spell checker gives such people the option of ignoring the spelling reform).

Wonderful reply, thanks, but induces despair for those trying to get to grips with another language!