The Digital Concert Hall

[Gordon]

... Oh, and don't forget that the 1411kbps of Red Book CD involves around 50% data redundancy....

How come "50% redundancy" when the 1411kbps stream is directly derived from sampled audio with no "compression" involved? What redundancy? What is the original source format that has an equivalent bit rate higher than 1411? Or are you saying that the 1411 is itself 50% redundant ie half of it is un-necesary?

Envelopes, New York vs Berlin

I was able to listen to the Berlin Philharmonic and Rossini's Armida (live on Radio 3 HD)on the same 2nd string system attached to my computer. Assuming for the moment that that broadcast was 320 kbits,there was a shocking difference. It was so poor that I could hardly believe it.Had they really strung a couple of microphones from the ceiling? orchestra audibly in the pit, chorus singing from behind a curtain and stage creaking and sword rattles interrupting arias.Someone please disabuse me, because I have no inherent prejudice against US attention to sound/mix technology. I will not go on to suggest reasons for this apparent neglect, in case I am mistaken.

[Bryn]

BBC Radio 3 HD Sound Live stream - 320kbps aac-lc 2 channel stereo (though it does seem a tad unreliable, terminating without warning from time to time, but very fine indeed when it is working. Oh, and don't forget that the 1411kbps of Red Book CD involves around 50% data redundancy. It makes more sense to compare with a .FLAC or .APE lossless file derived from it, that would be somewhere between 550kbps and about 700kbps depending on the audio data being compressed.

kbits,envelopes and perceptual psychology

I was redirected to your thread when I enthused over my new ( if somewhat belated) discovery of the DCH earlier this week,and saw how far behind the beeb had fallen.
Radio 3....190/160 kbits,Amazon MP3 258 kbits,DCH 320kbits,CD 1411kbits.

Why does the Berlin Philharmonic sound so wonderful? well its probably the envelope or "mix" the engineers have decided to send,via the numbers.Probably a carefully structured balance of frequency bands and reverb that sounds good,rather than an old fashioned "flat" hi-fi decibel response curve.People may remember how the early CD's seemed to loose the warm middle and bottom of hifi vinyl ( my children's generation came to understand this, and collect vinyl again,though of different music!).Although the visuals no doubt help,if you look at the shape of the volume,and the placing of the wood reflective surfaces,they are likely too, to enhance a certain bright sound,perhaps together with definite,planned, microphone sensitivities.

Lastly to the issue of the psychology of perception (not Freud) and the measurement of hearing loss.It will come as both a surprise and a disappointment to know that we start going deaf at 21-ish as a result of normal ageing processes,and loose our 22-24 KHZ sensitivity first. This is progressive and normal, though it can be speeded up by a number of insults. So its best to invest in your best Hifi as early as possible!

My guess is that the very careful engineers have probably designed an envelope to mirror, then reverse,the average hearing loss of the older,richer population,who have the money to buy DCH access.

Who cares,anyway,as this sad old git has been wafted back to the late sixties and his regular attendance of the Royal Festival Hall,when that was a Mecca.Perhaps the beeb cannot afford to do the proms this way (could such equipment be portable?),or Covent Garden isn't interested in a joint project. I am sure it is the future though.

[johnb]

It seems that my computer is too slow to be able to watch and listen to either the DCH or Medici concerts. Well, it is a six year old laptop and even then it was a business orientated model (a Thinkpad R51) rather than one with a trendy graphics board. Pity - I don't really feel like buying something else yet as it functions perfectly and, in all other ways, fully meets my requirements.

I suppose I could always capture the concerts with Replay Media Catcher, do the conversion to DVD and use that.

Incidentally, as a test, I did that with a string quartet on Medici but found the movements of the players looked wrong - jerky and unnatural. Presumably this is because the '264' video format (of Medici) has a much lower frame rate than DVD and the conversion to DVD requires some of the '264' frames to be duplicated over a couple of DVD frames.

Oh well!

[Il Grande Inquisitor]

I recently invested in a Sony Blu-ray player and when I connected it to my router was delighted to find I had access to the Berlin Philharmonic's Digital Concert Hall.

I finally had a day off on Sunday when I could sign up for a 24 hour pass. What a great service! I picked out some very good performances to watch, including the Mahler 2 much discussed elsewhere. What I hadn't realised is that the symphony followed, without a break, Schoenberg's A Survivor from Warsaw, which worked very well. Although the first movement of Mahler 2 is, perhaps, too beautiful, the finale is most impressive.

I also watched concerts conducted by Neeme Järvi and Valery Gergiev, including a cracking Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No .1 from Arkadi Volodos, as well as Semyon Bychkov's thrilling account of An Alpine Symphony.

It's a very easy site to navigate, the picture quality is superb, as is the sound. I shall be revisiting soon.

Anyone else have problems tonight or is this one down to my own computer? There seemed nothing wrong with my broadband connection and the test on the BPO website proclaimed it to be excellent.

FWIW, I have the same problem on the Medici.tv web site, but when using the Appian Relay Media Catcher the download completes even if the program hangs up. Then you can watch it at your leisure. On my computer it takes about 1 minute per 4 minutes of play to download a program, so a 1 hour program takes about 15 minutes.

I'm afarid I can't answer the technical questions, Petrushka (and I seem to be lucky in that the DCH works perfectly for me), but on the wider point I have long felt that when it comes to our computers we are expected to live with a level of malfunction and annoyance that we would never tolerate in any other household goods.

Apologists for the industry say, "It's not [e.g.] Microsoft's fault if third-party programs are put on a Windows computer and don't work properly" -- to which my reply would be that instead of rushing their operating systems out to get a start on the competition, they should take time to make sure that programs cannot not work with them. Then and only then should we be asked to pay (extortionately) for Windows, etc.

[Petrushka]

I tried to watch the live concert again tonight (BPO/Rattle including Schubert 9) but yet again had persistent connection problems until it went altogether about 20 minutes into the Haydn 99. I then went back into the archive to watch the Mahler 3 that went awry last week but that packed in as well!

Anyone else have problems tonight or is this one down to my own computer? There seemed nothing wrong with my broadband connection and the test on the BPO website proclaimed it to be excellent.

I'm afraid that this is one of the major problems with computers; that a product and services are on the market that are not fit for purpose.

Medici vs. BPO

It's quite easy Petrushka when you get use to it. It took me about three days.

You're right about that, Threni. It's quite confusing at first, but after a couple of days I became familiar enough with it to confidently subscribe for a year, and what a treasure trove it is! Not least because all nine of Mahler's symphonies, by the Orchestre de Paris conducted by Christoph Essenbach, are available there. Actually 2 through 9 are available free and the 1st is available for subscribers. When high definition is selected you get a 720 x 480 picture with 1200 kbps. I would like a larger picture, but the sound is more than adequate for these old ears. Actually, the picture still looks pretty good stretched out to 1920 x 1200 on my 24" LaCie screen. I actually think it's a better deal than the BPO, being considerably less expensive and offering a large variety, including operas. Thanks for the tip!

It looks as though Applian Replay Media Catcher will do it. Certainly works on the free-play video of Rattle and the youth orchestra

Thanks for mentioning that device, Uncle Monty. I tried it and after determining that it would work on Medici I bought it. Actually I bought the suite, since it was only $40 US more than the Media Catcher alone. I think I'll use a couple of the other programs, including the DVD burner. One feature I like about the Media Catcher is that it can convert the Flash files to MPEG 2 in either PAL or NTSC format for burning to a DVD. In the process it reduces the bitrate from 1200 to 448 kbps, but I can live with that!

Thanks also to French Frank and others for starting this forum. I think I'm going to like it here.

Uncle Monty

Why don't you try it for yourself? Ye Gods, this was only ever supposed to be a pointer to something interesting - or potentially so. Now those of us who have enjoyed the experience are not only short-changing ourselves - it's not the real thing, you know - we're delusional as well.

FFS, I give up.

Que?! To the limited extent I understand that, I think you're thinking I'm taking this terribly seriously! Not so. It's just that I vaguely remember doing a Psychology degree, so long ago that Freud was probably still alive, and it was impressed on us that vision is about far more than the eyes, and hearing about far more than the ears. I just thought it was slightly interesting, but I may be eccentric

And of course I'll be using the DCH, absolutely wonderful. Fear not

Uncle Monty

Why don't you try it for yourself? Ye Gods, this was only ever supposed to be a pointer to something interesting - or potentially so. Now those of us who have enjoyed the experience are not only short-changing ourselves - it's not the real thing, you know - we're delusional as well.

FFS, I give up.

I'm not doubting Petrushka and his ears for a moment (!) but I wonder if for some people there might be a psychological component to this? The picture on the DCH is so startling that I for one might well be willingly seduced into thinking the sound quality was better than it was.

As it happens, analysis reports that I'm firing on 320, but even if I were not, I wonder. . .

[Bryn]

The BBC iPlayer tends to have headroom of around 6dB in my experience. When using Total Recorder to save from it, for instance, a record level of +5dB tends to be safe enough. When ipdl.exe was working, the 192kbps mp3s it grabbed also showed similar headroom. Programmes which intercept the HD Sound stream again show plenty of headroom. "It's better than risking clipping", seems to be the rationale.

[johnb]

Thanks Mahlerei, that's very useful. I guess that the Test Video must be in the 'MediumVideo' format.