Are (were) Gilbert and Sullivan really so bad?

[Dave2002]

The title says it all really? It seems to me that despite many people saying that they don't like Gilbert and Sullivan, there's not so much to dislike in their works really. Gilbert's words are probably outdated now, but presumably were witty at the time, and Sullivan's music seems mostly to be moderately well written/constructed - or is it really just rubbish?

I'm not suggesting that Sullivan's music is great, but that it's not as bad as some detractors would have it. Was he the equivalent of Andrew Lloyd Webber in his time? What about other composers from other countries, such as Offenbach and Johann Strauss who also wrote music in similar vein. Lehar?

I am prompted to write this because I thought I'd revisit some recordings by Malcolm Sargent on Spotify - and having heard Mars from the Planets the player crashed on through a few other pieces - including Heifetz playing Elgar's violin concerto, and now there's clearly a run of G&S coming up. I shall go out shortly!

[rauschwerk]

You only have to listen to Pineapple Poll or the Overture di ballo to realise that Sullivan's best tunes were quite the equal of anything by Offenbach, and will endure far longer than anything at all by ALW!

[Ferretfancy]

raushwerk

Here!Here!
Ferret

[Uncle Monty]

Yes, I agree. I was surprised to read so much dismissive comment on here about G & S. I don't suppose I'd want to listen to them every day, but I've been in some of the operettas (who hasn't?), and I've certainly had some lovely evenings in the audience. Great period charm, and the best of the arias (e.g. The sun whose rays, I have a song to sing-o, etc.) are at least as good as any of the competition. No one, least of all G & S, ever claimed they were setting out to rival Parsifal. And I certainly wouldn't insult them by comparing them in any way to Lloyd Webber. Give 'em a break!

[french frank]

"Are (were) Gilbert and Sullivan really so bad? "

Gosh, no: why not replace the word 'bad' with 'good'? Like my favourite uncle, "I don't suppose I'd want to listen to them every day". In fact I think I may have grown out of them entirely. But 'bad'? Never! Gilbert must have been one of the wittiest and most intelligent librettists ever. Ever! Sullivan wrote the music to go with those shows.

I now feel blasé ("uninterested because of frequent exposure or indulgence"). But the development of my personal tastes doesn't detract one jot from the quality of G&S.

[vinteuil]

I'm not suggesting that Sullivan's music is great, but that it's not as bad as some detractors would have it. Was he the equivalent of Andrew Lloyd Webber in his time? What about other composers from other countries, such as Offenbach and Johann Strauss who also wrote music in similar vein. Lehar?

In my view - really so bad. As bad as Offenbach, J Strauss, Lehar, A Lloyd Webber. I think there's another thread which touches on music against which one wd rush for the off-switch - for me, this wd be the case for all of the above...

[aeolium]

In my view - very good. The best and most varied musical pastiche and much better than the continental operetta equivalents. Of course the output is varied - some G&S is a good deal better than the lesser stuff. Most of these works are still in the repertoire after more than a century, and widely performed in the English-speaking world. There was definitely a place for well-written lighter/comic operetta in the vernacular in the C19 and they filled it in this country. And unlike most opera, it is performable by non-professional companies. Good on them, I say.

[Alison]

I'd be pleased to see G & S if I were on holiday somewhere and it happened to be on.
Somewhere like the Minack Theatre in Cornwall.

Not really something to collect on CD or DVD though. The orchestral music of Sullivan
is certainly of interest.

[salymap]

Gilbert and Sullivan wrote some of the best light music around, but it can be spoilt by dreadful performances.
Not just amateur ones either. I was given a set of dvds for Christmas with the abysmal Frankie Howerd speaking and mucking up some of the best patter songs in the set.And the words aren't always so dated. Listen to the sentry's song in Iolanthe for instance.

[aeolium]

I completely agree about the dreadful performances, salymap. Frankie Howerd should never have been allowed near G&S - I doubt he could sing in his bath.

On the other hand there have been some very good G&S performers. One of my favourites was Donald Adams, a superb voice.

[Don Basilio]

I can understand why they irritate, due to the sort of adulation they used to have in some quarters - the satire was regarded as extremely complacent, and they functioned as culture-for-philistines - "O I don't like opera, but I like Gilbert-and-Sullivan." In fact both Sullivan and Gilbert were well aware of the operatic conventions they parodied - "Stay Frederic stay" in Pirates is a complete Gran Scena e Duetto in just over five minutes.

Mike Leigh has some interesting things to say in his introduction to the Penguin texts - they are not satires so much as absurd.

[Mandryka]

I strongly dislike all of their work that I have heard.

Gilbert's words I find pompous and uninspiring; Sulliavan's tunes do nothing at all for me.

And I don't find their work funny.

I don't like to be in agreement with Sir Peter Hall on anything, but I have to say I agree with him that they were rubbish.

[Chris Newman]

I believe that comparing the Frog Prince with Sullivan is unfair. AL-W's music shows his derivative nature without it him acknowledging it. Sullivan's use of quotation from Berlioz, Mendelssohn, Rossini, Schubert, Verdi and Wagner is done deliberately and tongue in cheek rather like the perpetrators of music in Gerard Hoffnung's concerts. I find G & S good value when well done.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There was a superb Ruddigore production by Opera North a couple of years ago. Experiencing this eclipsed all the run-of-the-mill D'Oyley Carte productions of earlier years (though it's sad that they are no longer around). Any music deserves the best performance if it is to be played at all, and G & S is no exception.
And I agree with Salymap that many of the words are not dated; human nature doesn't change.

When I teach orchestration, I don't refer my students (in the first instance) to Berlioz, Tchaikovsky, Mahler or Strauss. I suggest they borrow ideas from Sullivan, who was highly skilled, both in his orchestral balance and in his ability to balance the orchestra and voices.

Oh, and if you want something a little stronger, I recommend Sullivan's Ivanhoe.

[Ferretfancy]

I recall going to see The Mikado with an ageing John Reed at Sadlers Wells, and it was horrendous, dreadful orchestral playing, out of tune chorus, you name it. On the other hand, the ENO productions of Iolanthe, Patience, and the current revival of The Mikado have all been excellent.
I think the whole fossilised D'Oyley Carte tradition, with its lovingly preserved stage business and endless encores has done G&S a grave disservice.