Feedback 13 May 2022

[gurnemanz]

Great photo and I do mean it when I say in retrospect, well done, you high culture chaps in suits, but I also remember being around at the time when the BBC in its best Auntie/men in suits phase hardly acknowledged the music that I, my sisters and my friends actually wanted to listen to (which was not either the Billy Cotton Band Show or Hindemith). We had to tune in to Radio Luxemburg on 208 medium wave in lousy reception, or later the pirate radio stations, which were my staple listening as a teenager. By the time the Beeb actually responded in 1967 I was already into classical music (thanks in great part to R3) and had gone beyond what Radio One, a kind of legalised pirate station, had to offer.

Ironical that nowadays the BBC gets it in the neck from self-designated members of the cultural elite like me for so-called dumbing down. In 1959 I would have welcomed some dumbing down.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Great photo and I do mean it when I say in retrospect, well done, you high culture chaps in suits, but I also remember being around at the time when the BBC in its best Auntie/men in suits phase hardly acknowledged the music that I, my sisters and my friends actually wanted to listen to (which was not either the Billy Cotton Band Show or Hindemith). We had to tune in to Radio Luxemburg on 208 medium wave in lousy reception, or later the pirate radio stations, which were my staple listening as a teenager. By the time the Beeb actually responded in 1967 I was already into classical music (thanks in great part to R3) and had gone beyond what Radio One, a kind of legalised pirate station, had to offer.

Ironical that nowadays the BBC gets it in the neck from self-designated members of the cultural elite like me for so-called dumbing down. In 1959 I would have welcomed some dumbing down.

And that in a nutshell is the problem - you can’t please everybody.

[french frank]

And that in a nutshell is the problem - you can’t please everybody.

Just briefly: but you can have a damn good try when you're running ten different radio stations (not counting the World Service), plus a couple of spin-offs (Radio1 Dance, Radio 1 Relax &c).

[french frank]

Very interesting that his agent scotched the idea of going public.

Yes, Radio 3 is an important patron. Contemporary musicians in particular (whom we were attempting to recruit) relied for serious income from Radio 3.

It strikes me there are two irreconcilable or perhaps paradoxical cultural trends. Serious music has never been more readily available. Fifty years to get a score and listen to a Beethoven string quarterl I had to go to Lewisham or Westminster Public Library (it had a superb music library) and get it or buy an expensive Eulenberg score at Foyles . Now I can either but a cheap Dover score or download for free from IMSLP. The music is free on a low qual streamer or high qual for a mere £10 a month. Scholarly articles on the quartets are available on the internet or through JSTOR. In short it’s never been easier to access “high” culture .

Undeniably true. But no more true (perhaps less so) than accessibility to popular/light culture. In so far as radio has expanded for classical music' in the UK, it's been Classic FM and Radio Scala that have come up with the 'easier' options. No demand - allegedly - for more focused, undiluted 'high culture'. Relatively less of it, and more diluted.

At the same time our main broadcasters are slowly withdrawing from mass audience classical music - ITV used to broadcast Glyndebourne on the channel in the 70’s and 80’s . Saturday night on BBC 2 in the 70’s was very often an opera or a classical concert.That’s virtually all gone . Even BBC 4 now gives over an entire evening each week to eighties and nineties pop / rock .Radio 3 now rarely broadcasts anything other than chunks before midday.

I wouldn't dispute any of that.

So is there some link ? Is there an assumption that because you can get “the real deal” so readily for free or near free the broadcaster should provide something else?

In the BBC's case, the broadcaster has been providing something else, long after the arrival of Radio 1: Radio 1 Xtra, the Asian network, 6 Music, the aforementioned Radio 1s Relax and Dance; plus a rising tide on Radio 3.

Or is it all about attracting and retaining the casual listener ?

That. Follow the masses. People's attitudes to radio listening has surely changed?

Or is classical music pretty much dying out as a mass taste? By mass I mean drawing in millions on TV not 00’s of thousands on radio - though in fact most 18th and 19th century musicians would have been ecstatic at 100,000 listeners - the equivalent of 50 full Covent Gardens.

Yes, it does depend how you interpret a 'mass audience'. I read somewhere that Alan Bennett said a wider audience had listened to the History Boys on Radio 3 than had seen it in the theatre. It had a pretty small radio audience, but was the equivalent of filling any number of provincial theatres, or a three-week run in one packed theatre.

[cloughie]

And that in a nutshell is the problem - you can’t please everybody.

And the ageing listeners are probably the most difficult to please but the ‘suits’ continue with their selective deaf ear!

[Serial_Apologist]

Undeniably true. But no more true (perhaps less so) than accessibility to popular/light culture. In so far as radio has expanded for classical music' in the UK, it's been Classic FM and Radio Scala that have come up with the 'easier' options. No demand - allegedly - for more focused, undiluted 'high culture'. Relatively less of it, and more diluted.

There was the onset of Postmodernist thinking in the 1960s which was probably an important part of the shift - the breakdown of divisions between High and Low culture, so-called; but that in part reflected the sophistication the best of the pop and rock music of the era was then offering - along with top-down notions of philanthropy dragging the masses who were now big spenders into "higher" échelons of taste. One vaguely recalls a BBC announcer of a blues with a title such as "I don't wanna have no more of that jelly roll" in a ridiculous cut-glass RP accent being satirized at the time: the new dialects being promulgated by the Pirates would be brought on board too that end with the launch of Radio 1. We all thought the upper class twit types Thatcher would bring back in droves were things of the past, to be lampooned in James Bond and other fashionable movies of the time.

How much is guilt among the upper orders also part of the subtext? The discredited notion of white Western superiority in the arts that downgraded jazz and various forms of non-European World Music? If emancipation for discriminated against swelling minority populations was to be rectified and compensated in capitalist terms, it would (a) have to appeal to and create a market beyond the white demographic, and (b) ensure that the product be presented as sufficiently acceptable to mainstream consumers to sell profitably. The BBC with its reputation for seeking to be all things to all men and women would prove admirably suitable in its auxiliary role to this quest.

[french frank]

If emancipation for discriminated against swelling minority populations was to be rectified and compensated in capitalist terms, it would (a) have to appeal to and create a market beyond the white demographic, and (b) ensure that the product be presented as sufficiently acceptable to mainstream consumers to sell profitably. The BBC with its reputation for seeking to be all things to all men and women would prove admirably suitable in its auxiliary role to this quest.

The argument, though, is why a wider range had to be provided on Radio 3 when there were so many new platforms, BBC and others, to provide a counterbalance (or overbalance!) to the traditional "high culture" (unsatisfactory expression, but how to describe it in a way that doesn't suggest that "high culture" is somehow better than other cultures - but is equally valid)?

[Serial_Apologist]

The argument, though, is why a wider range had to be provided on Radio 3 when there were so many new platforms, BBC and others, to provide a counterbalance (or overbalance!) to the traditional "high culture" (unsatisfactory expression, but how to describe it in a way that doesn't suggest that "high culture" is somehow better than other cultures - but is equally valid)?

I venture to suggest that Radio 3 has taken more than the lion's share of the burden for the fact that it had epitomised the very "high culture" that was now to be denigrated at the hands of - let's not mince words - cultural philistines in politics and the populist media mouthing on about taxpayers in the general arts and TV licence fee payers forking out supposedly lavish funding to cater for the tastes of a privileged minority. Simply put, it basically amounts to the populist Right in the mass media co-opting a misrepresented version of anti-imperialist leftist rhetoric around "cultural appropriation" - to avoid which the proportion of "high culture" formerly predominating in what has over the decades become Radio 3 programming must be reduced and "more fairly" shared out with other genres signifying new, more enlightened views about the value of other cultures in a multicultural society and world. I think that just about sums it up.

[french frank]

I think that just about sums it up.

I think it does

Also:

“Some people don’t think music is something you should think too hard about. That’s fine, but it’s not right to criticise those that want to get something more out of it. It was never about publishing writing that is difficult to understand but about trying to open music up and shine a light on it. Not to sell it out by cheapening it. You have to give it the respect and intelligent treatment it deserves. If that’s elitist then so be it.”

Classical music? No, of course not (the quote is from The Guardian). It's about the new 'unclassified' uncategorisable music which now finds a place on Radio 3 - where classical music is not cheapened but given intelligent treatment? Well, no. On Breakfast and Essential Classics - peak radio listening times - among others, it's cheapened. People like Alyn Shipton don't cheapen jazz, people like Anne Hilde Neset (mentioned in this article) don't, I imagine, cheapen the music they introduce. As far as I've been able to judge, not even Elizabeth Alker cheapens the music she introduces in the late evenings. It's only classical music which has to be spoonfed to listeners. I don't have a problem with people - anyone - enjoying the relaxing mix. Just don't try to fool people that this is "intelligent treatment". Especially when they expand the amount of non-classical music - swathes of it - on Radio 3.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think it does

Also:

“Some people don’t think music is something you should think too hard about. That’s fine, but it’s not right to criticise those that want to get something more out of it. It was never about publishing writing that is difficult to understand but about trying to open music up and shine a light on it. Not to sell it out by cheapening it. You have to give it the respect and intelligent treatment it deserves. If that’s elitist then so be it.”

Classical music? No, of course not (the quote is from The Guardian). It's about the new 'unclassified' uncategorisable music which now finds a place on Radio 3 - where classical music is not cheapened but given intelligent treatment? Well, no. On Breakfast and Essential Classics - peak radio listening times - among others, it's cheapened. People like Alyn Shipton don't cheapen jazz, people like Anne Hilde Neset (mentioned in this article) don't, I imagine, cheapen the music they introduce. As far as I've been able to judge, not even Elizabeth Alker cheapens the music she introduces in the late evenings. It's only classical music which has to be spoonfed to listeners. I don't have a problem with people - anyone - enjoying the relaxing mix. Just don't try to fool people that this is "intelligent treatment". Especially when they expand the amount of non-classical music - swathes of it - on Radio 3.

I don’t think Radio 3 has “cheapened” classical music. Before the days of recording and broadcasting classical music (excluding Church music) was largely the preserve of the elite - indeed in the days of Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven a super elite of Viennese aristocrats. Now recorded classical music is virtually free to all - it is “cheaper” than chips. What Radio 3 does do is provide at least 3 to 4 hours of live (or recorded as live ) classical music every day . More if you include Afternoon concert . All the presentation is done to a high standard. No one else in the UK is doing that .
You obviously don’t like the bleeding chunks pre- noon. To be honest I would often prefer whole pieces . But Clearly quite a lot of others do like that and to justify its huge cost per head compared to Radios 1 and 2 there has to be some attempt to draw in a mass audience - mass in the sense of 00’s of thousands not the millions that Network TV delivers at the same time.
There’s nothing new or cheap about the excerpt approach to classical music. Excerpts , re arrangements, placing of popular music of the day was common in 19th century concert culture and indeed in the early days of the Proms . Those concerts were often a pot-pourri. Arguably they’d had to be to draw in an audience for what was an expensive undertaking . These days the BBC Symphony can schedule a concert of Schoenberg, Berg , Webern and not have to worry whether tickets sell. Thankfully as tastes change and evolve composers like Mahler who would once have baffled a London audience now sell out . To sum up the harsh facts I’m afraid are that classical music fans and particularly opera fans like me are amongst the most heavily subsidised cultural consumers in the world. We’re only in that position because there still seems to be a common assumption that “high” culture has a value that means subsidising it is a mark of a “civilised” society . We could very easily move to the US cultural assumption where there is virtually no public subsidy for either the Arts or broadcasting.

[kernelbogey]

What Radio 3 does do is provide at least 3 to 4 hours of live (or recorded as live ) classical music every day . More if you include Afternoon concert . All the presentation is done to a high standard. No one else in the UK is doing that.

I agree with most of Herr Held's post, and would add to the above statement 6 hours of TTN (at least, on six days a week, 4 hours on Saturdays!) which is all 'as live' - with high standard, concise presentation.

You obviously don’t like the bleeding chunks pre- noon. To be honest I would often prefer whole pieces.

Agree with this view. And clearly many others on this Forum don't like 'bleeding chunks'.

But Clearly quite a lot of others do like that and to justify its huge cost per head compared to Radios 1 and 2 there has to be some attempt to draw in a mass audience...

So arguably, R3 is endeavouring to serve several 'markets' for 'classical' music, and at least ten out of 24 hours' broadcasting serves the 'traditionalist' audience: maybe close to 12/24 if you consider COTW, Early Music Show and other speech+music regulars.

There’s nothing new or cheap about the excerpt approach to classical music.

Indeed - and the idea of broadcasting complete concerts/works is arguably a Reithian idea of its own time: after all, the Third Programme originally ran (IIRC) for about five hours each evening.

To sum up the harsh facts I’m afraid are that classical music fans and particularly opera fans like me are amongst the most heavily subsidised cultural consumers in the world. We’re only in that position because there still seems to be a common assumption that “high” culture has a value that means subsidising it is a mark of a “civilised” society.

Yes, that is an assumption that is perhaps not so much 'common' as a fundamental belief among those who personally value the arts (so, in the view of some, an 'elitist' position).

We could very easily move to the US cultural assumption where there is virtually no public subsidy for either the Arts or broadcasting.

So true.

What is missing from this thread, I think, is acknowledgement that the capacity for listening by streaming is available to all: any of us - diehard traditionalists included! - can (if they educate themselves) have any of the R3 output on their devices to listen to at any time.

Though fundamentally a 'traditionalist' I am moving (reluctantly) to the view that those who actively want the Breakfast/Essential Classics model can have it for 5-6 hours a day, because i have to 'share' my consumption of R3 with them.

[DracoM]

All of which has driven me to https://areena.yle.fi/audio/ohjelmat/yle-klassinen

[AuntDaisy]

...
What Radio 3 does do is provide at least 3 to 4 hours of live (or recorded as live ) classical music every day . More if you include Afternoon concert . All the presentation is done to a high standard. No one else in the UK is doing that .

"or recorded as live" made me smile. It reminded me of the oft used "recorded in front of a live audience" - as opposed to a "dead" one, presumably?

I agree with most of Herr Held's post, and would add to the above statement 6 hours of TTN (at least, on six days a week, 4 hours on Saturdays!) which is all 'as live' - with high standard, concise presentation.

[Serial_Apologist]

I don’t think Radio 3 has “cheapened” classical music. Before the days of recording and broadcasting classical music (excluding Church music) was largely the preserve of the elite - indeed in the days of Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven a super elite of Viennese aristocrats. Now recorded classical music is virtually free to all - it is “cheaper” than chips.

That fact didn't make it right though - any more than it does today; all it shows is that levels of disrespect given to composers and musicians have not changed that much in 300 years! Would not composers be bothered about having their works fragmented, rather than in the manner in which they had been composed, with each movement calculated in its placement as part of a continuum deserving of its entirety if is to make any sense?

There’s nothing new or cheap about the excerpt approach to classical music. Excerpts , re arrangements, placing of popular music of the day was common in 19th century concert culture and indeed in the early days of the Proms . Those concerts were often a pot-pourri. Arguably they’d had to be to draw in an audience for what was an expensive undertaking. These days the BBC Symphony can schedule a concert of Schoenberg, Berg , Webern and not have to worry whether tickets sell.

Why do you think it is that such a concert programme would undersell? Especially as you go on to say that...

Thankfully as tastes change and evolve composers like Mahler who would once have baffled a London audience now sell out . To sum up the harsh facts I’m afraid are that classical music fans and particularly opera fans like me are amongst the most heavily subsidised cultural consumers in the world. We’re only in that position because there still seems to be a common assumption that “high” culture has a value that means subsidising it is a mark of a “civilised” society . We could very easily move to the US cultural assumption where there is virtually no public subsidy for either the Arts or broadcasting.

Disproportionate subsidizing for opera is a different matter from funding for other more neglected areas of musical activity, and maybe "high opera" really has had its day, and is due for a re-think along scaled down lines. Some venues have promoted cheaper tickets for school trips in order to offset the idea of opera as being elitist - I don't know if they still do this; but the whole accusation of "elitism" is an inverted form of snobbery half-intended for populist reasons to reinforce the very hostility that discourages many from attending concerts, ballets and operas. The reality that there is nothing intrinsically elitist in classical music from whatever period or sub-genre is evidenced in the degree of influence it has itself exerted on the supposed "lower orders" of music. The only thing elitist about it consists in those who would want to keep it and its culture all to themselves - a diminishing demographic, surely,, if the views and experiences expressed on this forum are anything to go by?

[french frank]

I don’t think Radio 3 has “cheapened” classical music.

I've been away listening to the Breakfast Gold Standard: Petroc's Classical Alarm Call from this morning. One can only say "De gustibus non disputandum". If you can listen to it without pain, you will have a positive view of it. I managed the first hour and a half and took notes. It's the same points (De gustibus) that aren't/can't be denied. It's not just the extracts. It's the length of the 'complete' pieces - far too short for me so that it's just a ragbag of 6-minute+ pieces: Handel-Dora Bright (more of something else on the evening concert)-Anoushka Shankar trail for her programme-Jenny McLeod-Satie-Ricci-Brett Dean-News and Weather (again)-Puccini-invitation to people to get in contact with the show.…and so on.

Antoine Tamestit played Telemann and will be on Afternoon Concert, Steven Osborne also gave a cracking recital in Inverness yesterday-today is Norwegian Constitution day, carnival and ice creams and Greig (tweet from listener about being in Norway on Constitution Day)-Marianna Martines was a friend of Beethoven and Haydn and something else on Afternoon Concert, Satie and Ricci have the same birthday (today)-five-star review of Brett Dean's Hamlet somewhere...

But you're quite right: 'clearly quite a lot of others do like that'. I could go on, but these days I bore even myself.