Conductor/orchestra partnerships....

[jayne lee wilson]

Are they a thing of the past?

Listening to - marvelling at - the Debussy series of RCOA/Haitink and CBSO/Rattle recently, I heard that finesse, delicacy and sensitivity which perhaps can only come from a deep, long-nurtured partnership. Both instinctively responsive, and founded upon profound (musical and aesthetic) knowledge - of each other, and of the music....

Where might we find them now…?
If YNS stays in Philadelphia beyond…..say, 10 years, well, very promising… but will the labels tempt him elsewhere before too long?
This conductor has given us some wonderful creations in Canada (Métropolitain) and with the COE, but…. these special relationships need time…

Where else might we look for such new beginnings and future bonds…?
Or is the concept outmoded in itself..? Is there “love at first sight” between orchestras and conductors…..?
Drawbacks?

Feel (very) free to comment on your past favourites, back to - Toscanini, Mengelberg, Reiner…..etc….

Are there any you always dislike?

[bluestateprommer]

Are they a thing of the past?

Where might we find them now…?

In today's hyper-jet-set world, that kind of long-term conductor-orchestra relationship is indeed probably a thing of the past. There are a very few exceptions now:
1. Budapest Festival Orchestra & Ivan Fischer: 35 years and going
2. San Francisco Symphony & Michael Tilson Thomas: 23 years, to finish off in 2020 for 25 years
3. Atlanta Symphony Orchestra & Robert Spano: 17 years, to end in 2021 at 20 years
4. Minnesota Orchestra & Osmo Vanska: 15 years (with a major roadblock not of his doing), to conclude in 2022 at 19 years
5. Cleveland Orchestra & FW-M: 16 years and going
6. Mariinsky Theatre & Gergiev: ~20 years and going
7. St. Petersburg Philharmonic & Temirkanov: ~20 years and going
8. Israel Philharmonic Orchestra & Zubin Mehta: 50 (!!) years, to end next year
9. The Halle & Sir Mark Elder: 18 years and going

There are a myriad of factors too numerous and complicated to name. Thinking of a past partnership like Mengelberg and the Concertgebouw Orchestra as an example, one factor of that era was that there was plenty of new music being composed to complement the standard repertoire. Another way to say that is that one can only recycle the standard repertoire so many times with one conductor in charge of an orchestra before one side or the other goes "what can we do with this now, again?".

In the USA, at least, another factor is the multiple duties of a music director, with not just programming and auditions, but fund-raising & schmoozing with donors, and public outreach. Haitink once said something to this effect in an old Chicago Tribune article:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2007-06-03-0706010401-story.html

'Haitink voiced concerns about the expanded role of music directors in America, which involve many non-musical responsibilities such as fund-raising, being a liaison with the community and other duties that never were expected of a conductor during his years as artistic chief of the Concertgebouw Orchestra (1964-88) and the London Philharmonic (1967-79). Conductors, he said, are being stretched too thin in the process.

"When I started at the Concertgebouw, the conductor was responsible for the music, and that was it; an artistic manager and a business manager took care of the rest. That has all changed. Nowadays the duties of a music director are far too much for one person. And the people who are available to fill those positions never want to give that much time to their orchestras. And the 'sell-by' date of a conductor is maybe a little bit shorter now."'

These days, 10 years for a conductor to stay in one place is itself unusual. If you go with that time frame, then this widens the net to include other partnerships:
* LA Phil & Dudamel (since 2009)
* Pittsburgh SO & Honeck (since 2008)
* Swedish RSO & Harding (since 2007)
* Baltimore SO & Marin Alsop (since 2005)
* Bournemouth SO & Karabits (since 2008)
* RLPO & Vasily Petrenko (since 2006)
* LPO & Vladimir Jurowski (since 2007, to end in 2021)
* Philharmonia & Salonen (since 2008, to end in 2021)

There may also be simple human nature, and how long the two sides feel in "living with each other" for an extended period, i.e. how long the relationship takes to run its course. Perhaps the classic US example recently was Gerard Schwarz and the Seattle Symphony, which was 26 years, and may have overstayed his welcome a bit much that way. OTOH, if the partnership is happy and both sides can keep it fresh, there's no reason not to keep going.

[DracoM]

Liverpool Phil / Petrenko.

[ardcarp]

Brilliant piece of research there Blues-p, (Post #2)
Thanks.

[mathias broucek]

And what of those conductors who were better when visiting? Thinking of Szell in Amsterdam and Vienna, or Late Lennie in the same places... Or in an earlier age, Kleiber per in Cologne or Covent Garden?

But sticking to the plot, has no one mentioned Reiner?

[Beef Oven!]

Brilliant piece of research there Blues-p, (Post #2)
Thanks.

Seconded

[Beef Oven!]

Feel (very) free to comment on your past favourites, back to - Toscanini, Mengelberg, Reiner…..etc….

Karajan - Artistic Director of the Berlin Philharmonic for over 34 years! The greatest ever, IMVHO

[Beef Oven!]

Sir Reginald Goodall ENO & predecessor organisations, over 30 years! The greatest ever Wagner conductor/singer coach ever, IMVHO!

[Petrushka]

Karajan - Artistic Director of the Berlin Philharmonic for over 34 years! The greatest ever, IMVHO

Surely Karajan takes top spot in any consideration of orchestra/conductor partnerships? He does for me anyway. My CD shelves are full of these unforgettable partnerships which still have a special magic about them: Solti/Chicago, Haitink/Concertgebouw, Szell/Cleveland, Kubelik/BRSO, Rattle/CBSO etc, You can't think of one without the other most of the time.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I was at a session at ROH "Wagner and me" - Robert Lloyd interviewed before an audience. He described the genesis of the ENO Ring, and also, how for a Wagner role, singers in London would make their way to "Reggies Lair" at Covent Garden. It was a cupboard, with buckets and mops for the cleaners near the door, and the piano and Reggie at the far end. He'd gone to look for it, and its now a lift shaft.

[cloughie]

And what of those conductors who were better when visiting? Thinking of Szell in Amsterdam and Vienna, or Late Lennie in the same places... Or in an earlier age, Kleiber per in Cologne or Covent Garden?

But sticking to the plot, has no one mentioned Reiner?

I’ll do it then Reiner!

[cloughie]

I’ll do it then Reiner!

I’m a fan and his Chicago reign from 1953-63 produced some superb recordings, particularly of Richard Strauss. Another partnership at that time was Boston and Munch, 1949-62. The bargain RCA Victrola recordings, a mainstay of my purchases in the mid 60s, were a joy to acquire!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is JEGgers & English Baroque Soloists/OR&R (working together for 40 years) "cheating"?

From the past, a few other names come to mind: Klemperer/PhilO; Mravinsky/LeningradPO; Kempe/Munich; Ansermet/OSR; Ormandy/Philadelphians; Gibson/SNO; Groves/LiverpoolPO; and ... well, where is Barbi, anyway?

[pastoralguy]

Sir Alexander Gibson and the SNO. 25 years!

[Beef Oven!]

Sir Alexander Gibson and the SNO. 25 years!