BaL 13.04.24 - Brahms: Symphony 3

[makropulos]

I agree wholeheartedly. I listened again to Weingartner, and was struck by how fast he is, getting through the whole symphony in just under half an hour. Yet it never sounds rushed, just well-proportioned. Walter's first recording, with the Vienna Philharmonic in 1936, is also swift at 29'41 according to my Koch Legacy CD; but again,there is no sense of haste. Of course the repeat is omitted as was common on 78s.

I was amused to read that Sir Arnold Bax, of all people, had a theory that this symphony represented the Four Seasons, as he explained to Peter Latham , who related the idea in his sleeve note ot the Klemperer recording, 33CX 1536, its first appearance. Incidentally, fans of Dennnis Brain can hear him in this recording, his only one of this symphony, I think.

There's a comprehensive online discography of Dennis Brain's recordings by Robert L. Marshall who says: 'Brain could hardly have taken part in Otto Klemperer's recording of the Brahms Symphony No. 3, recorded on 26 and 27 March 1957, since he was on a solo tour in Scotland from about the 23rd to the 28th of that month.' According to Marshall, he is the first horn on the live RFH Toscanini performance and Cantelli's recording from August 1955. For anyone interested, the link is here: https://www.hornsociety.org/home/dow...scography/file

[makropulos]

What about Guido Cantelli, recorded 16 August 1955 in the Kingsway Hall. I don't have it to hand for a listen but Brain might have been playing in the orchestra??

Yes, Brain's on that – but not on Klemperer's record.

[makropulos]

There's a comprehensive online discography of Dennis Brain's recordings by Robert L. Marshall who says: 'Brain could hardly have taken part in Otto Klemperer's recording of the Brahms Symphony No. 3, recorded on 26 and 27 March 1957, since he was on a solo tour in Scotland from about the 23rd to the 28th of that month.' According to Marshall, he is the first horn on the live RFH Toscanini performance and Cantelli's recording from August 1955. For anyone interested, the link is here: https://www.hornsociety.org/home/dow...scography/file

I should add that I only discovered this a few weeks ago when I was checking my notes for the BAL. I had put 'Brain? Check' in my notes on Klemperer's recording – as I was thinking of saying exactly the same thing as smittims... but apparently it really wasn't Brain that day.

[smittims]

Thanks. makropoulos; it's always good to have accuracy! I was going by an old obituary which promised record collectors that they would hear him in the Columbia recordings of all four Brahms symphonies. It's some tribute to his influence that other horn players sometimes sounded like him, for instance Alan Civil in the recording of Strauss' Capriccio, where an American magazine mistook him for Dennis Brain.

I had forgotten the Philharmonia / Toscanini recordings, and I confess I did not know Cantelli had recorded the Third. Thanks once again for 'putting the record straight'. .

[makropulos]

Thanks. makropoulos; it's always good to have accuracy! I was going by an old obituary which promised record collectors that they would hear him in the Columbia recordings of all four Brahms symphonies. It's some tribute to his influence that other horn players sometimes sounded like him, for instance Alan Civil in the recording of Strauss' Capriccio, where an American magazine mistook him for Dennis Brain.

I had forgotten the Philharmonia / Toscanini recordings, and I confess I did not know Cantelli had recorded the Third. Thanks once again for 'putting the record straight'. .

The Toscanini Philharmonia Brahms series is well worth hearing – not so much for No. 3, but some of the others, though I remember an irritating bit of orchestral retouching in the finale of No. 1 (Toscanini not the only culprit there). The Pristine version of the Toscanini/Philharmonia concerts also includes Sir Adrian's interval speech which is very touching. I think it's in slightly better sound than the Testament issue, which doesn't have Boult's speech.

[akiralx]

For me it's VPO/Levine on DG.

[smittims]

Yes, unless he goes for a HIPP version I expect the VPO will be front runners, though I'd think Abbado would be a head by a short neck, unless he's a Bernstein fan , in which case heaven help us.

I find I do have a Cantelli Brahms 3, though it's the NBC S.O. in 1951. And just to complete the possibility of Dennis Brain recordings, Giulini's version with the Philharmonia was in 1962 when sadly Dennis was no more, and while Karajan might have recorded it with this orchestra, in fact (unles sa broadcast tape turns up) his first version was with the VPO in 1961 during his Decca years.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes, there will. That much I can say For me, the issue is not so much a harmonic argument as one about structure and formal balance.

Except that Brahms himself said his exposition repeats were unnecessary if the audience had already heard the work. However, this doesn’t solve the problem, as an audience will almost always be a mixture of those who have/haven’t heard it before. But for me, an exposition repeat is always a structurally dodgy concept, as the composer has already presented the material and has made the important key change in preparation for the development. Jumping back to the beginning is like being told to reread the first chapter of a book.

[vinteuil]

Jumping back to the beginning is like being told to reread the first chapter of a book.

... which is often an excellent idea

.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes, unless he goes for a HIPP version I expect the VPO will be front runners, though I'd think Abbado would be a head by a short neck, unless he's a Bernstein fan , in which case heaven help us.

I’m rather taken with VPO/Bernstein recording. Indeed I have his full set. Also the recorded sound is excellent too, even though early DG digital sound was often rather harsh.
Other VPO recordings of the work I have are Abbado, Barbirolli and Kertesz, though I’m less keen on the Kertesz.

[richardfinegold]

... which is often an excellent idea

.

That was my thought. Particularly when a novel starts en media res, I frequently do return to the first chapter to help understand the context of what happens as the story unfolds. The analogy applies well to the musical context. The problem arises however with potentially jaded listeners such as ourselves that have heard the work perhaps dozens of times. I don’t think that composers prior to 1950 or so foresaw that happening. Someone upthread commented that the show might feature a mix of listeners of great and little familiarity with the work but I suspect that is unlikely, as most listeners will have at the very least heard it a handful of times, and probably more than that.
I remember in my mid twenties hearing Solti perform this with the CSO at Ravinia. It was a miserably hot and humid midwestern summer night and the mosquitoes were having a feast, and damned if he didn’t take every repeat;, and he just didn’t seem to have a feel for Brahms rhetoric with much arbitrariness in rubato. The experience put me off listening to this for years.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Except that Brahms himself said his exposition repeats were unnecessary if the audience had already heard the work. However, this doesn’t solve the problem, as an audience will almost always be a mixture of those who have/haven’t heard it before. But for me, an exposition repeat is always a structurally dodgy concept, as the composer has already presented the material and has made the important key change in preparation for the development. Jumping back to the beginning is like being told to reread the first chapter of a book.

I think there are certain works where I would expect the exposition repeat - most of the Beethoven symphonies example. The exposition of Brahms 3 isn’t that long really - about 3’ 30 “in Abbado .Brahms’ modulatory passage (A minor back to F ) couldn’t be more perfunctory- a mere two bars.
A lot of conductors don’t do the exposition repeat in Brahms 2 - a pity as Brahms actually writes a few more bars for that. I like to hear the repeat in the 3rd mainly because JB spends time in the development working through his material in that way he has so that it’s quite nice to have it fixed in your mind. I’m not even sure that he hasn’t started manipulating the material in the exposition - which is thematically so dense .I can think or worse ways of spending 3 mins 30 on this planet.
That Abbado recording is excellent.

[MickyD]

Yes, unless he goes for a HIPP version I expect the VPO will be front runners, though I'd think Abbado would be a head by a short neck, unless he's a Bernstein fan , in which case heaven help us.

I find I do have a Cantelli Brahms 3, though it's the NBC S.O. in 1951. And just to complete the possibility of Dennis Brain recordings, Giulini's version with the Philharmonia was in 1962 when sadly Dennis was no more, and while Karajan might have recorded it with this orchestra, in fact (unles sa broadcast tape turns up) his first version was with the VPO in 1961 during his Decca years.

Apart from Norrington and Gardiner, are there are any other HIPP contenders?

[AuntDaisy]

Looking forward to this. Will a Fawlty Towers reference slip in?

[HighlandDougie]

Apart from Norrington and Gardiner, are there are any other HIPP contenders?

Apologies, Micky, for my apostasy but Brahms symphonies are a blind spot where my devotion to HiPP falters. Nothing quite as good as full-fat Brahms, IMUV. I have Manze, Venzago and Dausgaard on my shelves (and Chailly) but none of them quite does it for me at the moment like Blomstedt and the wonderfully un-HiPP Gewandhaus Orchestra. I was brought up with Karl Böhm and the VPO on an Ace of Clubs LP (not that wonderful, really, but, aged 8, it sounded terrific to my rather unformed ears) so, in answer to your question, I'm not aware of anyone other than those you mentioned in your post.